Limerick-Ballybrophy Closure

end of the road

ongarboy wrote: »

Can you explain why a bus that would get a passenger from A to B in about the same or probably quicker journey time would not meet the needs of someone? What needs would justify taxpayers money being spent on an infinitely more expensive service? The tea trolley?

"The tea trolley" laughable. i'd suggest you take the train and ask why people use it, or even better, you will get all the answers you require if you read past threads on here discussing the same issues. but for a start, in my case, it's more reliable, takes me exactly where i need to go, offers me the relevant connections on to other services that i need. if my rail service was to go, i'd simply take the car. the bus can never ever meet my needs and it doesn't offer me anything the car doesn't. the railway does, hence i use it and will continue to do so.

L1011

tabbey wrote: »

The Maynooth line has had substantial investment in the last fifteen years.
Clonsilla - Maynooth double track restored.
New footbridges at most or all stations.
New station at Confey.
Platforms extended to eight cars.
New buildings at most stations.

Pretty much all of that at the 15 years ago end of that timescale, though.

ongarboy

end of the road wrote: »

"The tea trolley" laughable. i'd suggest you take the train and ask why people use it, or even better, you will get all the answers you require if you read past threads on here discussing the same issues. but for a start, in my case, it's more reliable, takes me exactly where i need to go, offers me the relevant connections on to other services that i need. if my rail service was to go, i'd simply take the car. the bus can never ever meet my needs and it doesn't offer me anything the car doesn't. the railway does, hence i use it and will continue to do so.

OK, they are somewhat legitimate reasons why someone who relies on and uses those services would want them to be maintained but if there is only a tiny, minuscule number of such people requiring that as been proven by the tumbleweed that blows through those services, then 10s of millions of euros cannot be justified when there is alternative and granted more inconvenienced options available. Most Dublin bound people want to arrive in the city centre which is what coaches do whereas Heuston leaves you 2kms outside the centre with the added hassle of Luas or bus to reach the city centre. Just because the costly status quo meets your individual and a minority of others specific needs isn't good enough.

I agree that public services aren't about spending money to make a profit but if money can't be sourced to benefit 10s of 1000s of other daily public transport travellers preventing the funding of extra bus and rail carriages on high volume routes because it is being used to fund the transport of a few dozen individuals, that is a gross mismanagement of tax payers money.

I'm sorry to say I really think this route will definitely be shut down. The head of IR said on the news that funds cannot be sourced to make the deteriorating network safe if so much of it's finance is being drained on routes such as this and that ultimately IR will not operate an unsafe transport network. If it means you and the couple of dozen others will start taking the car, that will be a blip on the road network that will happily be tolerated by the vast majority who want to see their taxes spent wisely.

n97 mini

Deedsie wrote: »

I just don't think it will be appreciated by future generations when they realise that in 2017 we were still maniacally tearing up rail lines instead of investing in them and making them work.

Future generations will also possibly wonder why we were flogging to death lines built in the mid 1800's, almost 160 years earlier, instead of tearing them up and building new ones that were more fit for purpose.

n97 mini

L1011 wrote: »

Pretty much all of that at the 15 years ago end of that timescale, though.

Much of it done wrong too, e.g. a fortune spent on new stations built for staff and not for customers, which now spend most of their time locked up. Clonsilla staffed for 7 hours a day five days a week, but Clonmel is staffed 16.5 hours a day, six days a week. What's that about?

And despite the majority of stations being in Dublin, it's still the DART's poor relation.

end of the road

ongarboy wrote: »

OK, they are somewhat legitimate reasons why someone who relies on and uses those services would want them to be maintained but if there is only a tiny, minuscule number of such people requiring that as been proven by the tumbleweed that blows through those services, then 10s of millions of euros cannot be justified when there is alternative and granted more inconvenienced options available.

people aren't going to use services that are inconvenient. the particular line being discussed having few users is simply that line having few users. the majority of the network has good usership with lots of room for growth, and it's viable. this line is a gonner but we will get nothing in return for it's closure. no savings, no money back in our pockets, nothing.

ongarboy wrote: »

Most Dublin bound people want to arrive in the city centre which is what coaches do whereas Heuston leaves you 2kms outside the centre with the added hassle of Luas or bus to reach the city centre.

it's not all about heuston, even if CIE themselves think it is . you have connolly services as well. coaches have their market and the intercity services are doing well but they will not be forced on people who don't want to use them, just like rail can't be forced on people who don't wish to use it. road as the only solution to transport full stop is a nonsense argument that belongs back in the 1950s. the particular line being discussed may be beyond saving but the rest isn't and if one believes in public transport they should be calling for it to be brought up to standard as it has a place in ireland. but no doubt we will never grow up and eventually we will have barely a rump of a railway if even that with traffic jams galore and billions having to be spent to facilitate the road only transport solution many seem to want.

ongarboy wrote: »

Just because the costly status quo meets your individual and a minority of others specific needs isn't good enough.

the fact you believe that if we shut the railway you will see money back in your pocket or money spent elsewhere isn't good enough. closing and eventually removing infrastructure on the basis of the fact they're are other services availible yet don't meet people's needs and never will isn't good enough either. it's also madness and costly in the long run.

ongarboy wrote: »

I agree that public services aren't about spending money to make a profit but if money can't be sourced to benefit 10s of 1000s of other daily public transport travellers preventing the funding of extra bus and rail carriages on high volume routes because it is being used to fund the transport of a few dozen individuals, that is a gross mismanagement of tax payers money.

the provision of extra busses and carriges isn't being prevented by use of busses and carriges elsewhere. it's being prevented by the unwillingness to fund our transport system. and it's not just transport, it's all public services that suffer from the same ideals. people need to realise this. cuts to services elsewhere won't bring you extra carriges or busses. that's not how we operate in ireland. once the services are removed the money is gone.

ongarboy wrote: »

I'm sorry to say I really think this route will definitely be shut down.

so do i . but nothing will change because of it. we will get nothing in return for it. it will simply be an exercise to try and convince the politicians savings will be made and costs cut, even though that won't be the case. we will be back here again with another review, another closure, and nothing will change for the rest.

ongarboy wrote: »

The head of IR said on the news that funds cannot be sourced to make the deteriorating network safe if so much of it's finance is being drained on routes such as this and that ultimately IR will not operate an unsafe transport network.

no amount of line closures will free up money to invest in the network that would be left if any. that's the sad reality. government doesn't wish to fund it, people don't wish to pay more unless the service is improved. again that really isn't an issue unique to rail, but rail is an easy target.

ongarboy wrote: »

If it means you and the couple of dozen others will start taking the car, that will be a blip on the road network that will happily be tolerated by the vast majority who want to see their taxes spent wisely.

oh i'm sure the majority will happily tolerate getting nothing for rail closures like has always been the case.

tabbey

ongarboy wrote: »

Can you explain why a bus that would get a passenger from A to B in about the same or probably quicker journey time would not meet the needs of someone? What needs would justify taxpayers money being spent on an infinitely more expensive service? The tea trolley?

Ongarboy will sometime become Ongarmiddleagedman, and realise the need for toilets. Buses seldom meet that need.

tabbey

[QUOTE=n97 mini;101693831 Clonsilla staffed for 7 hours a day five days a week, but Clonmel is staffed 16.5 hours a day, six days a week. What's that about?
[/QUOTE]

It is many years since I saw staff in Clonmel apart from the signalman.

You may refer to the lady in the tearoom, that is a separate entity, not IR.

n97 mini

tabbey wrote: »

It is many years since I saw staff in Clonmel apart from the signalman.

You may refer to the lady in the tearoom, that is a separate entity, not IR.

Only going on this

http://www.irishrail.ie/travel-information/clonmel

ClovenHoof

tabbey wrote: »

Ongarboy will sometime become Ongarmiddleagedman, and realise the need for toilets. Buses seldom meet that need.

The buses all have toilets now.

Del.Monte

tabbey wrote: »

It is many years since I saw staff in Clonmel apart from the signalman.

You may refer to the lady in the tearoom, that is a separate entity, not IR.

I note that the tearoom that you refer to is NOT mentioned on the IR page - how surprising. :rolleyes:

Del.Monte

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The buses all have toilets now.

They don't but I wouldn't be anxious to sample them anyway - tie a knot in it first.

Del.Monte

Just got around to watching RTE's Prime Time programme with Alan Kelly etc. and it was vintage lazy journalism at its best. Instead of going to Nenagh and Roscrea we were treated to close-ups of ancient architecture, signs and water cranes at Ballybrophy. Equally ancient (deliberately chosen?) OAPs were asked for their views..and in studio a smirking Alan Kelly, on a vote gathering exercise, kept demanding investment while not once questioning the operation of existing services, the lack of a proper plan - including a direct curve at Ballybrophy. Alas, such is the lack of planning that has Ireland heading down the pan again.

Show a map of the rail network to any class of primary school children and I bet they could tell you with the aid of a few crayons what needs doing to improve things. The layout at Ballybrophy maybe a train spotters wet dream but it does nothing to aid the development of rail traffic.

Del.Monte

Deedsie wrote: »

I am impressed by the fact that most people here have a reasonable look at this. A proper plan, proper investment would make the Nenagh line a viable Ennis - Limerick - Nenagh - Dublin Main line. Perhaps Castleconnel & Birdhill stations should be closed to improve efficiency?

Expected the majority of people to be cut it and cut it now people.

Is the Waterford to Limerick line or could it become a viable line. An N24 upgrade along with a reliable bus route might be a more suitable approach.

Buses are not an adequate replacement for rail services as has been proved time and again when the replacement bus service itself is withdrawn. The Waterford/Limerick Junction line is a vital long-term cross country link. The development of the railway system through the entry of private operators like Belmond, Railtours Ireland, IWT and DFDS will be completely undermined by any further closures.

n97 mini

I count 29 level crossings on that line. Can someone tell me is this type of LC automatic or manual? It looks manual

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.6635319,-8.5107121,3a,75y,217.47h,93.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s98hYlv0C3mgtHIrntw5NTg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

end of the road

a lot of the crossings are accommodation crossings i think.

Del.Monte

Cheery little notice currently on IE's website - no reason or apology for the inconvenience, just a stark FU message.

n97 mini

Maybe they're upgrading the line?

Heisenberg1

n97 mini wrote: »

I count 29 level crossings on that line. Can someone tell me is this type of LC automatic or manual? It looks manual

https://www.google.ie/maps/@52.6635319,-8.5107121,3a,75y,217.47h,93.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s98hYlv0C3mgtHIrntw5NTg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

That's a manual LC operated by a gatekeeper.

Idbatterim

Article in today's independent! If those kind of times can be shaved off journeys for a tiny investment, why in gods name isn't it been done?! Particularly on cork line?!

Secondly, don't cie own land they could sell off to fund works and provide housing etc?

Thirdly,it appears to me, that for the cost of one of the single rural motorways being built, a huge amount could be done for the entire rail network in the country!!!

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/stormy-times-ahead-seven-issues-down-the-track-for-irish-rail-35228156.html

CrowdedHouse

n97 mini wrote: »

Maybe they're upgrading the line?

Well there was a JCB and several high vis dudes on the line near the bridge at Roscrea golf club yesterday

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

Article in today's independent! If those kind of times can be shaved off journeys for a tiny investment, why in gods name isn't it been done?! Particularly on cork line?!

Secondly, don't cie own land they could sell off to fund works and provide housing etc?

Thirdly,it appears to me, that for the cost of one of the single rural motorways being built, a huge amount could be done for the entire rail network in the country!!!

http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/stormy-times-ahead-seven-issues-down-the-track-for-irish-rail-35228156.html

CIE do have land. the problem is however that the land they would sell is the one that has potential for re-use by the railway. Didn't inchicore works have some of it's land sold off? could have been kept to continue all maintenence there for stock operating in and out of the dublin area rather then having depots half way out the country. so it's a hard one to call, even though in the past i would have agreed with the idea of CIE getting rid of any bit of land it had outside depots stations and tracks.

n97 mini

Heisenberg1 wrote: »

That's a manual LC operated by a gatekeeper.

Quick flick shows 2 automatic crossings, the other 27 are manual. Does that mean 27 people employed on that line just to operate gates?

end of the road

could be done by a man in a van surely? the speeds the trains do would surely allow for it. but god only knows

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

could be done by a man in a van surely? the speeds the trains do would surely allow for it. but god only knows

I have a vision of someone jogging ahead of the train.

Fred Swanson

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L1011

n97 mini wrote: »

Quick flick shows 2 automatic crossings, the other 27 are manual. Does that mean 27 people employed on that line just to operate gates?

Likely a multiple thereof for shifts, cover etc

tabbey

end of the road wrote: »

Didn't inchicore works have some of it's land sold off? could have been kept to continue all maintenence there for stock operating in and out of the dublin area rather then having depots half way out the country. so it's a hard one to call, even though in the past i would have agreed with the idea of CIE getting rid of any bit of land it had outside depots stations and tracks.

The reason CIE and or the government chose to build railcar depots in Portlaoise and Drogheda, was to avail of EU regional development grants, which could be claimed in the Border, Midland and Western region, but not in Dublin & Eastern region.

Drogheda is just inside the border region and Portlaoise is midland.

For a short term gain to the state coffers, the powers that be sacrificed operational efficiency, at enormous cost to IR ever since. ghost trains running from Dublin and Bray to Drogheda and back, as well as long ICRs in service carrying a handful of passengers to Portlaoise.

Fred Swanson

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Isambard

so that's in all probability over 60 people just to open the gates. Scandalous, but not as scandalous as the lack of investment when times were better.

Where are all these empty workings? Don't trains start at the country end ion the morning and end there in the evening, in accordance with passenger flow?

loyatemu

Isambard wrote: »

so that's in all probability over 60 people just to open the gates. Scandalous, but not as scandalous as the lack of investment when times were better.

what's the alternative though - spend 10s of millions automating the LCs on a line that carries only a handful of passengers?

Isambard

chicken and egg
with past investment in this line and Lim Junc to Waterford , the situation now could be quite different. It's been engineered this way, IE has wanted to shut them for years

Fred Swanson

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tabbey

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Roscrea and Birdhill, which is the third, Killonan?

I suppose Killonan cabin could be closed if the branch closed, but the level crossing would remain on the route to Lmk Junction.

Fred Swanson

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loyatemu

Isambard wrote: »

chicken and egg
with past investment in this line and Lim Junc to Waterford , the situation now could be quite different. It's been engineered this way, IE has wanted to shut them for years

it's hard to see how a line that connects 2 small towns and a handful of tiny villages to a fairly small city could ever be viable (compared with other lines, obviously they're all subsidised to some degree). Even if you diverted the Dublin-Limerick trains onto it, you'd only be poaching passengers from the other line.

Waterford-Limerick at least has a city at each end, and a decent sized town en route (Clonmel is bigger than Nenagh and Roscrea combined). You could argue that with investment, a better timetable and promotion the Waterford-Limerick-Galway cross-country route could be an important link, it's difficult to make any such argument for the Ballybrophy branch.

Del.Monte

loyatemu wrote: »

it's hard to see how a line that connects 2 small towns and a handful of tiny villages to a fairly small city could ever be viable (compared with other lines, obviously they're all subsidised to some degree). Even if you diverted the Dublin-Limerick trains onto it, you'd only be poaching passengers from the other line.

Waterford-Limerick at least has a city at each end, and a decent sized town en route (Clonmel is bigger than Nenagh and Roscrea combined). You could argue that with investment, a better timetable and promotion the Waterford-Limerick-Galway cross-country route could be an important link, it's difficult to make any such argument for the Ballybrophy branch.

Or perhaps you would be freeing up space on the Dublin/Cork line - in much the same way that reopening Athlone/Mullingar would have beneficial effects on the Dublin/Cork line and Dublin/Westport/Ballina and Galway services.

BonkeyDonker

Del.Monte wrote: »

Or perhaps you would be freeing up space on the Dublin/Cork line - in much the same way that reopening Athlone/Mullingar would have beneficial effects on the Dublin/Cork line and Dublin/Westport/Ballina and Galway services.

How would you be doing that? The lines would merge at around Ballybrophy and continue on the same track from that point. Unlike Athlone/Mullingar which as I understand it would be removing the traffic completely.

The only capacity that would be free up would be past Portlaoise/Ballybrophy - which i cannot see being needed.

Now, personally I like the idea but more for the town like Roscrea etc who would have a direct, regular rail-link to Dublin and indeed Limerick. Opening this line direct would have been much more beneficial than the WRC in my opinion.

Fred Swanson

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Del.Monte

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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There was never a direct curve at Ballybrophy but that is what is needed. The track layout was different and facilitated working to and from the branch but then it was 'improved' in the early 1980's.

Fred Swanson

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tabbey

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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There was never a direct curve at Ballybrophy.

Trains had to reverse at Ballybrophy,
until 1967, they went into the mainline loop platform where the train was divided, the front portion continuing to Clonmel via the Thurles - Clonmel route.
The rear portion had a loco coupled at the Dublin end and proceeded to Limerick via Nenagh.
Following closure of the Clonmel branch, trains could use the bay platform.

I think what this poster is confusing with is the excessive track rationalisation which made it impossible to run around at the bay platform.

That is not to say that there should not be a direct curve, but in the current situation, it wont happen unfortunately.

Del.Monte

According to the "Save the Whale" Waterford/Rosslare Railway Facebook page there is a Limerick/Ballybrophy Facebook page but of course they don't give a link and I damned if I can find it. Anybody, please.....:)

Grandeeod

Del.Monte wrote: »

According to the "Save the Whale" Waterford/Rosslare Railway Facebook page there is a Limerick/Ballybrophy Facebook page but of course they don't give a link and I damned if I can find it. Anybody, please.....:)

Seriously? You want to add another ****ty FB page that will be consumed by trainspotters salivating on pics of packed specials between Ballbrophy and Limerick before I was even born???? That's not reality. The reality is that this line will be closed and purely on the basis that despite Kelly's Heroes, IE had it on their radar since the 70s, after it narrowly escaped closure in the 60s. Since then and the massive amounts of money offered to IE in the noughties, nobody gave a fook. Just like the Rosslare - Waterford route and the doomed Waterford - Limerick Junct. route.

This new closure possibility is based within a well documented history. When the money was free flowing CIE still didn't give a **** above the basic safety requirements. Once these closures are completed, they will move on to others that have been flagged in more recent history. But you already know that because you actually have a handle on how it works.

Fred Swanson

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Grandeeod

Fred Swanson wrote: »

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Of course they won't. It has been state policy since the 1970s. All that saved it since was various small political interventions (the biggest being Seamus Brennan in 2002). Alan Kelly put a bandage on it a few years ago. But nobody has ever tried to perform an operation on it.

We are witnessing a typically historical event in a different era. CIE want to close a rail line because they are losing money. Subvention is blamed. The line will close. No amount of subvention will be good enough ever. The same old guff has been going on for 60 odd years. The new closures in the near future will involve Kerry, Mayo, Wexford/Rosslare and Sligo. The rail network will keep shrinking until train drivers are earning 250K a year along with management on 350K a year and upwards. God only knows what will happen when they run out of track!

Idbatterim

I think this is being looked at with blinkers by many. Ask someone from another country to look at these lines and assess viability.theres only one population centre in the entire country. Some of the places suggested for rail services, when I go to look at them on google maps, They are villages!!! I don't think there is any appreciation for how expensive it is to run these services. We have a very dispersed population. Fortune spent on roads in rural Ireland. Free travel passes. The entire thing is beyond a joke and something has to give. I see the losses on the ballybrophy line. Then see a five million euro investment would cut cork-Dublin journey times by fifteen minutes and pay for itself in two years?! And there is even a discussion going on about these lines. The cost of rural Ireland is out of control in my opinion. Want good services? Move to Dublin and pay through the nose for a mortgage or on rent like the rest of us up here. Where we allegedly have "everything" ...

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think this is being looked at with blinkers by many. Ask someone from another country to look at these lines and assess viability.theres only one population centre in the entire country. Some of the places suggested for rail services, when I go to look at them on google maps, They are villages!!! I don't think there is any appreciation for how expensive it is to run these services. We have a very dispersed population. Fortune spent on roads in rural Ireland. Free travel passes. The entire thing is beyond a joke and something has to give. I see the losses on the ballybrophy line. Then see a five million euro investment would cut cork-Dublin journey times by fifteen minutes and pay for itself in two years?! And there is even a discussion going on about these lines. The cost of rural Ireland is out of control in my opinion. Want good services? Move to Dublin and pay through the nose for a mortgage or on rent like the rest of us up here. Where we allegedly have "everything" ...

Im getting old so I have to go to bed now.:D

Blinkers?? We are talking about operational lines. Lines that got neglected while the state went spending 110 million on reopening and promoting a different line to the tune of free carparking, cheap fares and state of the art stations. Lines that had absolutely nothing done to promote them from efficient transport options to planning housing along them. I'm all for what Dublin needs, but I'm absolutely fooking horrified at how we have treated operational railways while investing millions in a new build and now wanting to close the existing routes without any effort whatsoever.

Irish railways are like a big old house with broken windows, but we seem to want to build a conservatory, before relpacing the windows.

Banjoxed

CrowdedHouse wrote: »

Would make a fine greenway

Heigh ho, heigh ho, its onto the ignore list you go

end of the road

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think this is being looked at with blinkers by many.

nope. no it really isn't. it's being looked at via both reality and people's experiences.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Ask someone from another country to look at these lines and assess viability.theres only one population centre in the entire country. Some of the places suggested for rail services, when I go to look at them on google maps, They are villages!!! I don't think there is any appreciation for how expensive it is to run these services. We have a very dispersed population. Fortune spent on roads in rural Ireland. Free travel passes. The entire thing is beyond a joke and something has to give.

something did give. 6 years ago, nearly 30 years ago, between 40/60 years ago in huge numbers, and still something has to give according to you. how much more must give? and once it has given, what happens then? do you get your wish list delivered?
the vast majority of the rail network is viable, so hardly beyond a joke.

Idbatterim wrote: »

I see the losses on the ballybrophy line. Then see a five million euro investment would cut cork-Dublin journey times by fifteen minutes and pay for itself in two years?! And there is even a discussion going on about these lines.

the money is there to solve the issues on the rail network. the government do not wish to spend it on it and IE aren't interested in fighting for it.