Why do parents accept education for their kids "as is"?

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

If you look at the pressure and lobbying from religious groups over the government and press during discussions about marriage equality and reproductive rights, you can only imagine what goes on in the background about education reform. I think change will have to start from parents.

That's what I've been saying - however not enough parents care strongly enough about it, for multiple reasons, to kick that off in any meaningful way.

The_Valeyard

Zynks wrote: »

If you look at the pressure and lobbying from religious groups over the government and press during discussions about marriage equality and reproductive rights, you can only imagine what goes on in the background about education reform. I think change will have to start from parents.

Same lobbying happen by atheist and humanist groups.

eviltwin

Most parents aren't bothered OP. They are happy for their child to have their day doing the FHC fashion show and piss up without having to do any of the donkey work themselves. All you can do this is join the ET community and lobby for a school in your area.

vicwatson

kippy wrote: »

And again, that's down to not enough ordinary joe soaps voicing their opinions to their elected reps.

There was a sizeable amount of lobbying done for last census on this matter yet gov turned on their heels.

The governments we have had are not in the mood to change/force change, the RC church still very much in the driving seat.

We still have the angelus FFS

We still also have situation whereas brand new schools are being built, paid for by the taxpayer yet the government are NOT insisting these new schools become non denominational, instead where new schools/extensions are being built and paid for by the taxpayer the existing church board of management get to effectively keep this property, though not having paid a cent towards it. It's a joke (alongside their charitable status).

That said though, Irish Governments since the inception of the state have happily let the RC church take control of education as they all washed their hands of it. Ultimately the Irish people are to blame for letting all this happen.

Zynks

The Muppet wrote: »

The majority of parents were educated in the same way and were not let down by the system and are happy enough for their children to do likewise.

endacl wrote: »

We've all been through that system. Most of us are, by and large, grand.

I thought I had pre-empted the 'been there and I survived' argument at the start. That is not responsible parenting in my opinion. I survived a parent smoking in the house, I know many people who survived beatings by parents or teachers. So what?!?

Anyway, if there is space for improvement (assuming one agrees), why use the past as justification for the present and future way of educating our children?

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

There was a sizeable amount of lobbying done for last census on this matter yet gov turned on their heels.

The governments we have had are not in the mood to change/force change, the RC church still very much in the driving seat.

We still have the angelus FFS

We still also have situation whereas brand new schools are being built, paid for by the taxpayer yet the government are NOT insisting these new schools become non denominational, instead where new schools/extensions are being built and paid for by the taxpayer the existing church board of management get to effectively keep this property, though not having paid a cent towards it. It's a joke (alongside their charitable status).

That said though, Irish Governments since the inception of the state have happily let the RC church take control of education as they all washed their hands of it. Ultimately the Irish people are to blame for letting all this happen.

Exactly what I have been saying.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

I thought I had pre-empted the 'been there and I survived' argument at the start. That is not responsible parenting in my opinion. I survived a parent smoking in the house, I know many people who survived beatings by parents or teachers. So what?!?

Anyway, if there is space for improvement (assuming one agrees), why use the past as justification for the present and future way of educating our children?

It's not exactly the same comparison you are making though - is it?

There's always space for improvement in every facet of life depending on your viewpoint.
Again, there don't seem to be enough people out there that view the religious side of education as a big enough issue to commit their time to resolving - which is unfortunate for you and those of a similar mindset - that may not always be the way though.

Zynks

eviltwin wrote: »

Most parents aren't bothered OP. They are happy for their child to have their day doing the FHC fashion show and piss up without having to do any of the donkey work themselves. All you can do this is join the ET community and lobby for a school in your area.

It scares me to think that you are right. Surely people care more about the education of their kids than water charges or the premier league, but somehow the evidence is not there.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

It scares me to think that you are right. Surely people care more about the education of their kids than water charges or the premier league, but somehow the evidence is not there.

Of course people care about the education of their kids.
They just have a different viewpoint to that of your own.

mdwexford

4 times would be obviously excessive but I don't believe you about that.

The_Valeyard

Zynks wrote: »

It scares me to think that you are right. Surely people care more about the education of their kids than water charges or the premier league, but somehow the evidence is not there.

Of course they do! Very wrong to think they do not, Just because they do not seem to want change to the primary system. Maybe your vision is too blinkered. Perhaps people are happy the education system.

eviltwin

Religion in school didn't do harm to most people but I don't think that's the point. It's a large chunk of time that could be better spent on learning something useful such as a language or on something for personal development such as music, sport etc. I had one in a Catholic school and between masses, fhc preparation, religious study etc a lot of time was lost that could have been put to better use. The real scandal is not what children are forced to learn but what they miss out on as a result.

Zynks

kippy wrote: »

...there don't seem to be enough people out there that view the religious side of education as a big enough issue to commit their time to resolving...

That is what I am trying to find out. Is it really that people don't care enough as you suggest, or that they are 'shushed', made feel bad, the issue trivialised by covert opponents or even that it feels like mission impossible?

The Muppet

Zynks wrote: »

I thought I had pre-empted the 'been there and I survived' argument at the start. That is not responsible parenting in my opinion. I survived a parent smoking in the house, I know many people who survived beatings by parents or teachers. So what?!?

Anyway, if there is space for improvement (assuming one agrees), why use the past as justification for the present and future way of educating our children?

You are entitled to your opinion once you don't try force it on people who dont share that opinion.

There is choice now so there is no need to force change , most people are happy enough with Catholic schooling for their children those that are not send them elsewhere.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

That is what I am trying to find out. Is it really that people don't care enough as you suggest, or that they are 'shushed', made feel bad, the issue trivialised by covert opponents or even that it feels like mission impossible?

There are plenty of reasons, already noted in this thread, why people aren't of the same viewpoint as yourself. If you chose to ignore them because they don't line up with your way of thinking, this thread is pointless and the questions posed in the initial post are purely rhetorical.

The_Valeyard

Zynks wrote: »

That is what I am trying to find out. Is it really that people don't care enough as you suggest, or that they are 'shushed', made feel bad, the issue trivialised by covert opponents or even that it feels like mission impossible?

Probably the opposite actually. A very vocal organised atheist group with media support tend to shout down those who disagree.

Actually you will find people who agree with you on the A&A forums, they have a thread dedicated to this.

kippy

eviltwin wrote: »

Religion in school didn't do harm to most people but I don't think that's the point. It's a large chunk of time that could be better spent on learning something useful such as a language or on something for personal development such as music, sport etc. I had one in a Catholic school and between masses, fhc preparation, religious study etc a lot of time was lost that could have been put to better use. The real scandal is not what children are forced to learn but what they miss out on as a result.

I don't disagree with what you are saying but there are other subjects, that I personally, see no or little value in, but others would see plenty value in - differing viewpoints.

Zynks

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Of course they do! Very wrong to think they do not, Sony because they do not seem to want change to the primary system. Maybe your vision is too blinkered. Perhaps people are happy the education system.

I am questioning the imposition of religion in education, not the entire education system.

Not sure if this applies to all public schools, but my kids only get maths, reading and writing homework. Why is religion hidden from parents at home? Is it so we don't question it? Why is it that none of the parents I met this afternoon after talking to my daughter could tell me whether they prayed everyday in the classroom or how many times? It suits them to keep it out of sight of the 'responsible' adults, I think it suits lazy parents to pretend it is not an issue and just let it be.

eviltwin

kippy wrote: »

I don't disagree with what you are saying but there are other subjects, that I personally, see no or little value in, but others would see plenty value in - differing viewpoints.

I don't necessarily think religion is a useless subject, in fact I think it's important to learn about other faith and cultures but faith formation and all that goes with it is a waste of time and resources and that kind of thing should be best left to parents and places of worship.

vicwatson

The Muppet wrote: »

There is choice now so there is no need to force change , most people are happy enough with Catholic schooling for their children those that are not send them elsewhere.

Drivvle, because, by far, for the majority there is NOT a choice

Zynks

mdwexford wrote: »

4 times would be obviously excessive but I don't believe you about that.

This was confirmed by my 11 y.o. son, but it 'depends on the teacher' according to him.

I was in doubt also, that's why I asked when they pray, the answer was "at the start of the day, before the big lunch break, before the small lunch break and before we leave the class at 2.30". My daughter said it has always been like that since she was in jr infants.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

I am questioning the imposition of religion in education, not the entire education system.

Not sure if this applies to all public schools, but my kids only get maths, reading and writing homework. Why is religion hidden from parents at home? Is it so we don't question it? Why is it that none of the parents I met this afternoon after talking to my daughter could tell me whether they prayed everyday in the classroom or how many times? It suits them to keep it out of sight of the 'responsible' adults, I think it suits lazy parents to pretend it is not an issue and just let it be.

Would you prefer that they got religion homework also - they may at some point......
You are suggesting that schools keep parents in the dark?

Your accusations, calling parents lazy, just because they don't have your viewpoint etc, is not going to help you gain traction with them in trying to get support for your goals.

The Muppet

Zynks wrote: »

I am questioning the imposition of religion in education, not the entire education system.

Not sure if this applies to all public schools, but my kids only get maths, reading and writing homework. Why is religion hidden from parents at home? Is it so we don't question it? Why is it that none of the parents I met this afternoon after talking to my daughter could tell me whether they prayed everyday in the classroom or how many times? It suits them to keep it out of sight of the 'responsible' adults, I think it suits lazy parents to pretend it is not an issue and just let it be.

What's the issue with praying ?

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

Drivvle, because, by far, for the majority there is NOT a choice

There is ALWAYS a choice, it is whether the parents feel strongly enough about it to make that choice.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

This was confirmed by my 11 y.o. son, but it 'depends on the teacher' according to him.

I was in doubt also, that's why I asked when they pray, the answer was "at the start of the day, before the big lunch break, before the small lunch break and before we leave the class at 2.30". My daughter said it has always been like that since she was in jr infants.

That would be pretty standard in some schools.
How long does this "praying" take, 10 - 20 minutes?

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

Well I felt in the somewhat awkward position where the nearest school to us is really good so that's why it was chosen, and it happens to be a Catholic School.

There is an extreme disconnect here between parents sending their children to a Catholic School and having next to no real belief that Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins, or go to mass to say a prayer, or think the bible is anything other than a load of old stories no different to what we've heard in folklore.

I suspect most people do have some belief in something, but a minority of Irish people who went to a Catholic School and who currently send their children to a Catholic School are on a practical/real level no more Catholic than they are Protestant/Buddhist/Viking.

Many people might consider themselves 'cultural' Catholics but that doesn't really mean a whole lot either in this context.

(I'm aware I've made a fair few sweeping generalisations and assumptions in the above but I don't think I'm too far off in any of it)

ectoraige

OP, you know you can opt your child out of religious instruction? You say your child is eight, is their class doing communion?

vicwatson

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Probably the opposite actually. A very vocal organised atheist group with media support tend to shout down those who disagree.

Actually you will find people who agree with you on the A&A forums, they have a thread dedicated to this.

And this is a thread dedicated to it in Parenting, whats the problem with that?

kippy

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't necessarily think religion is a useless subject, in fact I think it's important to learn about other faith and cultures but faith formation and all that goes with it is a waste of time and resources and that kind of thing should be best left to parents and places of worship.

Again, I don't disagree, but I don't feel strongly enough about it tbh.

Zynks

kippy wrote: »

I don't disagree with what you are saying but there are other subjects, that I personally, see no or little value in, but others would see plenty value in - differing viewpoints.

Sure, but why is the dominant viewpoint in education that of an organisation that doesn't include a single (officially) parent?