Why do parents accept education for their kids "as is"?

Zynks

I am legally required to place my daughter under the unsupervised supervision of strangers in a place for almost six hours per day. For generations this has been done with blind trust and to a large extent it still is. There are horror stories from the past about breaches of this trust, but somehow this doesn’t stop us from continuing to do it with almost complete faith in the system - or is it just that we feel powerless?

This system is funded by taxpaying citizens of this country, but there is a twist: this system is mainly controlled by a certain religious faith, which was the origin of almost all horror stories of abuses against children in the past, but somehow they are still trusted by us and the state as to know what’s best for our children and their education.

Today, when picking my 8 y.o. daughter up from school I heard the whole class saying something. I asked her what it was, she explained they were praying as they do everyday. I asked if they did it any more times as she confirmed that they pray at the start of the day, once before each break and once before leaving school, everyday, four times.

I was livid. Why is this still happening? Do people really think this is OK?

Sure, you may argue that I “put my child in a catholic school, what do I expect?”. True, I expected some unwanted indoctrination, which I am happy to ridicule when my kids arrive home, but seriously, how many religious adults pray four times before 9 am and 2.30 pm? So why is it OK to force five year olds to do it?

Are children not entitled to freedom of religion? How about freedom from religion? We really are just turning a blind eye to what’s happening. We have a government refusing to take responsibility by relying on a heavily tarnished organisation that is just doing the best they can to brainwash our kids into their faith.

Yeah, I can see it coming “we all went through that system and we survived”. Seriously, what happened to you was wrong. What’s happening to our kids is wrong, and by turning a blind eye, we are complicit with this big lie.

I want the state to take full responsibility for primary and secondary education removing all religions from the classroom.

Can someone help me understand why doesn’t the majority of people want this separation?

D0NNELLY

My kids even at 3 know it's just another nice story.. along with the other nice stories.. nothing to get worked up over.

otwb1

Zynks wrote:

I am legally required to place my daughter under the unsupervised supervision of strangers in a place for almost six hours per day.

As far as I know you're not actually legally obliged to have your child educated in a school. Have you looked at home schooling options?

If you want your child educated in a nondenominational school then you could get involved with Educate Together to see if there is demand in your area.

Zynks

otwb1 wrote: »

As far as I know you're not actually legally obliged to have your child educated in a school. Have you looked at home schooling options?

But I do want my child to go to a school.

otwb1 wrote: »

If you want your child educated in a nondenominational school then you could get involved with Educate Together to see if there is demand in your area.

There is one not too far, we have been in waiting list for a while.

I had predicted the implied "you have alternatives, take it or leave it", even if it is not your intention. But that is more of a distraction from the real issue: are the majority of parents really OK with this going on in 90% of tax funded schools or are they just being lazy and conformists?

Zynks

D0NNELLY wrote: »

.. nothing to get worked up over.

That is where the problem lies. At what stage does it become something to be worked over? Is it that it really doesn't matter, or that we are taking the easy way out and prefer not to "rock the boat"?

D0NNELLY

Zynks wrote: »

But But that is more of a distraction from the real issue: are the majority of parents really OK with this going on in 90% of tax funded schools or are they just being lazy and conformists?

Talk to your kids.. don't just leave it to the schools.

D0NNELLY

Zynks wrote: »

That is where the problem lies. At what stage does it become something to be worked over? Is it that it really doesn't matter, or that we are taking the easy way out and prefer not to "rock the boat"?

Nothing easy about parents educating the kids on all aspects of the world they live in. My kids go to a catholic school. They know the religious part is nonsense. But we have a crib at Christmas. They know Buddhism is nonsense, but we have a little buddah in the sun room. They know Islam is nonsense, but they respect that others take it seriously..

Zynks

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Talk to your kids.. don't just leave it to the schools.

Of course, I do. But I want to be able to tell my kids that I tried to stop the attempts of indoctrination and get them to do more sport or philosophy.

It just isn't OK to expose kids to forced religion (I wasn't allowed to reply "the child hasn't decided yet" to the registration's question "child's religion") and have it funded with tax money, is it?

Zynks

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Nothing easy about parents educating the kids on all aspects of the world they live in. My kids go to a catholic school. They know the religious part is nonsense. But we have a crib at Christmas. They know Buddhism is nonsense, but we have a little buddah in the sun room. They know Islam is nonsense, but they respect that others take it seriously..

...and for that reason we leave things as they are in schools?

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

I am legally required to place my daughter under the unsupervised supervision of strangers in a place for almost six hours per day. For generations this has been done with blind trust and to a large extent it still is. There are horror stories from the past about breaches of this trust, but somehow this doesn’t stop us from continuing to do it with almost complete faith in the system - or is it just that we feel powerless?

This system is funded by taxpaying citizens of this country, but there is a twist: this system is mainly controlled by a certain religious faith, which was the origin of almost all horror stories of abuses against children in the past, but somehow they are still trusted by us and the state as to know what’s best for our children and their education.

Today, when picking my 8 y.o. daughter up from school I heard the whole class saying something. I asked her what it was, she explained they were praying as they do everyday. I asked if they did it any more times as she confirmed that they pray at the start of the day, once before each break and once before leaving school, everyday, four times.

I was livid. Why is this still happening? Do people really think this is OK?

Sure, you may argue that I “put my child in a catholic school, what do I expect?”. True, I expected some unwanted indoctrination, which I am happy to ridicule when my kids arrive home, but seriously, how many religious adults pray four times before 9 am and 2.30 pm? So why is it OK to force five year olds to do it?

Are children not entitled to freedom of religion? How about freedom from religion? We really are just turning a blind eye to what’s happening. We have a government refusing to take responsibility by relying on a heavily tarnished organisation that is just doing the best they can to brainwash our kids into their faith.

Yeah, I can see it coming “we all went through that system and we survived”. Seriously, what happened to you was wrong. What’s happening to our kids is wrong, and by turning a blind eye, we are complicit with this big lie.

I want the state to take full responsibility for primary and secondary education removing all religions from the classroom.

Can someone help me understand why doesn’t the majority of people want this separation?

Probably because the majority of the people are happy with the system the way it is.
Why would depend on the person.
For me, I am okay with sending my kids to a "standard" school. Sure they get taught religion - so did I - but the reality is, its' generally a very small part of the curriculum and in general people are happy with the way their kids are taught.
If kids are easily brainwashed into faith, none of us here would have the opinions we currently have (as an aside)

otwb1

Zynks wrote:

I had predicted the implied "you have alternatives, take it or leave it", even if it is not your intention. But that is more of a distraction from the real issue: are the majority of parents really OK with this going on in 90% of tax funded schools or are they just being lazy and conformists?

I suspect that the majority of parents who have an issue with religion being taught in school try to register their children in the new community schools or in educate together schools.

The more people who register an interest which allows organisations to prove demand in an area the more schools will be established without religious connections.

On your own issue- Have you raised your problem with the school? I'd be surprised if they don't allow you to opt out of religious classes.

Zynks

kippy wrote: »

Probably because the majority of the people are happy with the system the way it is.
Why would depend on the person.
For me, I am okay with sending my kids to a "standard" school. Sure they get taught religion - so did I - but the reality is, its' generally a very small part of the curriculum and in general people are happy with the way their kids are taught.

It is 30 minutes plus the four prayers (in my daughters case) everyday. They do far less PE than that. Not that small in my view, though the issue is not the time, but what is done with that time. I agree with religion as a sociological and history subject, not as a time for indoctrination.

Isn't accepting it as a "hidden" thing in a generally OK curriculum just a poor excuse? Lets put it another way: if there was no religion classes and the multiple compulsory prayers, would you ask them to be added to the daily routine?

PolaroidPizza

Any parents I know would much rather their kids learnt maths instead of preparation for communion/confession/ confirmation.

kippy wrote: »

Probably because the majority of the people are happy with the system the way it is.
Why would depend on the person.
For me, I am okay with sending my kids to a "standard" school. Sure they get taught religion - so did I - but the reality is, its' generally a very small part of the curriculum and in general people are happy with the way their kids are taught.
If kids are easily brainwashed into faith, none of us here would have the opinions we currently have (as an aside)

vicwatson

kippy wrote: »

Probably because the majority of the people are happy with the system the way it is.

I disagree with this statement. Not sure they've ever been asked for starters.

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

I disagree with this statement. Not sure they've ever been asked for starters.

Surely if there were enough people with issues, there would be a demand for wholescale change.....

kippy

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

Any parents I know would much rather their kids learnt maths instead of preparation for communion/confession/ confirmation.

I don't disagree, but again, I dont see any evidence that they feel strongly enough about it, to start to effect change.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

It is 30 minutes plus the four prayers (in my daughters case) everyday. They do far less PE than that. Not that small in my view, though the issue is not the time, but what is done with that time. I agree with religion as a sociological and history subject, not as a time for indoctrination.

Isn't accepting it as a "hidden" thing in a generally OK curriculum just a poor excuse? Lets put it another way: if there was no religion classes and the multiple compulsory prayers, would you ask them to be added to the daily routine?

I wouldn't. But that's not the reality we live in. I'd have the same thoughts on Irish and History but I just get on with it. If I felt strongly enough about any of it, I might try do something about it, but there are only so many hours in the day.

The_Valeyard

Yawn OP.


Any parent I chat to is all about changing the system, but just not their school.

Happy for my child to have that education along with a broad curriculum.

Zynks

otwb1 wrote: »

I suspect that the majority of parents who have an issue with religion being taught in school try to register their children in the new community schools or in educate together schools.

The more people who register an interest which allows organisations to prove demand in an area the more schools will be established without religious connections.

On your own issue- Have you raised your problem with the school? I'd be surprised if they don't allow you to opt out of religious classes.

Opt out? It is a joke, kid stays in the classroom listening to the whole thing. Why not opt-in? Why not as an after school optional subject paid by parents?

I agree, we need to document interest for change somehow, if it does exist at all - I am not sure it does. That's why I am asking these questions.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

Opt out? It is a joke, kid stays in the classroom listening to the whole thing. Why not opt-in? Why not as an after school optional subject paid by parents?

I agree, we need to document interest for change somehow, if it does exist at all - I am not sure it does. That's why I am asking these questions.

Again, thats the deal with the type of school - unfortunately there are not enough Educate Together etc schools in areas to satisfy the alleged demand however if people really did feel strongly enough about it they COULD move their kids although I appreciate that is not always practical.
Start here I would suggest. (register interest etc)
https://www.educatetogether.ie/

Zynks

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Yawn OP.


Any parent I chat to is all about changing the system, but just not their school.

Happy for my child to have that education along with a broad curriculum.

So every parent you 'chat to' is a hypocrite? OK, fine, but unless you are suggesting every other parent also is, your point doesn't add much to the discussion.

I take note though of your preference for keeping things as they are, thanks.

vicwatson

kippy wrote: »

Surely if there were enough people with issues, there would be a demand for wholescale change.....

The government wont even change the damn census form in relation to the question on religion, so we are decades away from any sort of politically led change, they don't want to believe

Zynks

@Kippy, again, I have my kids in waiting lists at the local ET school.

The Muppet

Zynks wrote: »

But I do want my child to go to a school.



There is one not too far, we have been in waiting list for a while.

I had predicted the implied "you have alternatives, take it or leave it", even if it is not your intention. But that is more of a distraction from the real issue: are the majority of parents really OK with this going on in 90% of tax funded schools or are they just being lazy and conformists?

The majority of parents were educated in the same way and were not let down by the system and are happy enough for their children to do likewise.

endacl

Zynks wrote: »

That is where the problem lies. At what stage does it become something to be worked over? Is it that it really doesn't matter, or that we are taking the easy way out and prefer not to "rock the boat"?

We've all been through that system. Most of us are, by and large, grand.

vicwatson

kippy wrote: »

Again, thats the deal with the type of school - unfortunately there are not enough Educate Together non denominational etc schools in areas to satisfy the alleged demand however if people really did feel strongly enough about it they COULD move their kids although I appreciate that is not always practical.
Start here I would suggest. (register interest etc)
https://www.educatetogether.ie/

FYP:)

kippy

PolaroidPizza wrote: »

Any parents I know would much rather their kids learnt maths instead of preparation for communion/confession/ confirmation.

Kids learn maths also - more time spent at maths does not equal kids who are better at maths either - but that is an entirely different argument.

You can look at the ceremonies themselves as religious hockus pockus or you can look at them as an opportunity for your kids to gain some confidence, social skills, public speaking etc etc.
If its all hocus pocus to you - whats the difference?

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

The government wont even change the damn census form in relation to the question on religion, so we are decades away from any sort of politically led change, they don't want to believe

And again, that's down to not enough ordinary joe soaps voicing their opinions to their elected reps.

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

FYP:)

Thanks for the correction.

Zynks

vicwatson wrote: »

The government wont even change the damn census form in relation to the question on religion, so we are decades away from any sort of politically led change, they don't want to believe

If you look at the pressure and lobbying from religious groups over the government and press during discussions about marriage equality and reproductive rights, you can only imagine what goes on in the background about education reform. I think change will have to start from parents.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

@Kippy, again, I have my kids in waiting lists at the local ET school.

Then, theres' not much more within your power that you can do.