Rail review and consultation launched

monument

The report is here.

The NTA's railway review page is here.

Here's the press release from the NTA:

The National Transport Authority and Iarnród Éireann have launched a process of consultation around the Rail Review 2016 Report, which was published today.

The Rail Review examines the network as it currently operates, and analyses the potential of the network to meet national, economic, social and environmental objectives into the future.

The process of public consultation gets under way today and continues until close of business on Wednesday 18th January 2017.

National Transport Authority CEO Anne Graham said:

“Rail has a huge role to play as an economic driver in terms of bringing about balanced regional development. It also delivers social benefits by improving social inclusion, improving accessibility and mobility, and making travel safer. In addition, it provides real environmental benefits by reducing emissions and improving air quality.

“But these benefits do not come free of charge, and if safeguarding them into the future is to become a genuine priority, there must be a commitment to give our rail network the support it will need in the years ahead.

“The Rail Review looks at the investment required to operate, maintain and develop the network, identifies the funding gap that has arisen, and examines the options around closing that gap.

“Starting today, we are actively consulting with the public on the prioritisation of rail services. We are very anxious to get a wide a range of views, and we want to engage with as many people as possible in this process, including members of local communities, rail users, employers, and any other interested parties.”

Iarnród Éireann CEO David Franks said:

“As our economy recovers and demand for rail services grows, Iarnród Éireann wants to play a strong role in meeting the transport needs of the country.

“However, this can only happen in a sustainably funded environment. The Rail Review shows the costs and revenues associated with all sections of our network, and provides independent analysis and data which will allow all stakeholders to make an informed contribution to the Authority’s public consultations and decisions on our future, and how we address the funding gap which exists.

“A sustainably funded railway will ensure Iarnród Éireann can focus on meeting commuter demand, and on the transport, economic and environmental needs of our country in line with the Authority’s strategy and the Government’s policy framework. I encourage anyone who has an interest in these issues to contribute to the public consultation launched today.”

Written submissions and observations may be made:

By downloading the form in the Public Consultations section of our website and returning to: railconsultation@nationaltransport.ie
By email: to railconsultation@nationaltransport.ie
By post to: Rail Consultation, NTA, Dun Scéine, Iveagh Ct, Harcourt Lane, Dublin 2, D02 WT20

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Key graphics from page 80:

Grandeeod

Another review.

Wash, rince, repeat.

And this is a genuine contribution in case someone thinks I'm trolling.

marno21

The figure here for Limerick - Galway is slightly skewed. Surely Ennis-Limerick requires less subvention than the joke north of Ennis?

Either way, surely shoots stone dead any idea of a service to Tuam/Claremorris/Collooney? Dual the N17 north of Tuam and provide buses.

Carawaystick

Does the report explain how the Athenry-Galway section is split and not affected by Dublin Galway?

Del.Monte

I've heard several figures sloshing around in the coverage of this review and I would like to know what is the ball park figure to be saved by closing the WRC, Limerick/Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction/Waterford? As a percentage of CIE's ongoing annual losses I suspect it will make little or no difference as there's precious little being spent on the three lines in question.

Del.Monte

Well known anti-rail charlatan 'Dr' Sean Barrett now being interviewed by Coleman on Newstalk.

Surprise, surprise even Sean Barrett highlights the deliberate ru nn-down of Rosslare and asks why CIE moved the station out of the port. But Coleman is back with his rubbish about cheaper to put everyone in taxis'/limos. In years to come media people like Coleman will be judged as being part of the reason that railways were eliminated in much the same way as other influential hacks like as Pat Kenny did nothing while the drugs epidemic spiralled out of control from the 1970s onwards.

Del.Monte

Barry Kenny on Pat Kenny now with lightweight Jonathan Healy so will be a really trivial piece.

Del.Monte

'Limerick - Ballybrophy has been closed for a long time' - Healy - need I say more. :rolleyes:

eastwest

I'd like to know whether this report now mans that Shane Ross will tell his IA colleague Sean Canney that his 'red line' issue in the programme for government -- the funding of an expensive study on the WRC north of Athenry -- is off the table. Is Ross an IA member first, or a Transport Minister?
I think we should be told.

n97 mini

Listened to the Newstalk clip with Sean Barrett. Some interesting points.

Report makes no mention of productivity. Average salary in IE is €61k.

Interesting that with the re-opening of the PPT that without a stop in Heuston it won't be possible to use for it for transfers. e.g. someone going Belfast to Galway will still end up using the Luas. (Though part of that problem is the connections between the commuter and intercity trains is brutal along along the Kildare line, making connections in places like Hazelhatch almost an impossibility)

Boulevardier

I didn't hear Sean Barrett on the radio, but on past performance he is viciously anti-railways and would close most of them in a second if he could.

As for the NTA, their neoliberal policies have already undermined the competitiveness of CIE, and are likely to do more damage in the forseeable future.

monument

Given the money the State pays for railways, I'd also like to see the wider benefits costed or estimated in some way.

And not just for passengers, 17 containers just pass by the window of the train I'm on -- that's 17 trucks off the road network for most of their journey, there's a safety, maintenance and environmental saving to the State and the economy there.

eastwest

Del.Monte wrote: »

I've heard several figures sloshing around in the coverage of this review and I would like to know what is the ball park figure to be saved by closing the WRC, Limerick/Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction/Waterford? As a percentage of CIE's ongoing annual losses I suspect it will make little or no difference as there's precious little being spent on the three lines in question.

There is ongoing maintenance plus passenger subsidy; it's quite a substantial amount judging by the report.
I waded through it last night but I'm not going to do it again! The figures are all there though.

Infini

n97 mini wrote: »

Report makes no mention of productivity. Average salary in IE is €61k.

I wouldnt trust those averages tbh they're usually distorted by adding in management positions and overtime into the arithmetic to bump up the average.

monument

Just spotted another 12 containers heading west... so, nearly 30 trucks off the road today alone.

Plus another, I think, 11 timber wagons -- so, at least 40 trucks off the road.

Del.Monte

You couldn't make this stuff up. People (Govt) seemed to think that build motorways and that would be that - no need for maintenance. :rolleyes:

The State’s new motorway network, worth an estimated €30 billion, is on a deteriorating spiral with not enough money being spent to keep it on “steady state” maintenance, according to Transport Infrastructure Ireland

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/not-enough-being-spent-on-state-s-30bn-motorway-network-1.2870122

€800 million to build a motorway linking two medium sized towns.

n97 mini

Del.Monte wrote: »

You couldn't make this stuff up. People (Govt) seemed to think that build motorways and that would be that - no need for maintenance. :rolleyes:

The State’s new motorway network, worth an estimated €30 billion, is on a deteriorating spiral with not enough money being spent to keep it on “steady state” maintenance, according to Transport Infrastructure Ireland

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/not-enough-being-spent-on-state-s-30bn-motorway-network-1.2870122

€800 million to build a motorway linking two medium sized towns.

Part of the roads problem is we have too many. No roads were closed when motorways opened. Public money being spent maintaining what are essentially private driveways needs to stop.

marno21

Del.Monte wrote: »

You couldn't make this stuff up. People (Govt) seemed to think that build motorways and that would be that - no need for maintenance. :rolleyes:

The State’s new motorway network, worth an estimated €30 billion, is on a deteriorating spiral with not enough money being spent to keep it on “steady state” maintenance, according to Transport Infrastructure Ireland

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/not-enough-being-spent-on-state-s-30bn-motorway-network-1.2870122

€800 million to build a motorway linking two medium sized towns.

800 million to finish our motorway network and connect our 2nd and 3rd cities. You can call them towns all you like but they are still the 2nd and 3rd biggest population centres in the country, have 2 airports, 2 TEN-T core ports, 2 universities etc between them.

It seems to me that Michael Nolan's comments are being misinterpreted. He's said before that TII don't have the funds to maintain most of the existing national network. Roads such as the N17 and N24 which were never built for either the volume of traffic using them or HGVs etc and are constantly crumbling. By right these should be replaced with 21st century roads.

afatbollix

So not even the dart pulls a profit. Tbh I think something is wrong here with the whole system.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

Listened to the Newstalk clip with Sean Barrett. Some interesting points.

Report makes no mention of productivity. Average salary in IE is €61k.

Interesting that with the re-opening of the PPT that without a stop in Heuston it won't be possible to use for it for transfers. e.g. someone going Belfast to Galway will still end up using the Luas. (Though part of that problem is the connections between the commuter and intercity trains is brutal along along the Kildare line, making connections in places like Hazelhatch almost an impossibility)

Average salary? The majority are close to half that.

marno21

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-extras-30003379/10650322/

Prime Time piece on this. Some nonsense from Kelly. No one is coming to invest in North Tipp because of the railway line.

n97 mini

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Average salary? The majority are close to half that.

If that's the case the minority are on more than double for it to average.

What is the salary scale for a driver, say? Out of curiosity.

elastico

marno21 wrote: »

The figure here for Limerick - Galway is slightly skewed. Surely Ennis-Limerick requires less subvention than the joke north of Ennis?

Closing Ennis - Athenry will save very little, if anything.

The same amount of rolling stock and drivers will more or less be needed and closing the middle section will also result in fewer passengers on the other sections.

Cookie_Monster

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Average salary? The majority are close to half that.

If we go with your assumption and say 50% are on around half that then the other 50% average about 92k a year

If we say 75% majority then that leaves the others on 154k avg a year!

I seriously doubt those numbers and would suggest the lower end is far higher than 30k to make those numbers work.

got any supporting evidence for your claim?

n97 mini

IE grades and payscales are in this from 2014. What an astonishing number of grades for an organisation with less than 4k employees.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/1605_foi_publication_scheme_final.pdf

Itssoeasy

Del.Monte wrote: »

'Limerick - Ballybrophy has been closed for a long time' - Healy - need I say more. :rolleyes:

I'd say that came as a shock to the people using that line.

schemingbohemia

Itssoeasy wrote: »

I'd say that came as a shock to the people using that line.

All ten of them......

Del.Monte

schemingbohemia wrote: »

All ten of them......

And why do you think numbers are so low instead of just parroting the official CIE/Government mantra.

loyatemu

n97 mini wrote: »

Part of the roads problem is we have too many. No roads were closed when motorways opened. Public money being spent maintaining what are essentially private driveways needs to stop.

there was a discussion about this on the Infrastructure->Roads board a while back. We have a lot of roads km per head of population, and there are many that service only one or two houses that (apparently) in other countries would not be publicly maintained.

The flip side of that is that local councils are not maintaining even the busier roads, so I doubt they're spending very much on these boreens. I was driving around south wexford earlier this year and many of the R roads clearly haven't been resurfaced for 10 years or more and are in rag order.

n97 mini

loyatemu wrote: »

there was a discussion about this on the Infrastructure->Roads board a while back. We have a lot of roads km per head of population, and there are many that service only one or two houses that (apparently) in other countries would not be publicly maintained.

The flip side of that is that local councils are not maintaining even the busier roads, so I doubt they're spending very much on these boreens. I was driving around south wexford earlier this year and many of the R roads clearly haven't been resurfaced for 10 years or more and are in rag order.

Wexford and Galway have the highest proportion of one-offs in Ireland. I know someone living in Wexford with 150m of road frontage who belly aches about the council not resurfacing "our road". I suggested he do it himself.

schemingbohemia

Del.Monte wrote: »

And why do you think numbers are so low instead of just parroting the official CIE/Government mantra.

Oh dear.

The numbers are so low because rail works best when transporting significant numbers from one place to another. The population on the Ballybrophy line does not lend itself to that.
Trains need to have timetables, a time that suits one person gets another into work too early or too late, the population isn't there to suit a service every 15 minutes and the congestion between the population centres isn't enough to entice people away from their cars.
So train can't, without massive increase in funding, provide a turn up and go service (10 minute frequency) or beat journey time, without that it just cannot work.
Can you suggest how this service could be made work to attract many more passengers without increasing the subsidy?

eastwest

n97 mini wrote: »

Wexford and Galway have the highest proportion of one-offs in Ireland. I know someone living in Wexford with 150m of road frontage who belly aches about the council not resurfacing "our road". I suggested he do it himself.

If you do it yourself the lawyers will pop out of the bushes with a long string of litigants with claims at the ready. In an ideal world we'd all fix stuff like that, but you wouldn't be thanked if you had to stand in front of a judge while some lad explained how tripping over a stone had ruined his life and that only money would fix it.

n97 mini

eastwest wrote: »

If you do it yourself the lawyers will pop out of the bushes with a long string of litigants with claims at the ready. In an ideal world we'd all fix stuff like that, but you wouldn't be thanked if you had to stand in front of a judge while some lad explained how tripping over a stone had ruined his life and that only money would fix it.

Tounge was firmly in cheek.

marno21

It just shows how ****ed the planning is when the media discussion about fixing Dublin's transport issues is double decking the M50 and widening the M1, N3, M4, M7 and N11 and the solution to transport problems in the west is to reopen Athenry-Collooney.

Dual the N17 and build DART Underground = benefits

Widen the approach roads to Dublin and open the WRC = colossal waste of money for the "benefits" obtained.

eastwest

marno21 wrote: »

It just shows how ****ed the planning is when the media discussion about fixing Dublin's transport issues is double decking the M50 and widening the M1, N3, M4, M7 and N11 and the solution to transport problems in the west is to reopen Athenry-Collooney.

Dual the N17 and build DART Underground = benefits

Widen the approach roads to Dublin and open the WRC = colossal waste of money for the "benefits" obtained.

Who said anything about benefits?
It's all about getting re-elected. 'Benefits' are the things we pay to people who can't get a job locally because the roads are 5hite in the north west.

Del.Monte

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Oh dear.

The numbers are so low because rail works best when transporting significant numbers from one place to another. The population on the Ballybrophy line does not lend itself to that.
Trains need to have timetables, a time that suits one person gets another into work too early or too late, the population isn't there to suit a service every 15 minutes and the congestion between the population centres isn't enough to entice people away from their cars.
So train can't, without massive increase in funding, provide a turn up and go service (10 minute frequency) or beat journey time, without that it just cannot work.
Can you suggest how this service could be made work to attract many more passengers without increasing the subsidy?

Now you're trotting out the perceived railways mantra according to Sean Barret/Colm McCarth and the lazy media.

1960

Weekdays - 3 through trains to Kingsbridge/Heuston each way taking 3hrs 15mins – (1hr 35mins for the branch).

1977

Weekdays – 2 Trains each way taking 1hr 25mins
Sundays – 2 Trains each way.
First departure to Limerick from Ballybrophy was at 11.45am arriving into Limerick 1.10pm!

2004

Weekdays - 2 Trains each way taking 1hr 45mins
First train from Ballybrophy at 9.45am arriving Limerick 11.31am. Only available return journey 3.00pm ex.Limerick.
Sundays – 1 train each way

2016

Weekdays – 2 Trains each way taking 2 hours.
Plus 1 additional morning service from Nenagh to Limerick which arrives in Limerick at 8.45am and has no return working ie. commuters must return on the 16.55 service ex.Limerick.
Sundays – 1 train each way.

So looking back over the decades it’s not obvious who the service was aimed at, certainly not workers or people with business in Limerick. Possibly at those wishing to emigrate via Dun Laoghaire or the North Wall and for returning emigrants at holiday times? The present service is next to useless and bears a striking similarity to the useless service provided on the South Wexford line.

Possible improvements that could be made if the will was there.

1. North facing direct curve at Ballybrophy allowing through running between Dublin/Limerick.

2. Complete the upgrading of track and increase line speed to reduce journey times.

3. Proper marketing with staff and others incentivised to bring in business.

4. Fastrack reintroduced. Obviously dependent on it being reintroduced network wide.

5. All-Ireland printed timetable so that people outside the immediate area can be informed of the line’s existence.

Oh, and most obviously of all, the designation of Nenagh and Roscrea as special growth hubs with grant aid to attract in business. This might even help reduce the ever increasing growth of Dublin to the detriment of its citizens and the country as a whole. Fat chance.

monument

marno21 wrote: »

Dual the N17

North of Tuam most people would settle for the standard of the under construction section between Ballindine and Miltown. Maybe some 2 + 1 sections along the route.

marno21 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/prime-time-extras-30003379/10650322/

Prime Time piece on this. Some nonsense from Kelly. No one is coming to invest in North Tipp because of the railway line.

The same might have been said about Ballina a few years ago but Coca-Cola and the other companies using the line seem to value the railway now. Larger companies also use passenger services and there's more than Coca-Cola around the town, and, on a smaller scale, I know of international supplies who visited smaller companies in Ballina too, they would not have taken the bus.

I not defending the route as it is, but the state it is in is at least partly because of under-investment and one train in a single direction on a Sunday is madness.

marno21

monument wrote: »

North of Tuam most people would settle for the standard of the under construction section between Ballindine and Miltown. Maybe some 2 + 1 sections along the route.

Dualling it would be good for the future. If Milltown, Ballindine, Charlestown & Tobercurry are to be bypassed with expensive offline schemes it may as well be a 2+2 scheme.

Nermal

Del.Monte wrote: »

Possible improvements that could be made if the will was there.

When you say 'will', what you really mean is 'money', and the fact is that money spent in Dublin returns more benefit than money spent elsewhere, so that's where the limited amount we have should be spent.

Del.Monte

Nermal wrote: »

When you say 'will', what you really mean is 'money', and the fact is that money spent in Dublin returns more benefit than money spent elsewhere, so that's where the limited amount we have should be spent.

No, I mean the 'will' to plan long term rather than the next five years. The way Dublin is going/growing the outer ring road will end up being via Athlone.

Bray Head

Just reading this now. The Roland Berger report on passenger costs by route is really well done and is a model of transparency for when large amounts of public expenditure is involved.

Congratulations on whoever squeezed this information out. I suspect it was a hard battle.

It did not surprise me that the DART requires by far the cheapest per passenger subsidy, but what did surprise me was by how much.

Also great to have the details on the actual cost per passenger on some of the peripheral routes as well. It might wake local interest groups up a little to the relative costs of bus-based rural transport schemes by comparison.

eastwest

'By comparison?'
Unfortunately the only comparison that ever gets an airing in this debate is 'They have DART and LUAS in Dublin, and they run on rails, so we're entitled to the same.'
Figures don't come into it, I'm afraid.

Bray Head

eastwest wrote: »

'By comparison?'
Unfortunately the only comparison that ever gets an airing in this debate is 'They have DART and LUAS in Dublin, and they run on rails, so we're entitled to the same.'
Figures don't come into it, I'm afraid.

Well of course they could not come into it because there was no way of telling what routes actually cost what.

end of the road

Bray Head wrote: »

It might wake local interest groups up a little to the relative costs of bus-based rural transport schemes by comparison.

why would it. they would be wasting their time. where a bus replaces a rail service it is either less used then the rail service or not used at all.

marno21

end of the road wrote: »

why would it. they would be wasting their time. where a bus replaces a rail service it is either less used then the rail service or not used at all.

The rail service is beyond unsustainable. Either a much cheaper bus service is implemented or nothing. The Limerick-Ballybrophy service as is cannot go on with the subventions required. It doesn't matter how willing the locals are to use a bus service, the train service is not viable

Del.Monte

marno21 wrote: »

The rail service is beyond unsustainable. Either a much cheaper bus service is implemented or nothing. The Limerick-Ballybrophy service as is cannot go on with the subventions required. It doesn't matter how willing the locals are to use a bus service, the train service is not viable

Perhaps your attitude will change when the Mallow/Tralee section is targeted with closure - it was on the list a few years back and will be again.

end of the road

marno21 wrote: »

The rail service is beyond unsustainable. Either a much cheaper bus service is implemented or nothing. The Limerick-Ballybrophy service as is cannot go on with the subventions required. It doesn't matter how willing the locals are to use a bus service, the train service is not viable

guess it's nothing then. as the more expensive to the user bus service hasn't a chance of being used. they're are all ready existing bus services for those who do wish to use bus, which will offer those users a better service then something jumping and jolting along the exact route of the line on the so called roads. just like south wexford.

Del.Monte wrote: »

Perhaps your attitude will change when the Mallow/Tralee section is targeted with closure - it was on the list a few years back and will be again.

i doubt it tbh. you are correct the line will be up for closure again though. and no doubt people will believe whatever over inflated figure will be put out to justify it. ireland never learns, ireland will never learn.

Carawaystick

end of the road wrote: »

why would it. they would be wasting their time. where a bus replaces a rail service it is either less used then the rail service or not used at all.

When the enterprise is closes and a bus replaces it, it it less used?

How many people travel from Galway to Limerick by train?
How many by coach?
How many travel to Dublin by train?
How many by coach?


Before Irish rail allowed the viaduct across Broadmeadow fall into the sea, there was 1 33x bus per day, now there's 5 each way, and there's usually no room to board in Lusk

How many people get busses from Galway to Tuam? I presume its less than the last train?

:rolleyes:

what_traffic

Carawaystick wrote: »

How many people get busses from Galway to Tuam? I presume its less than the last train?

Decent bus service to Tuam from Galway
Checkout
http://www.burkesbus.com/times.php?timetableNG=7

marno21

Del.Monte wrote: »

Perhaps your attitude will change when the Mallow/Tralee section is targeted with closure - it was on the list a few years back and will be again.

Nonsense. Mallow-Tralee will not be closed, and you can quote me on that.

There is still no rail service connecting Swords, or the airport, and there is no proper city centre NETWORK, an isolated station serving most of the country and a highly overcapacity 2 track section in the heart of the city. Meanwhile we are highly subsidising 2 criminally underused lines, where a proper bus service would more than suffice.