GARDAI SEIZED RIFLES (September 06) new licence from Dec

Tricky1127

Can anyone help me with this I've got two rifles taking by the Gardai both of these are straight pull single shot (not semi auto) similar to that of a bolt action can't get any of the officers involved with it to tell me what is going on am a Left-hand shooter and these are hard to get + they have been inspected lots of times in the past never a problem the Gardai received a complaint from a local member of the name less public (Name Less) so they turned up looking to inspected the security of the said property only to say that the Super Intendant want them to be tested & seized this was in August 2016 so what could I do but hand them over (In Ireland we only have permission from the state to have/use no rights) one officer said that it could be that they look military type..? one does have a ten round mag the other takes a single round magazine have phoned them leaving messages to ask what is happening but get no reply from the Gardai or the Super Intendant can't make an appointment to see them what's my next step have phoned NARGC just keep getting the answer machine and left voice mail nothing very disappointed money well spent.
In short I don't want to make trouble for the Gardai or go to War with them just want it sorted out and my rifles returned intact Oh yeah I even got them ammo to test fire them to help speed up the process
Signed A Target Shooter and Hunter

gunny123

Sorry, but maybe i am missing something ? Are the straight pulls semi-auto type rifles converted to straight pull ? There are hundreds of black plastic stocked rifles licenced out there, what has a "military look" got to do with anything ? Did you get a receipt from the guards when they confiscated your private property ?

Tricky1127

Told me that they don't have to give a receipt at this point but would give me one later..... Heard Nothing else from him in writing or getting him on the phone left lots of messages no reply (Southern Gun Company England AR10T) H&K R8

Tricky1127

H&K SL8 R8 .223Rem + S.G.C, AR10-T in .260 Rem

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Told me that they don't have to give a receipt at this point but would give me one later..... Heard Nothing else from him in writing or getting him on the phone left lots of messages no reply (Southern Gun Company England AR10T) H&K R8

Nice guns. I reckon they will have sent it to the ballistics "expert" in Dublin to find out if its possible to convert them back to semi-auto. The guy here who will know is Grizzly45, he has been down the road with issues to do with semi-auto centrefire rifles. Personally if it were me i would have demanded a receipt.

Also do you have any paperwork from southern gun or the proof house in the uk to state the gun has been irreversibly converted to straight pull ?

Tricky1127

The side of the AR10-T has been C&C machined making it Left-hand so that a gas system wouldn't work even if fitted. H&K same but was a piston system machined so if fitted wouldn't work

Tricky1127

Southern Gun Company are only allowed to make Section 1 fire arms so no auto or semi auto Semi-Auto centre fire is section 5 in the UK Banned in 1997 I believe

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

The side of the AR10-T has been C&C machined making it Left-hand so that a gas system wouldn't work even if fitted. H&K same but was a piston system machined so if fitted wouldn't work

Explaining that to most guards is like trying to teach a monkey calculus. They won't take your word for it either, so i reckon they are being taken to bits in the ballistics dept.

Tricky1127

I have visions of a spanner specialists trying to figure it out and usIng Wikipedia and Google PSNI, London Met , and Surrey Police service did it in a few minutes

Cass

1. When the Gardaí arrived did they have a letter of revocation from the Super?
2. Did they have a letter from the Super/Super's office to say the firearm were to be taken away to be tested?
3. Were the Gardaí present competent to handle firearms?
4. Did you ask had they experience in handling firearms before?
5. Did you offer to follow them/accompany them to the station and hand the firearms over yourself due to concerns about their ability to handle them?

The above would have been the first things i'd have done. Without any letters from the Super no one would be taking my firearm from my house. I would even go so far as to politely inform the Gardaí present that due to the serious safety concerns i had in relation to the firearm and the ability of them to safely and competently handle them i would await a letter (and letter only, no calls) from the Super assuring me that the Gardaí present were competent and that the firearm are being requested for testing by his/her office.

If you have committed no offence, and they have no letter from the Super (testing or revocation) then frankly, and IMO, they have no authority to seize the firearms.

As said above if they done any of this without issuing a receipt for the firearm and informing me of the storage location and testing location of the firearms they sure as sh*t wouldn't be getting them.

Lastly the ammo. Absolutely under no circumstances should you have handed them (the firearms in my opinion) the ammunition. An Gardaí do not have a range and therefore have no where to test the rifles. They must "borrow" a range to fire them on and the only ranges in the country that are rated for such calbires are the Midlands in Tullamore, Harbour House in Kildare and An Roicht in Kerry. You should not have handed the ammo over, and if the seizure is legit they should be able and prepared to test the various calibres of firearms they want to test. Perhaps they have a bullet box, but all that will tell them is the gun fires that round.

My advice is get up, right now, and get to the station these Gardaí were from. Demand, and i mean demand, a meeting with the Super. Ask all the questions above and also why you were not kept informed as to the status of the testing procedures, the location of your property (they might be firearms, but they are your property, always, regardless of license status), and the estimated return date of your property.

If they refuse to meet then contact a solicitor and inform them of what is happening. Have them on stand by should this escalate, but don't leave it too long to get your ducks in a row. Also contact the Chief Super's office if the Super refuses to meet, contact the Firearm Policy Unit (cannot do much, but call everyone), send an e-mail to the NARGC (but only if you are a member as they don't deal with non members), also contact any shooting ranges/groups you are a member of and inform them of what is happening.

You need to act now to get ahead of this.

Cass

Oh, by the way just in case anyone thinks they might see me on the news some day. I am absolutely NOT saying you should cause a stand off between yourself and RRU/ARU.

You SHOULD completely comply with any member of An Gardai, however do so in a safe and competent manner so as to ensure your rights (as little as they are) and the safety of everyone concerned are met and obeyed.

There is no position of Firearms Officer within An Gardaí. Its a title we (the shooting community) have imposed on the unlucky sod that gets landed with the role. As such the majority of An Gardaí in this position have no firearms knowledge and most definitely no training on the safe and competent handling of firearms.

So it is not civil disobedience i am calling for, but an exercising of common sense and safety.

Tricky1127

Cass. Nobody on here would think that you are going to climb up a clock tower and we all know that we only have permission from the state to own/use firearms in Ireland
1/ It was an officer I know as an Garda F.O
2/ I offered to drop them off but was told that it was only to Chq the security ��
3/ On asking for something on paper to see was told it was a spoken order past on to him by the Super + he would write something out for me at a later stage (Never got anything he doesn't respond to call & messages)
4/I am a NARGC member
5/ Have to start a writing campaign at this stage and this only makes more work for them and will start a resentment..!! if from past experiences are to go from

gunny123

I had a similar experience years ago when the pistols were licenced first. I had a glock 17. One night late, well after 10pm, the doorbell rung and there was a little baldy article at the door in plain clothes. He produced his warrant card/id and asked if i had a glock pistol. I said i did and let him in. Anyway he took the pistol, i insisted on a receipt before i would let it out of my sight. It was many months (6+ i seem to recall) and a lot of hastle before i seen it again. The only explaination i could get as to why this had happened was, glocks were the most commonly used pistols in crime/gangland murders and the pistol was taken for ballistic testing.

You could be in for a long wait until you get it back no matter what happens. But don't go too softly softly with them just because they are coppers, they are quite capable of acting the maggot when it suits. You should be entitled to know where your property is, and what sort of person is taking it apart, a ballistic/firearms expert or the local plod with a lidl screwdriver set.

When i got my glock back it was filthy and had not been looked after.

Sparks

Um. At this point I'd be on to the super Tricky, (2) and (3) taken together there are sufficiently odd that I'd want to hear it from the horses mouth just as due diligence alone, let alone all other considerations. I mean, right now you have no idea where it is, you've handed it over to someone who didn't show you the appropriate paperwork along with ammunition, and you haven't a scrap of paper to show in court or a single witness to call on in the event that something untoward was to happen (and we know of at least one case where the Gardai allowed surrendered firearms to be misplaced and subsequently used in crimes so we're not in the world of fantasy here, but history).

And I'd be on to my NGB today as well so they could bring it up through their FCP channels with the FPU.

gunny123

Could the gardai deny all knowledge of the firearms ? Its only tricky's word that they took them. Why were they so reluctant to issue a simple receipt ? It could just be laziness or the usual FU attitude.

Tricky1127

Oh yeah the reason given was an Anonymous member of the public had been worried about Animal welfare...!! B/S in my own opinion + I didn't want to start a shouting match in my home thinking if it was before a judge and two official garda was later to say I was in fear of my life because "Rocket Launcher" was with in feet of the Defendant...! and what happened to Gunny123 is B/S because of it been a Glock (ffs) am sure if Gunny123 was living a life of crime his Pistol wouldn't be licensed/registered. And thanks Sparks for your help will have a good think my way forward tonight

tac foley

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Southern Gun Company are only allowed to make Section 1 fire arms so no auto or semi auto Semi-Auto centre fire is section 5 in the UK Banned in 1997 I believe

The semi-auto centre-fire ban came into force in 1988 after the earlier Hungerford massacre.

Southern Gun Company has been making LEGAL straight-pull firearms for sporting and leisure purposes since shortly after that date. All are made using specifically manufactured components that have NEVER been part of a working semi-automatic centre-fire firearm. THAT is the law in UK. Those components sourced in the USA are specially made for his products, inevitably leading to the high prices that he charges for his extremely popular products.

There are probably around twenty such firearms belonging to fellow club members, and hundreds, if not thousands of his guns used the Civilian Service Rifle competitions run throughout the mainland UK ever year.

To treat them as though they had arrived from another planet is a gross waste of expensive police time.

tac

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Oh yeah the reason given was an Anonymous member of the public had been worried about Animal welfare...!!

Do you have any neighbours who know you have the rifles and might be antis ? Were you shooting near a road or laneway and might have been seen ?

Cass

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Oh yeah the reason given was an Anonymous member of the public had been worried about Animal welfare...!!

WTF has that to do with An Gardaí?

That is an issue for ISPCA, who have no authority whatsoever to question you about firearms. Even if An Gardaí decided they'll kill a few hours checking out a complaint about animal welfare, again, what has it to do with your firearms?

I believe everything you've told us, but i'm struggling to understand and believe the motives. Animal welfare, turning into security check, turning into seizure of guns, turning into testing. All done without written authorisation, prior notice, evidence of competency on the part of the Gardaí at your door to safey handle the firearms.

Alarms bells should be screaming in your head at this point.

Tricky1127

Nothing like that it's a anonymous member of the public who thinks they heard a firearm in a different property of mine (fixer up house) no name given to the Gardai or asked for...... anonymous is a good tool for a vengeful person I can phone up and say Gunny123 from Ireland is at the school gates again and am afraid for the little children, My head doesn't work that way if Gunny123 was to upset me we could have words and then I'd forget about it not plot my own back on Gunny

Tricky1127

Cass, The Alarm Bells are still ringing the hole thing start till now makes sense to me it's the anonymous thing I've got no idea what has been said ie he killed a cat in a busy city centre for no reason other than to see if he could...!!

Tricky1127

Just a quick note still have the shotgun etc

Cass

Well here is a question or two.

1. Did they use the generic term Animal welfare?
2. Did they name an offence?
3. Did they imply or outright say that the animal welfare issue was tied to the firearm?

Trust when i say this, as i'm sure you and everyone else is all too aware of. If you were suspected of an offence in relation to your gun they would be nothing short of raiding your home and taking the safes with the guns inside.

They would not be there changing their minds or stories as to the reasons. It would be a Section 8 offence (at the very least) and they would take EVERYTHING. They would also come prepared with a letter of revocation or in the case of them believing you a threat to public safety, with more Gardaí or armed Gardaí and it would have occurred instantly.

Based on what you've said, and trying my best to follow, this seems like a call to your home, based on an anonymous and baseless complaint, which spiraled into something far more. It also seems like the Garda members there escalated the situation and will now, retrospectively, apply any authroisation needed to justify their actions.

I remember some years back a friend having something similar and when he showed the Garda his single barrel shotgun the Garda was shocked at the size of the "Rifle" stating not even the army had guns that big. My point is they saw your firearms and because they did not resemble the normal looking rifles in the country they got spooked, assumed they must be more than they arm (due to lack of knowledge) and decided to enforce their misgivings by seizing the guns.

It's why they left you with the shotgun. They are "normal" looking.

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Just a quick note still have the shotgun etc

That proves the animal welfare story is a lie then.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Are you sure it was the Gardaí that called to your door? :eek:

Tricky1127

Yes it was I know the officers involved to see one is a F.O
And yes everything was taken from me few days later I was at the station and got the officer involved he said that the Super Intendant wanted to check if the rifles are legal so that testing has to be done and the rest was handed over to me that was August again asked for something in writing he laughed saying that he was on the of his head and would sort it out... remember that I didn't want to start fighting with them just wanted it to be fixed and finish with no problems with them (Has anyone ever gotten it your way fighting with a Copper.?)

gunny123

Have you asked to see the superintendent ? If you have and he has refused, time for Willie Egan to get involved.

Tricky1127

Have to ask in writing to see him as of today's last phone call to his office

Cass

Tricky1127 wrote: »

............. he said that the Super Intendant wanted to check if the rifles are legal .............

Erm, should he not have done this BEFORE issuing the licenses?

I mean really, come on. As for testing i suppose they would want to see if you can flick a switch to turn it into a semi auto, etc, but again these steps should have been addressed/taken BEFORE the licenses were issued.

Cass

By the way on this:

Tricky1127 wrote: »

2/ I offered to drop them off but was told that it was only to Chq the security ��

As i said if it was an animal welfare issue it'd be the ISPCA, but in matters of security for firearms it's the Crime Prevention Officer (CPO) that visits you. They are actually trained and appointed to do just that job. The position is an official one unlike the Firearms Officer position.

Grizzly 45

Lawyer up!!You are being jerked about!
This is another "idontlokethelookodatnow!" case.At this stage anyone with cop on will know the difference between a straight pull and a semi auto.There have been numerous cases with SA and straight pulls over the last decade with the same stunt being pulled for ballistic testing...It just so happens since our friend Det ins Brookes left AGS has NO ballistics expert..So they could hold onto them until a replacement is promoted to fill the gap
Again we have here the OP acting in good faith and some naiveity being taken advantage of by the AGS.
Spurious reasons all over the place from the word go.Cass has pretty much daid the procedure to deal with this and I would say screw not making a fuss..Get a lawyer that KNOWS the gun laws here and go to town on this Super..It is an outrage that they are still pulling this kind of nonsense in this day and age.