Why do parents accept education for their kids "as is"?

eviltwin

kippy wrote: »

Business?
Market?
Come on.
If you want to make those comparisons you'd better be prepared to continue the logic.

There is choice.

What choice is there ?

kippy

eviltwin wrote: »

What choice is there ?

Do you really expect an answer to that?

kippy

vicwatson wrote: »

They are above





Why not take the opportunity to respond one by one?

Read back over the thread. Responses have been given. OP not happy to accept them.

The_Valeyard

vicwatson wrote: »

Why not take the opportunity to respond one by one?

Drivel of a post. I have done.

eviltwin

kippy wrote: »

Do you really expect an answer to that?

Yeah I do actually. What choice is there for a parent who doesn't have a non Catholic school in their area ? What choice is there if the alternative is fully booked and the only one with a place is a few counties over ?

vicwatson

This is turning into a post in the after hours forum fairly rapidly unfortunately by one or two posters, must be a quiet night over there, I'm out

Zynks

meeeeh wrote: »

This thread could make some decent points if OP wouldn't be preoccupied telling everyone how much better parent they are than anyone else. Although how it escaped to such an invested how much praying they do for three years and a bit is beyond me.

I am not a great parent by any means nor was I trying to compare my skills with anyone else's, so I hope this corrects any wrong impressions I may have caused.

Having said that, I do consider it to be lazy parenting to take the easy option out accepting things just as they are.

The multiple daily praying did get me by surprise alright. See, I am not that great a parent...

Do you know how many times does your (assumed) child is made pray daily?

kippy

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah I do actually. What choice is there for a parent who doesn't have a non Catholic school in their area ? What choice is there if the alternative is fully booked and the only one with a place is a few counties over ?

If you believe it is a big enough issue for you - you move area. The same as with any decision around this type of thing.
People move areas for schools/education all the time.
Again, there are choices - they may not always suit you - but that is life.

kippy

Zynks wrote: »

I am not a great parent by any means nor was I trying to compare my skills with anyone else's, so I hope this corrects any wrong impressions I may have caused.

Having said that, I do consider it to be lazy parenting to take the easy option out accepting things just as they are.

The multiple daily praying did get me by surprise alright. See, I am not that great a parent...

Do you know how many times does your (assumed) child is made pray daily?

But again, people accept things for different reasons, some of which have been outlined. That doesn't make them "lazy parents". There are tonnes of things I see wrong with the world (in my own eyes) - some of which I have absolutely no control over, some of which I don't feel strongly enough about.
The rest, I try and do something about. That's not being lazy.

eviltwin

kippy wrote: »

If you believe it is a big enough issue for you - you move area. The same as with any decision around this type of thing.

Again, there are choices - they may not always suit you - but that is life.

You see that as an acceptable solution to people like the OP? You don't think the fairer way would be to remove religious instruction from schools altogether or perhaps schedule them for the end of the day so only those who want them stay behind? Wouldn't that be a bit more logical than expecting people to sell their homes or drive for hours?

kippy

eviltwin wrote: »

You see that as an acceptable solution to people like the OP? You don't think the fairer way would be to remove religious instruction from schools altogether or perhaps schedule them for the end of the day so only those who want them stay behind? Wouldn't that be a bit more logical than expecting people to sell their homes or drive for hours?

Isn't the long term goal to do exactly as you have said - there just aren't enough people like the OP to push this through faster - currently if the OP feels strongly enough about it they have a choice to change something within their own control.

(I don't disagree with what you have suggested)

topcelt

All indoctination should be done after hours for those that want it, not during school unless you are in a private religous school. The reason the powers that be do not want this is because their numbers on the register would be slashed dramaticly

Zynks

kippy wrote: »

Isn't the long term goal to do exactly as you have said - there just aren't enough people like the OP to push this through faster - currently if the OP feels strongly enough about it they have a choice to change something within their own control.

(I don't disagree with what you have suggested)

You seem quite sure that "there just aren't enough people like me to push this through faster". I am trying to find evidence that your assumption is correct - or, hopefully, otherwise.

You are right, I am not taking your point as the definitive answer, but I do acknowledge your input.

eviltwin

kippy wrote: »

Isn't the long term goal to do exactly as you have said - there just aren't enough people like the OP to push this through faster - currently if the OP feels strongly enough about it they have a choice to change something within their own control.

(I don't disagree with what you have suggested)

There are two different issues here. Lack of non or multi denominational schools is one, that takes time, schools won't appear overnight.

The second is what some people feel to be the forced indoctrination in religious schools. They could very easily structure the day so all religious education takes place at the end of the day so those who are not Catholic don't have to sit through it.

Instead those who don't go with the status quo are told they should move house or endure excessive commutes. I don't think that's good enough and I don't think it's fair to leave it at that. All children should be able to be educated in their local area, that should not be denied to a child simply because they do not happen to be Catholic.

Mr Arrior

If ya don't like your kids being in a Religious ran school then don't put them in one.
As long as children are safe, I see no problem here.
People love to complain nowadays.

Zynks

Mr Arrior wrote: »

If ya don't like your kids being in a Religious ran school then don't put them in one.
As long as children are safe, I see no problem here.
People love to complain nowadays.

What is your definition of 'safety' for your kids?

Mr Arrior

Zynks wrote:

What is your definition of 'safety' for your kids?

Look it up in the dictionary

Mr Arrior

Zynks wrote:

The multiple daily praying did get me by surprise alright. See, I am not that great a parent...

Zynks wrote:

Do you know how many times does your (assumed) child is made pray daily?

Ur child is praying that you are safe and well. Oh no the horror.

Zynks

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Look it up in the dictionary

OK.

[HTML]safety
ˈseɪfti/Submit
noun
1.the condition of being protected from or unlikely to cause danger, risk, or injury.
"they should leave for their own safety"[/HTML]

But, do you consider safety as a physical issue or mental also? How about respect for individuality? Freedom of expression? The scope of safety can be subjective and personal. If I understand what you mean with "As long as children are safe", it will be easier to address your point.

The_Valeyard

Zynks wrote: »

OK.

[HTML]safety
ˈseɪfti/Submit
noun
1.the condition of being protected from or unlikely to cause danger, risk, or injury.
"they should leave for their own safety"[/HTML]

But, do you consider safety as a physical issue or mental also? How about respect for individuality? Freedom of expression? The scope of safety can be subjective and personal. If I understand what you mean with "As long as children are safe", it will be easier to address your point.

How are they at risk from physical or mental damage?

goz83

Zynks wrote: »

Of course, I do. But I want to be able to tell my kids that I tried to stop the attempts of indoctrination and get them to do more sport or philosophy.

It just isn't OK to expose kids to forced religion (I wasn't allowed to reply "the child hasn't decided yet" to the registration's question "child's religion") and have it funded with tax money, is it?

As the primary educator and decision maker, it is you who has "exposed" your kids to religion. How? You sent them to a catholic school.

Zynks wrote: »

So every parent you 'chat to' is a hypocrite? OK, fine, but unless you are suggesting every other parent also is, your point doesn't add much to the discussion.

I take note though of your preference for keeping things as they are, thanks.

I would say it is quite hypocritical for you to lie when you were registering your kids in the school. Your kids may not have made up their mind on religion, but it seems you had. You still put them into a catholic school.

Zynks wrote: »

I am not a great parent by any means nor was I trying to compare my skills with anyone else's, so I hope this corrects any wrong impressions I may have caused.

Having said that, I do consider it to be lazy parenting to take the easy option out accepting things just as they are.

The multiple daily praying did get me by surprise alright. See, I am not that great a parent...

Do you know how many times does your (assumed) child is made pray daily?

So, you're admitting to lazy parenting.

Mr Arrior

Zynks wrote:

But, do you consider safety as a physical issue or mental also? How about respect for individuality? Freedom of expression? The scope of safety can be subjective and personal. If I understand what you mean with "As long as children are safe", it will be easier to address your point.

Would you cop on, have ya seen today's teenagers and young adults? They make there own choices and none have been affected too badly by praying while in primary school.

Zynks

Mr Arrior wrote: »

Ur child is praying that you are safe and well. Oh no the horror.

So your input I trying to ridicule my views? Fine.

Mr Arrior

Zynks wrote:

So your input I trying to ridicule my views? Fine.

Ah would you grow up and stop complaining. You enroll them in a Catholic school and are shocked when ya hear they pray? Cop on.

Stoner

I'm happy with it yes. My child is starting school soon and I found all that out beforehand.
We moved to a house that was near an array of schools and my child will start in an educate together school because my wife and I looked into it, we found out about the level of religious education beforehand, we completely understand it. We can opt for additional religious education, it's additional hours.

If people don't believe in a god be it. But IMO there are plenty of people out there that simply don't really mind, it's not that they don't care or know, they might not feel very strongly about religion, not enough to speak up or defend it. They might not feel comfortable on the let's equate it to the tooth fairy side either.

So they send their kids to religious schools because maybe they went to one and possibly they have some good memories, or saw a beneficial side to it and think that maybe their kids might get that too. They just might speak up about it.
I've chosen not to send my child to a religious school. TBH I'm not 100 percent with it as I didn't have bad memories from my school where Christian Brothers thought us additional maths after school, sports etc. I've good memories and most of the negativity from my school came from lay teachers. That's obvious looking back at the Facebook page for the school.

We had two suspect guys in our place. A Franciscan priest and a caretaker at the training grounds and in both cases it was a brother and an ex brother that assured they were removed.

I understand that others were unfortunately not as lucky and terrible events happened. I can only talk about the guys in my school most of whom have left the order now and at least two are married. They deserve to be remembered in a good light just as others deserve to be in jail.

But that's my experience. Did I think that any lay teachers were religious or dedicated to it? No.

That was part of my decision tbh. I went for what I considered to be the best education for my child. If that was in a school and environment where there was a religious involvement I'd take it. I'd consider that it might be part of the reason for the better education.

But sending your child to a school that teaches religion does not mean you are a sheep. You just might not think it's a bad thing, or more good than bad at the end of the day.

My argument would be, regardless of the religious side if it. Are any of the old benefits there ?

Edups

Zynks wrote: »

That is where the problem lies. At what stage does it become something to be worked over? Is it that it really doesn't matter, or that we are taking the easy way out and prefer not to "rock the boat"?

I personally couldn't give a rats arse. When they grow up they will decide wheter to accept religon or not. A good lot if not all the students will make their communion and confirmation in primary, they're hardly going to split the classes into religious groups. You don't have to believe it, but it's very single minded not to understand a lot of the Irish population are Catholic.

Absolam

eviltwin wrote: »

The second is what some people feel to be the forced indoctrination in religious schools. They could very easily structure the day so all religious education takes place at the end of the day so those who are not Catholic don't have to sit through it. Instead those who don't go with the status quo are told they should move house or endure excessive commutes. I don't think that's good enough and I don't think it's fair to leave it at that. All children should be able to be educated in their local area, that should not be denied to a child simply because they do not happen to be Catholic.

You're suggesting that a school whose reason for existing is to educate children in a religious context should restructure itself so as to remove that context, in order to serve people who don't want their children educated in that context.
It seems to me the obligation to change in that instance is not on the school but on the parents; if they want a particular format of education for their children (and they're more than entitled to want that, they're entitled to provide it, if they want) it seems pretty unreasonable for them to ask someone providing a format they don't want to change it to one they do.

The obligation to provide education sits squarely with parents; they have a choice to use services to provide it on their behalf if they want, and the State provides for that choice by funding those services. It's readily apparent that the choice of service parents have selected over the last few generations is not as broad (catholic, even) as parents want to have access to in this generation, and presumably future ones, even though the variety has increased enormously over the last few decades. My own feeling is that variety will continue to grow only based on parents actively engaging with their childrens education and involving themselves in providing that education; the parents prepared to make the effort may even make up for those who just want someone else to do it for them.

Mr Arrior

Good reply Stoner. That's it, if your not Religious then that's personal preference, same for being Religious but the way people like to attack Religion nowadays is shameful. If its not for you, it doesnt give you the right to disrespect other peoples beliefs.

Zynks

Zynks wrote: »

Are children not entitled to freedom of religion? How about freedom from religion? We really are just turning a blind eye to what’s happening. We have a government refusing to take responsibility by relying on a heavily tarnished organisation that is just doing the best they can to brainwash our kids into their faith.

Yeah, I can see it coming “we all went through that system and we survived”. Seriously, what happened to you was wrong. What’s happening to our kids is wrong, and by turning a blind eye, we are complicit with this big lie.

Surely you don't believe in freedom of religion for your child, as you sent her to a Catholic school.
Did you baptise her? If she is not baptised then surely you told the school that she wouldn't be part of the religious aspects of school?
If she is baptised, then sorry but you have no argument.

Zynks

Thanks Stoner, good points there. Unfortunately I bought my house before the kids showed up and moving was not an easy option, but happy to see that you took the issue seriously and found the right answers for yourself and the little one(s).

I recognise that my kids are going to a good school, but I feel I should still question their practices when necessary, and religion is the sticky point for me and I think I owe it to my kids to look into it.

I am encouraged by several of the opinions here. There are more people aware of the issue of imposed religion in taxpayer funded schools than I expected to find.

I got a couple of ideas that I intend to follow up on.