Why do parents accept education for their kids "as is"?

Zynks

bubblypop wrote: »

Surely you don't believe in freedom of religion for your child, as you sent her to a Catholic school.
Did you baptise her? If she is not baptised then surely you told the school that she wouldn't be part of the religious aspects of school?
If she is baptised, then sorry but you have no argument.

Thanks, your post illustrates perfectly the implicit pressure that would make many parents sit back and stop questioning things, perpetuating the status quo.

Absolam

Realistically, you sent them to a religious school, and there's no getting away from that fact.

You can require that they are exempted from religious instruction; that's your entitlement, and I'd be willing to bet that if you go to the school and ask for that, you won't be the first parent that has done so, and they'll already have a process in place.

What you can't do is require that your children are not exposed to religion in the school; the school is a religious one and that is part of it's purpose. If that's your expectation, then you need to find another school. Or educate them yourself.

Mr Arrior

Zynks wrote:

Thanks, your post illustrates perfectly the implicit pressure that would make many parents sit back and stop questioning things, perpetuating the status quo.

Just going to ignore the question? Is your child baptised?

Calhoun

I don't accept education "as-is" for my child i have a pretty good idea of the School i want to send her to and the type of education that is supplied.

You must remember that not everyone is an atheist, there are folk who are religious and want that to be thought to their children. For those that don't like it there are the ET schools admittedly though they are in short supply.

What i have no time for though are atheists who send their children to religious schools like its some kind of grand crusade, they will change things from the inside out and make it awkward on their own child and possibly bring them into conflict with others at the school. It's only a pity we don't have the option to advise parents who don't like the ethos of the school to accept it or remove the child.

As for why this isn't a burning issue in my mind, let me tell you something as a parent of a child with learning difficulties its a battle to get the basic early intervention services, this is a non-issue in comparison to how underfunded and bare bones our pre-primary and support services are.

Mr Arrior

Calhoun wrote:

What i have no time for though are atheists who send their children to religious schools like its some kind of grand crusade, they will change things from the inside out and make it awkward on their own child and possibly bring them into conflict with others at the school. It's only a pity we don't have the option to advise parents who don't like the ethos of the school to accept it or remove the child.

This 100 times over.

Calhoun wrote:

As for why this isn't a burning issue in my mind, let me tell you something as a parent of a child with learning difficulties its a battle to get the basic early intervention services, this is a non-issue in comparison to how underfunded and bare bones our pre-primary and support services are.

Brilliant post. The lack of support for children with learning disabilities is shocking. All the best with it.

FortySeven

The argument that we should send them elsewhere is useless. There is no credible provision of elsewhere.

Children should be taught about religions.

They should not be indoctrinated in one.

Give them an education in the basic tenets of all religions and let them decide when they are 18. When we recognise that they are responsible.

It is such a waste of children's learning time and is wholly detrimental to their upbringing in my opinion.

Calhoun

I do agree that is a problem but there are folk within range of an ET school, there is also the opt out others have talked about in this thread.

I wouldn't be against branching out and learning about other religions but there are people who like the ethos of schools and send children there specifically with that in mind.

I would be up for a discussion on a school by school basis where the board of management/parents could do a review of the school ethos and decide what type they want to follow.

Absolam

FortySeven wrote: »

The argument that we should send them elsewhere is useless. There is no credible provision of elsewhere.

If what others provide to service your desires is not credible to you, you should bear in mind that the provision of education is your own responsibility. What others may provide to allow you to choose to do differently are simply potential choices, no more.

FortySeven wrote: »

Children should be taught about religions. They should not be indoctrinated in one. Give them an education in the basic tenets of all religions and let them decide when they are 18. When we recognise that they are responsible. It is such a waste of children's learning time and is wholly detrimental to their upbringing in my opinion.

That certainly tends to be the opinion of those who don't subscribe to religions, but not so much of those who are religious; religious people tend to want their children to learn what their religion requires of them, and assuring them of eternal happiness/enlightenment is orders of magnitude more important than spelling or maths.

FortySeven

Calhoun wrote: »

I do agree that is a problem but there are folk within range of an ET school, there is also the opt out others have talked about in this thread.

I wouldn't be against branching out and learning about other religions but there are people who like the ethos of schools and send children there specifically with that in mind.

I would be up for a discussion on a school by school basis where the board of management/parents could do a review of the school ethos and decide what type they want to follow.

I would much prefer the state to take over the operations of Catholic schools and remove the indoctrination policy.

Let those parents who want Catholic schools in their area fund them privately. Vatican is not short of the money.

FortySeven

The et argument is moot. These schools are oversubscribed and under resources. It is not worth responding to. My nearest et school is 30 miles away. It has a waiting list of years.

I find it incredible that in the UK the majority of pupils leave school without religion. I find it comforting that the only way religion will survive is if we indoctrinate those who cannot question the authority.

It is heartening to read so many posts of responsible parents mocking and belittling prayer and religious practice to their children. I also have to do the same to protect them from it.

Calhoun

Unfortunately i doubt that would happen, right now as atheist seem to be in the minority i think they should be the ones to pick up the tab on the choice of school they want which brings us back to the whole argument of go to an ET school. May not be in the area but they can pay privately.

Not that i'm not sympathetic but i believe your response is not unique. So what's good for the goose is good for the gander as they say.

Calhoun

FortySeven wrote: »

The et argument is moot. These schools are oversubscribed and under resources. It is not worth responding to. My nearest et school is 30 miles away. It has a waiting list of years.

Pay for it privately?

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Absolam wrote:

What you can't do is require that your children are not exposed to religion in the school; the school is a religious one and that is part of it's purpose. If that's your expectation, then you need to find another school. Or educate them yourself.

The whole point of this thread seems to be that there aren't enough Educate Together schools. They should be the norm.

Calhoun wrote:

You must remember that not everyone is an atheist, there are folk who are religious and want that to be thought to their children. For those that don't like it there are the ET schools admittedly though they are in short supply.

Yes but a great number of people would suggest that because religion is not universal, one explicitly taught faith shouldn't be part of education.

FortySeven wrote:

It is such a waste of children's learning time and is wholly detrimental to their upbringing in my opinion.

You are definitely right about that. Two and a half hours per week is supposed to be devoted to the teaching of Catholicism. It makes my skin crawl. I'm just amazed that so many have gone through it and still managed to make the informed decision to reject it. I foresee those numbers exponentially increasing to the point of its cessation.

I can dream.

Calhoun

Joseph Fresh Optometrist wrote: »

Yes but a great number of people would suggest that because religion is not universal, one explicitly taught faith shouldn't be part of education.

They can suggest it all the like but there are others that will disagree. This country has for a long time being Catholic, now that is changing and how we want to support that is a topic we should definitely discuss as a country.

However the point i was trying to illustrate above is that people with atheist beliefs are not in a good position but rather than having a conversation on how best we can support the changing landscape of beliefs in Ireland its a case of my way or the highway.

Don't then be surprised when people push back. As it stands under the current tone of the thread if its good enough for religious people to privately fund why can't atheist?

Absolam

Joseph Fresh Optometrist wrote: »

The whole point of this thread seems to be that there aren't enough Educate Together schools. They should be the norm.

I don't tink that is the point of the thread to be honest; the point seems to be that the op is somewhat disgruntled at the fact that the religious school his children are in has prayers. Nor have you presented any reasoning that ET schools should be the norm; my own expectation is that such schools as parents wish to provide for their children would be the norm since it's their responsibility.

Joseph Fresh Optometrist wrote: »

Yes but a great number of people would suggest that because religion is not universal, one explicitly taught faith shouldn't be part of education.

I'm not so sure of a 'great' number, but certainly a number. Potentially a number less than the number who want their faith to be explicitly taught to their children in school, going by the expressions of interest from parents when tenders for patronage are set out.

Joseph Fresh Optometrist wrote: »

You are definitely right about that. Two and a half hours per week is supposed to be devoted to the teaching of Catholicism. It makes my skin crawl. I'm just amazed that so many have gone through it and still managed to make the informed decision to reject it. I foresee those numbers exponentially increasing to the point of its cessation. I can dream.

Well... definitely right about it from an atheists point of view. Definitely wrong from a Catholics point of view though

FortySeven

I'm happy in the knowledge that there won't be a Catholic church in a few generations. Arguing about it now is pointless. It will die a natural death now we can all travel, use the internet and view the lie in its entirity.

Religion in schools is barbaric. The only difference between God and Santa is that at some point those who lied to us told us the truth about one of them.

Isn't it funny that far from omnipotent, most gods fade away to nothing at the distance of a sailing voyage?

Religion is geographical. We should not abuse our children with this archaeic way of living.

Absolam

FortySeven wrote: »

I'm happy in the knowledge that there won't be a Catholic church in a few generations. Arguing about it now is pointless. It will die a natural death now we can all travel, use the internet and view the lie in its entirity.

I have a sneaking suspicion Paul of Tarsus, Nero, Calvin, Joseph Smith, Stalin and many other luminaries were happy in similar knowledge. So at least you're in good company

FortySeven wrote: »

Religion in schools is barbaric. The only difference between God and Santa is that at some point those who lied to us told us the truth about one of them. Isn't it funny that far from omnipotent, most gods fade away to nothing at the distance of a sailing voyage? Religion is geographical. We should not abuse our children with this archaeic way of living.

It's certainly a point of view. Not exactly a majority point of view, which may explain why most schools don't teach it, but aren't we lucky that we can all put forward our points of view nonetheless.

FortySeven

Absolam wrote: »

I have a sneaking suspicion Paul of Tarsus, Nero, Calvin, Joseph Smith, Stalin and many other luminaries were happy in similar knowledge. So at least you're in good company
It's certainly a point of view. Not exactly a majority point of view, which may explain why most schools don't teach it, but aren't we lucky that we can all put forward our points of view nonetheless.

None of your examples had the internet.



My daughter came through Catholic school. She is in maynooth university now. Atheist. As are 90% of her friends once they get out from under the yoke of their parents peculiar viewpoints.

She says the seminary there is very quiet.

Absolam

FortySeven wrote: »

None of your examples had the internet.

And yet they managed to form their own opinions nonetheless. Amazing, eh? What will people think of next... that they haven't thought of before the internet.

FortySeven wrote: »

My daughter came through Catholic school. She is in maynooth university now. Atheist. As are 90% of her friends once they get out from under the yoke of their parents peculiar viewpoints. She says the seminary there is very quiet.

I imagine it is, especially since a bunch of them got sent off to Rome recently. Did your daughter get help from the internet with the chafing from the yoke of your peculiar viewpoints, or did she manage alright on her own?

Calhoun

FortySeven wrote: »

I'm happy in the knowledge that there won't be a Catholic church in a few generations. Arguing about it now is pointless. It will die a natural death now we can all travel, use the internet and view the lie in its entirity.

Religion in schools is barbaric. The only difference between God and Santa is that at some point those who lied to us told us the truth about one of them.

Isn't it funny that far from omnipotent, most gods fade away to nothing at the distance of a sailing voyage?

Religion is geographical. We should not abuse our children with this archaeic way of living.

Another group of SJW's recently made a similar mistake in that their beliefs were the one and only way and look where that ended for them.

It has already started with atheists they have essentially adopted the mantra of the regions they so hate and rather than come at it from a tolerance perspective we get the militant attacks because they are so righteous in their cause,which drive folk under ground.

FortySeven

Absolam wrote: »

And yet they managed to form their own opinions nonetheless. Amazing, eh? What will people think of next... that they haven't thought of before the internet.

I imagine it is, especially since a bunch of them got sent off to Rome recently. Did your daughter get help from the internet with the chafing from the yoke of your peculiar viewpoints, or did she manage alright on her own?

The internet is at every young persons forefront. They don't need a lifetime of study in dusty libraries to form opinions. They form them in seconds. Religion can be pulled apart fairly easily with modern technology and scientific discoveries we have made in the past 2000 years are plain to see. The days of 'fire bad, sky good' are over.

It took me about half an hour to turn an 18 year old girl to an atheist. She was 90% there already on her own. Even after years of indoctrination by one of the most powerful groups in the world.

Absolam

FortySeven wrote: »

The internet is at every young persons forefront. They don't need a lifetime of study in dusty libraries to form opinions. They form them in seconds. Religion can be pulled apart fairly easily with modern technology and scientific discoveries we have made in the past 2000 years are plain to see. The days of 'fire bad, sky good' are over.

But it was being pulled apart regularly by people over the last 2000 years who didn't have the internet at their forefront, as you put it. Rather than your contention that there won't be a Catholic church in a few generations, I'd contend that history shows there will still be a Catholic church in a few generations, and people will still be pulling it apart.

FortySeven wrote: »

It took me about half an hour to turn an 18 year old girl to an atheist. She was 90% there already on her own. Even after years of indoctrination by one of the most powerful groups in the world.

Really, half an hour? Wow. Did you have the internet at your forefront whilst doing it? Even if you didn't you obviously think it's very impressive that you allowed your own child to be subjected to years of indoctrination by one of the most powerful groups in the world, forcing to believe something you fundamentally disagree with, just to prove your own high speed indoctrinal abilities. I'd say you have a bright and lucrative future in motivational speaking, possibly even politics or religion, ahead of you.

FortySeven

Absolam wrote: »

But it was being pulled apart regularly by people over the last 2000 years who didn't have the internet at their forefront, as you put it. Rather than your contention that there won't be a Catholic church in a few generations, I'd contend that history shows there will still be a Catholic church in a few generations, and people will still be pulling it apart.
Really, half an hour? Wow. Did you have the internet at your forefront whilst doing it? Even if you didn't you obviously think it's very impressive that you allowed your own child to be subjected to years of indoctrination by one of the most powerful groups in the world, forcing to believe something you fundamentally disagree with, just to prove your own high speed indoctrinal abilities. I'd say you have a bright and lucrative future in motivational speaking, possibly even politics or religion, ahead of you.

I allowed it only due to no other option. I have 2 other kids, 9 and 7 and they don't believe either. They're in Catholic school.

I think one of their classmates goes to church. 27 in each class. 1 in 54. It's not being pulled apart. It's been pulled apart.

Absolam

FortySeven wrote: »

I allowed it only due to no other option.

Poor you?

FortySeven wrote: »

I have 2 other kids, 9 and 7 and they don't believe either. They're in Catholic school. I think one of their classmates goes to church. 27 in each class. 1 in 54. It's not being pulled apart. It's been pulled apart.

So, you had an option with them, but not the other one? Are you hoping one of the most powerful groups in the world doesn't come along in a few years and spend half an hour reversing all your efforts with these two? Perhaps that's not a concern since it's been pulled apart though. I imagine Luther thought something similar when he was supposedly nailing his theses to the door.

FortySeven

Absolam wrote: »

Poor you?
So, you had an option with them, but not the other one? Are you hoping one of the most powerful groups in the world doesn't come along in a few years and spend half an hour reversing all your efforts with these two? Perhaps that's not a concern since it's been pulled apart though. I imagine Luther thought something similar when he was supposedly nailing his theses to the door.

The other two are also in Catholic school. I had to go and have a man in a frock rub some olive oil and water on their head to get them in but needs must.

It's not like it means anything anyway.

Another couple of years and theyll be turning their teachers.

FortySeven

Funny you should mention Luther. It reminds me how poor and badly organised those countries are that were left with the old way of doing things. Not even close to a world leader among them.

The watered down modern version of religion seems to be more effective economically and diplomatically. Plenty global leading countries left the old system centuries ago and flourished.

Imagine if we could get rid of religion forever. Prosperity and peace for all.

_Brian

If your not happy OP take your kid out of the school or go ask the school to excuse your kid from the religion class. It's a Catholic school so you get Catholic stuff being taught - hardly a surprise there.

I know in our school religion isn't 30 mins a day. My daughter said yes there were prayers but Most days there is no religion taught, maybe once a week. I myself Don't remember religion being much of the school week either, but remember there were prayers during the day.

And the teachers aren't strangers. They're educational professionals who have been Garda vetted to prove they are suitable to be with children.

Absolam

FortySeven wrote: »

The other two are also in Catholic school. I had to go and have a man in a frock rub some olive oil and water on their head to get them in but needs must.

I understand, you were forced to abandon your first child to the wiles of of indoctrination by one of the most powerful groups in the world, but have managed to subvert the process with the other two by lying about your beliefs. Fair enough.

FortySeven wrote: »

It's not like it means anything anyway.

Of course not! I understand integrity is vastly overrated according to some.

FortySeven wrote: »

Another couple of years and theyll be turning their teachers.

Indeed, given the example they have to follow I imagine there's no end to the japes they'll be up to

Absolam

FortySeven wrote: »

Funny you should mention Luther. It reminds me how poor and badly organised those countries are that were left with the old way of doing things. Not even close to a world leader among them. The watered down modern version of religion seems to be more effective economically and diplomatically. Plenty global leading countries left the old system centuries ago and flourished. Imagine if we could get rid of religion forever. Prosperity and peace for all.

You're recommending Protestant Christianity now? It certainly has a variety of flavours to choose from alright, so there's that in it's favour I suppose. I'm not convinced that those nations that tried to get rid of religion forever are exactly models of prosperity and peace though. Perhaps one of those children with the internet at their forefront can help you figure that one out? But don't ask them to indulge your predilection for rubbing with olive oil... that could go wrong quickly.

FortySeven

Absolam wrote: »

Indeed, given the example they have to follow I imagine there's no end to the japes they'll be up to

I assume you mean me lying to get them in. Hmm. That priest knew I was an atheist. I told him it was just to get them in school. He didn't care, desperate I suppose. Eager to perhaps hopefully fill his empty pews. He even knew my children are bastards, all 3, and one is not even mine.

Really lowering the bar they are. Let anyone in nowadays. A few years ago he'd have probably thrown them in a laundry, or a boys home, or a septic tank.