GARDAI SEIZED RIFLES (September 06) new licence from Dec

Grizzly 45

Ok..Lets sort out something here and now!This "looks like"nonsense has been dealt with categoricaly in both the DC the HC with pistols in both .22 and over and with rifles in about a dozen DC cases. Not to mind even on the EU level at the current time!
FORM does not imply FUNCTION is the watch phrase here and has bern accepted.As there is NO definition of what an "assault rifle"is in the legislation either and this vauge bad descriptions in the guidelines only adds to the confusion.If they claim these are restricted because they are assault riflesAsk which army uses them??.It will be the first case in history of a bolt action assault rifle being used by any army.This might be converted to semi auto nonsense in both guns in this case is a bagatell especially if one was manufactured in the UK.AGAIN we have some clown in AGS ballistics either not having a clue about the law or the firearms mechanisms.Or a YES man parroting what the Super wants to hear. I suspect the latter.At this stage lawyer up .This is an utter farsce and outrage of sheer incompetance of the first degree that needs to be exposed and rightly so.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

I remember when clinton brought in the assault weapons ban in the usa, there were endless court cases arguing what exactly was and wasn't an assault weapon, and what features constitute an assault rifle.

Semi auto action ? Doesn't in of itself mean a firearm is an assault weapon, lots of shotguns, rifles are semi-auto. (doesn't matter in this instance anyway)

A flash hider/muzzle brake ? Nope lots of hunting bolt actions have these.

Black plastic stock ? Nope, lots of shotguns, rifles and pistols have plastic furniture.

Pistol grip ? Nope, most olympic target rifles have pistol grips.

Detachable magazine ? Nope, most rifles have a detachable magazine.

If the might of the american government couldn't define what an assault rifle was, how on earth do a local super/chief super do so ?

It fell to the fact that in the end states banned features.Like flash hiders.Replaced by muzzle brakes.Pistol grips became thumb hole stocks etc.In the end only Democrat states like CA and East left coast states kept this nonsense under the Clinton crime control bill after it grandfathered and GW Bush refused to re authorise it.(about the only sensible thing he did).So you then had post crime bill guns which look the same as before.
Even now you can buy straight pull and pump action ARs etc in the semi auto ban states and its utterly irrevelant what is on them or their magazine capacity.As they arent semi autos.
Here in this case we have a case of serious gobdawery and not knowing what the law actually says andi terperting as a Super sees fit.

Sparks

gunny123 wrote: »

I remember when clinton brought in the assault weapons ban in the usa

Okay, can we not do this?
You're talking about a different term, defined in a different act, in a different jurisdiction, in a completely different system of government.
I get that there's a very, very, very broad parallel, but it's so generic that it's less helpful than nothing at all.

The specific definition we have to worry about is the one in the restricted firearms SI listed above.

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok..Lets sort out something here and now!This "looks like"nonsense has been dealt with categoricaly in both the DC the HC with pistols in both .22 and over and with rifles in about a dozen DC cases.

Which means it hasn't been.
DC cases don't set precedents; and pistol cases wouldn't have to refer to a definition of a kind of rifle, even with this piece of dross of a law.
If you know of a judgement in the HC that specifically addressed the assault rifle "resembles" problem and which somehow stated the Gardai had to ignore that part of the SI (even that idea sounds like exceeding the legal authority of the court), then I'd love to read it.

FORM does not imply FUNCTION is the watch phrase here and has bern accepted.

For pistols and other cases yes; but the SI very explicitly here says that FORM is the deciding factor and FUNCTION is unrelated to it.
I don't agree with that being in the law and I've argued against it for a few years, but it's still there and it's still in the law until it gets fixed.

As there is NO definition of what an "assault rifle"is in the legislation either

It's in the restricted firearms SI. I've quoted it above.

If they claim these are restricted because they are assault riflesAsk which army uses them?

The definition of "assault rifle" in the Act has nothing to do with the real life definition of the term which is why I was explicitly stating "in the act" over and over like a broken record up above.
What an assault rifle really is has absolutely nothing to do with the legal term "assault rifle" in Ireland. It just doesn't. We can bemoan their poor choice of term all we want, it won't change that, until and unless we change it in the SI.

This is an utter farsce and outrage of sheer incompetance of the first degree that needs to be exposed and rightly so.

It's not the worst I've ever heard of, but it's definitely not acceptable and needs to be addressed, for about a dozen different reasons.

gunhappy_ie

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Told me that they don't have to give a receipt at this point but would give me one later..... Heard Nothing else from him in writing or getting him on the phone left lots of messages no reply (Southern Gun Company England AR10T) H&K R8

Feck in hell..... a HK R8 never thought is hear of 1 of those here as they were designed by HK for countries that wouldnt allow Semi autos like Australia and the UK . I had a SL8

Tricky1127

UK Dealer would get you one or even convert the SL8 you have or had to the R8 version no problem they would love to see more of H&K in civil hands that's what SL8 is designed for civil use I'm not sure if it is still made because it didn't sell in numbers but if you are a Left-hand shooter very easy to recycle A+++

gunhappy_ie

Tricky1127 wrote: »

UK Dealer would get you one or even convert the SL8 you have or had to the R8 version no problem they would love to see more of H&K in civil hands that's what SL8 is designed for civil use I'm not sure if it is still made because it didn't sell in numbers but if you are a Left-hand shooter very easy to recycle A+++

your missing my point..... I wouldnt want a straight pull when I have several Semi autos.

Hk either has stopped selling them or is winding down because now they moved toward the HK 243

Grizzly 45

[quote="Sparks;101695479)


Which means it hasn't been.
DC cases don't set precedents; and pistol cases wouldn't have to refer to a definition of a kind of rifle, even with this piece of dross of a law.
If you know of a judgement in the HC that specifically addressed the assault rifle "resembles" problem

I do belive there is one and Im trying to find it.DC cases mightnt set precedent but at this stage with a 98% win on the definition of what a Modern sporting rifle is compared onto what an assault rifle is.It would be an intredting case to see a HC reverse that and go against fellow judges decisions.Has that ever happened?


It's in the restricted firearms SI. I've quoted it above.


And its faulty and has been discredited about 30 plus times that I know of...Are 30 DC justices wrong then in their interpertation of the law?
Even the AGS conceeded my case in Oct 14 that this" looks like "was not going to win the case at that was their only arguement to refuse my liscense.No one in their right mind was going to accept that because there was a 1950s design called the AR10 that
this was the same as a 2009 design with the same moniker.In this case it is even more farsical that they are trying to compare utterly unlike with nothing the same.
Even more of a joke is that there are numerous of these types liscensed around the 32 counties with no trouble at all.



It's not the worst I've ever heard of, but it's definitely not acceptable and needs to be addressed, for about a dozen different reasons.[/quote]

No matter what thats a fact?

tac foley

'Even more of a joke is that there are numerous of these types liscensed around the 32 counties with no trouble at all.'

Not in six counties out of that total there aren't.

Northern Ireland, part of the UK, does NOT allow civilian possession of semi-auto centre-fire rifled firearms of any kind.

tac

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I do belive there is one and Im trying to find it.

Let me know if you find it, I'd be genuinely interested in reading it.

DC cases mightnt set precedent but at this stage with a 98% win on the definition of what a Modern sporting rifle is compared onto what an assault rifle is.It would be an intredting case to see a HC reverse that and go against fellow judges decisions.Has that ever happened?

Yes. HC court cases on firearms have gone against other HC decisions too, explicitly. First example that comes to mind is that we had several HC decisions saying you couldn't consider the firearm independently of the applicant, and then one HC case (McCarron if I remember right) said the Super could consider the nature of the firearm as well as the applicant and that overturned the earlier precedent. It got appealed to the SC and the SC upheld it.

And its faulty and has been discredited about 30 plus times that I know of...Are 30 DC justices wrong then in their interpertation of the law?

I think it's more likely that 30 DC justices haven't ruled explicitly on this. But if they did, yes, they'd be wrong. The law was passed by the Oireachtas (I know it's an SI, but the Oireachtas explicitly gave permission for the SI to be drafted). A DC judge can say it's daft but he or she cannot just overrule it, or they wouldn't be the judiciary, they'd be the executive and any JR would throw it out on its ear because there's a shedload of precedent against that (even in our little nook of the law, there's Dunne). They can interpret the law, not rewrite it. And when the law is as clearly (though stupidly) written as it is above, when it explicitly says that the the form is to be considered regardless of the function, well, what leeway have they got?
That being said, if that one line isn't on the table near the top of the list for the next rewrite of the SI, I'd say someone in either the DoJ or the other FCP bodies was not on the ball at all. It's a horrendous piece of legislation and is in dire need of being shredded by the Minister. And since it's an SI, that's doable in a neat fashion without a shouting session in the Dail.

No matter what thats a fact?

Yup.

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

For searching there definitely isn't, but for inspection I think there is (but again, IANAL, and we've never pushed this one in court).
The difference between the two btw, being that a search has no specific target while an inspection is highly specific ("this safe, in this house, to verify it meets these standards, and has these contents, in accordance with your licence").

So in the case of the OP they entered under the guise of animal welfare, which turned into an inspection (not search).

It'd be academically interesting to try it at court... but I'll let you go first

Erm, no. Hell no, No, no, no. Can think of much better things to do with a few grand (or hundred thousand in the case of HC).

tac foley wrote: »

Not in six counties out of that total there aren't.

Northern Ireland, part of the UK, does NOT allow civilian possession of semi-auto centre-fire rifled firearms of any kind.

tac

Really? No semi auto centrefires in NI? I know they have rimfire, but was unaware of the CF issue.

UK law does not automatically apply. Northern Ireland, under the Good Friday Agreement, has the power to govern for itself which includes firearms. Its why there are handguns in the north but not UK. It's why you need an FAC for air rifles in the North, but no the UK (up to a limit).

So the UK laws are not a guide of what is allowed/legal in the North.

Tricky1127

Oh I just target shooter and some vermin control semi auto are fun but I don't need one + I've got a semi auto 12G and it has me total covered for my shootIng needs and am very old school in that give "it" a sporting chance so if I can't get it done by 1 shot it gets away from me I don't like it but thems the rules i go by.... but that's me and we are all individuals in or sport what works for me might not be any good for someone else. I ended up with those rifles because of shooting left handed am not anti gun at all (as long as you know what you are doing..!! and nothing dodgy) if I was to make a mistake we all pay for it with regards shooting sports

Tricky1127

If you have been up North in the past 10 years they have some lovely rifles shotgun and pistols/revolvers hard to believe that because of the history of the island but the police do know what's what and have a good attitude with the shooting community up there.... Mad isn't it

Tricky1127

I would be over and back to the UK so a Semi Auto rifle personal wouldn't work on the ranges

Traumadoc

Cass wrote: »

No. It's a form. An application. I want the piece of law that says i must allow warrantless entry to my home.

Plus the FCA1 does not say "You must allow members of An Gardaí to enter your home to search it as they feel like it" or something along those lines.

We've discussed this before. The FCA1 has a section that asks if you comply with the security standards based on the level of firearm ownership (level 1, level 2, etc). If the CPO arrives at your home and says s/he is there to check on those security measures i do not HAVE TO let him/her in. However if i don't s/he will simply mark me down as uncooperative, and could say how they could not gain access to check.

I would most likely then receive a letter or visit to revoke my guns for failure to be able to confirm i conform to the security standards.

The same thing applies to medical information. You disclose personal info like GP, other doctors, and give your consent for them to make contact should they need to/desire. This consent essentially signs away your right to privacy and although i've not heard of a case yet, it'd be interesting to see what would happen if someone refused to give out such private medical details. Also would a Doctor give details to someone that rang up or called in? Does the FCA1 constitute allow them to divulge your medical information?

Again its a case of attaining private and privileged information via an underlying hint of refusal if you fail to do so.

The guards may have your GPs name, but without written permission from your patient you do not have the right to share any medical information, unless there is a clear risk to society in general.

I regularly refuse to provide gardai information as I do not have written permission from the patient.

tac foley

Quote -

Prohibited weapons and ammunition.

(1)Section 5 of the M1Firearms Act 1968 (in this Act referred to as “the principal Act”) shall have effect with the following amendments the purpose of which is to extend the class of prohibited weapons and ammunition, that is to say weapons and ammunition the possession, purchase, acquisition, manufacture, sale or transfer of which requires the authority of the Secretary of State.
(2)For paragraph (a) of subsection (1) there shall be substituted—
“(a)any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can be successively discharged without repeated pressure on the trigger;
(ab)any self-loading or pump-action rifle other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges;
(ac)any self-loading or pump-action smooth-bore gun which is not chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges and either has a barrel less than 24 inches in length or (excluding any detachable, folding, retractable or other movable butt-stock) is less than 40 inches in length overall; End quote.

Please note that Northern Ireland IS included in this legislation, as a component part of the UK.

The reason that Northern Ireland still allows ownership of modern cartridge-firing handguns is that despite all the murder and mayhem that took place during the period 1969 -1995, the use of LEGALLY-held handguns to commit any kind of crime was so small that the figures do not appear in the legislation records. Indeed, although there were indisputably a number of incidents that could be rightly described as massacres, none were carried out with legally-held firearms.

With a record like that, it comes as no surprise that the NIA told the Westminster government to go p*ss up a rope and ignored the mainland UK handgun ban on cartridge-firing handguns.

tac

tac foley

This is an excerpt borrowed from the Southern Gun Company's own website, with thanks to Mr Bob Smith. It is available to anybody with access to the internet, and we must therefore include the firearms experts in Phoenix Park in that number. Note that Bob and his team have now made in excess of four thousand UK legal straight-pull rifles and carbines, so it must be taken as read that

a. He knows what he is doing.

b. What he is doing is totally legal in every respect.

Quote -

Welcome to Southern Gun Company
Videos

During this 2015 to 2016 year we have completed our four thousandth custom AR15 rifle, which was a further milestone for us. We have reinvested in more state of the art CNC equipment for our expanded workshop facility’s, which has allowed us to increase our parts range and production capability, we now also supply several American AR 15 producers with Hi Tech alternative parts and systems, with exports to the USA now forming over half of our turnover. It is a source of continued consternation to us that some shooters actually re import parts that we make and sell here as well as in the USA. At present if it is plastic we don’t make it if it’s alloy or steel we have a one or more versions in production or planned For our return and multiple gun customers, please accept our thanks for your continued support and know that we shall try our best to continue with a line of innovative and high quality rifles and accessories and provide support and upgrade services to keep your rifles unbeatable.

Since we started producing these rifles, we have been aware of the laws concerning the conversion of semi automatic weapons to Section 1 UK legal firearms, we have therefor either made our own major component (the lower receiver) or in the early days contracted an American company to do that for us and register the serial nos with the US BATF as single shot only at manufacture. The serial nos of lower receivers purchased from the US without that specific registration are listed by the BATF as semi automatic or fully automatic rifles ( in the USA the lower is the rifle ) the implication is clear. Should you decide to purchase from another source your rifle, for your own security, ensure that this has been done.

For our rifles, we now produce all types of high accuracy, lower receivers, bolts, carriers and many special parts that go to make up a finished SGC Custom Rifle.

Whilst the AR-15 and M16 style rifle has become our major preoccupation since fifteen years ago, next year will be our forty sixth year as Rifle makers, during that time many sections of legislation have been enacted to make the most law abiding element (shooters), of our society, into scapegoats for an increasingly lawless and paranoid environment created by the ceaseless erosion of standards, responsibility’s and personal freedoms.

Long may we continue as responsible shooters to maintain ours. End quote.

tac

gunny123

Knowing how stringent the laws regarding firearms are in the uk, i would have thought if you wanted a straight pull that could not be suggested was capable of being converted to semi-auto, then a southern guns rifle would be the one to go for. The uk home office would be a lot more professional in their appraisals than the crowd here.

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

'Even more of a joke is that there are numerous of these types liscensed around the 32 counties with no trouble at all.'

Not in six counties out of that total there aren't.

Northern Ireland, part of the UK, does NOT allow civilian possession of semi-auto centre-fire rifled firearms of any kind.

tac

I was referring to straight pull Bolt actions.

Melodeon

While "Idontlikedalookodat" is enshrined in law as detailed by Sparks above, none of the above cuts any ice here in Ireland, unfortunately.
Legally speaking, if a firearm resembles an 'assault rifle', it IS an 'assault rifle', and is therefore subject to all the restrictions and prohibitions that entails.

Tricky1127

I have the feeling that I've been put into the pigeon hole marked "Idontlikedalookodat" and the legislation that is in place in my own opinion is going to be twisted for there agenda

tac foley

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I was referring to straight pull Bolt actions.

Ah, you mean the various modern sporting/hunting/stalking straight-pulls like the Blaser, Krico, certain Mausers et al?

Not forgetting the historical Swiss Schmidt-Rubins and K31, the Austrian Mannlichers, the Canadian Ross and the US Navy Lee, of course.

However, the 'straight-pulls' in this thread are the UK manufacturers' responses to the banning of semi-automatic firearms like the formerly civilian-legal semi-automatic ARs and so on, rather than the civilian market or historical market firearms.

All of them, by definition, could be correctly classed as straight-pulls, of course, since they all possess a bolt of one form or another that is actuated by pulling straight back instead of turning. The latter are generically referred to as 'turn-bolt' actions.

Apologies for thread drift.

tac

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

Knowing how stringent the laws regarding firearms are in the uk, i would have thought if you wanted a straight pull that could not be suggested was capable of being converted to semi-auto, then a southern guns rifle would be the one to go for. The uk home office would be a lot more professional in their appraisals than the crowd here.

Indeed, there are a number of UK-based manufacturers of straight-pull rifles and carbines based on the AR - Bradley Guns and Lantac come to mind instantly, with others not far behind.

Most of them actually manufacture their own lowers in house - the parts that hold the trigger mechanism that controls the rate of fire. None of them could be converted to semi-automatic action without extensive re-manufacturing that is way beyond the average tampering of a would-be gun thief. In any case, why go to the trouble of stealing a straight-pull firearm, when you can easily obtain the real thing for a couple of hundred quid/euros? As an aside, let's not overlook that the president of the Liége Proof House, Jean-Luc Stassen, has himself been charged with gun-trafficking and falsification of disposal documentation with regard to at least two-hundred and fifty FULLY automatic firearms of the kind that are prohibited throughout the EU. [See Brussels Times - http://www.brusselstimes.com/rss-feed/6819/weapons-proofhouse-of-liege-arrest-warrant-issued-for-director].

To my knowledge, bearing in mind that that I no longer have direct access to Home Office records, there has never actually been a theft of a modern AR-style straight-pull firearm in the UK since records of their tenure began in the late 1980s.

tac

Grizzly 45

Tricky1127 wrote: »

I have the feeling that I've been put into the pigeon hole marked "Idontlikedalookodat" and the legislation that is in place in my own opinion is going to be twisted for there agenda

Unless you let them of course.
Contary to all the doom&gloom here on this.There are enough cases that have passed in the DC,where people HAVE won their right to liscense semi auto rifles with "military features.I myself have done this three times , and off the top of my head there are at least two other posters here who have done likewise.Where the AGS all fell was literally on this looks like nonsense.They couldn't prove that just on looks that a modern sporting rifle was the same as a assault rifle.Nor could they on component parts,or caliber.[In your case no known army or police dept uses 260].
Even good reason for use was proven with a shoot down in a n Riocht for semi autos ,[where Insp K Brookes,CS D Shehan nd Sgt Paul Greene were orderd to attend by the Limerick DC ]and is regulary shot in bullseye360 in midlands.Where btw there are a couple of lads who use straight pulls s well.
This has been proven to work from 30.06 garands to AR and HK designs,all in the dreaded semi auto configuration.Now,you mean to tell methat all this [1]Isnt known by AGS?Considering they lost their cheif ballistics expert because of these fiascos?

2]Unless your Super has been living under a rock for the last few years, he will be or should be well aware of this development,and hopefully now of the potential Pandoras box he is about to open on this.

[3]Irrespective of "looks" or what bits that are on it this is still a bolt action rifle,and were it to be classified as restrictedthat would mean ANY bolt action target rifle owner with a pistol gripped stock or other weird bit on the gun would find themselves being recategorised as resricted.Something the made sure of was not going to happen to them in the 2008act.After all the law would have to be applied fairly then.What difference if you have a RugerMSR bolt action in a or a straight pull Southern Ord AR lookalike?This is the same kind of BS the Aussies have to put up withThe Ruger MSR is illegal for import bercause it looks tactical,but a Browning pump action rifle with a 10 shot mag and folding stock is legal in certain states...Go figure..

INMVHO Trickey you are being too much of a nice guy about this.Your local AGS are not playing nice on this at all with you,and in the long run have really got,going by what you have told us here,SFA of a case and are trying to build one under false pretences.Iwould again suggest get William Egan or someone else onto this,who has a well founded grasp of the gun lawsonto this,We even have a legal eagle hereon Boards who shoots himself who might advise ,like yesterday!To find out what the Hell is going on on your behalf.They will just dick you about ,but will realise the joke is over when a legal letter is on their desk.There are ,as they say in court"markers there"[IE precedents in such cases]Its your call,but I think with the right legal eagle on this you should have those 2 guns back by Xmas.

Tricky1127

Update
Phone call to discuss them to the Super Intendant who granted licences for said rifles said that once he has a report that saying that Both of them are Restricted (Because the report says Military looking nothing else) he can't make a decision on licensing and the file has to go to the Chief Super Intendant and he would make the right decision + I should write in and explain why I want said rifles left hand doesn't seem to make the cut. Note to self make sure that Security level is of the for Restricted firearms code...!! Still no name is given to whom wrote the report reasonings for the "Military Looking"

tac foley

He's stalling.

Explanation?

Nope.

Apology?

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah etc.

Get in touch with the people recommended by Grizzly45 and do it now.

tac

Cass

You are beyond the discussion point. The Super's mind is made up. Contact a brief, now.

As for security. For two restricted firearms you're looking at monitored, full, house alarm, with gsm backup. Extra safe (possibly), and increased security for transport (again possibly).

gunny123

Go to a solictor and ask his advice, the whole manner in which they obtained your rifles is very unsatisfactory. If they suspected they were restricted, why not be upfront and say so, instead of the underhand way they did.

Sparks

Unfortunately it seems you're now past the point where a quiet solution is feasible. At this point I'd be contacting a solicitor.

And that's me saying that. And I hate the idea of going to court.

Grizzly 45

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Update
+ I should write in and explain why I want said rifles left hand doesn't seem to make the cut. Still no name is given to whom wrote the report reasonings for the "Military Looking"

Seeing that you are afflicted ,like me and most other MSR shooters in Ireland with a recogised disability by the UN World health organisation that afflicts something like 12% of the worlds pouplation and in certain countries is an active reason for religious and civil persecution and discrimination....[Anyone here remember getting clatterd by the "Christian" brothers or the Sisters for writing with your left hand???]...You have very good reason to use a left hand straight pull rifle........Just saying...Might be quitte handy to mention this fact Or better still write in saying the reasons I want these rifles are the exact same eason I wanted them in my initial application X months or years ago. My situation has not changed in any way.
Of course they wont give you this oafs name, but they will have to give it to your solicitor.
That will be even more embarrassing for AGS as obviously they are going against their own rules and using lower rank staff to fill a position that should be filled by a DI.The joys of a system that employes people on rank instead of being allowed to hire qualified and competant personel.

Tricky1127

Oh My God that's exactly what happened...! St.Marys school a teacher who was a brother made me change hands after my first two years at school and it was a terrible time I had the copy books from that year in school and as we had copy from the black board I did it in mirror so that if you held it up to a mirror you could read it.
Anyway if am using tools or working on something else am a Left hander and my left eye feel better and natural gas how you remember those days