GARDAI SEIZED RIFLES (September 06) new licence from Dec

Tackleberry.

Sparks wrote: »

Yes, it's tangled up in the definitions of what an assault rifle is in the restricted firearms SI. "Assault rifles" (again, the meaning from the Act, not real life) are restricted, and their definition includes the term "that resemble such" :



So if someone thinks looks enough like a rifle that's capable of functioning as a semi-auto or fully-auto firearm, it can be treated as if it was one.

So far as I know, this ridiculous piece of crap calling itself a law has never been tested in court. There's no indication of who gets to make the call, what the judgement must be made on, how much knowledge the person making the call has to have, what happens if two people disagree about the judgement call, or any of the thousand other problems that come up when you try to implement this.

Wouldn't that put the new Ruger Precision in this category, thinking of buying one, now I'm not so sure. Bloody hell.

tac foley

Indeed it would, making it the world's very first bolt-action 'assault rifle'.

tac

gunny123

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Wouldn't that put the new Ruger Precision in this category, thinking of buying one, now I'm not so sure. Bloody hell.

I had my eye on those rugers too, having seen and read a few reviews of them, they are great value for money. But in trickys case i think its the action type the coppers have a problem with, and will use any excuse to remove them from him.

Heckler

Apologies for asking if I'm in the wrong thread but I saw the OP mentioned Straight Pull rifles.

Can someone tell me what that is ? All I can find is straight pull vs turn bolt rifles but no explanation.

If I had to guess I would imagine a turn bolt is where you pull back and turn the bolt to the side whereas maybe a straight pull is like a ruger 10/22 where you pull and release the bolt back in one move ??

Chiparus

Regular Bolt actions the bolt has tone "turned" up before being pulled back and then when the bolt is pushed forward it has to be turned down to lock the bolt in place by engaging the lugs, a straight pull uses a different type of locking so the bolt does not need to be turned and allows for a smoother , faster action.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceYnI4DsXYQ

I presume thes is the type of rifle the OP says were removed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LE4FigimH9g

Tackleberry.

Heckler wrote: »

Apologies for asking if I'm in the wrong thread but I saw the OP mentioned Straight Pull rifles.

Can someone tell me what that is ? All I can find is straight pull vs turn bolt rifles but no explanation.

If I had to guess I would imagine a turn bolt is where you pull back and turn the bolt to the side whereas maybe a straight pull is like a ruger 10/22 where you pull and release the bolt back in one move ??

Two rifles I know of straight off the bat are the Browning T-bolt .22 and the K31 7.5x55 Swiss these are both straight pull rifles the OPs rifle also is a straight pull but the action is different and has a bolt hold and lever release to action his bolt. Hope this helps all types can be seen on YouTube.
Search, K31, Browning T-bolt, Southern Gun Straight pull AR15

tac foley

MOST Southern Gun Company centre-fire straight-pulls are, in fact operated by smartly pulling back on the cocking handle to eject the empty case and letting it go under the force of the mainspring to pick up a new cartridge and chamber it.

So far, the only firearm they make that has the thumb lever breech block release is a 9mm carbine - see me here shooting it -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15yHuA69oAA

AFAIK, SGC has not made any rifle cartridge versions, although another company has made a lever-release version of the Czech VZ78 in .223Rem -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-oCbZ4njiE

From the recent posts, I would imagine that the sight of this in civilian hands in the RoI would result in catastrophic heart failure in certain quarters.

tac

tac foley

Heckler wrote: »

Apologies for asking if I'm in the wrong thread but I saw the OP mentioned Straight Pull rifles.

Can someone tell me what that is ? All I can find is straight pull vs turn bolt rifles but no explanation.

If I had to guess I would imagine a turn bolt is where you pull back and turn the bolt to the side whereas maybe a straight pull is like a ruger 10/22 where you pull and release the bolt back in one move ??

To operate a turn-bolt action, you first LIFT the bolt, and then pull it backwards. To reload, you then push it forward and turn it back in position to lock it in place - exactly like a gate bolt - hence the name.

You only pull back the breech block on a Ruger 10/22, or any semi-auto firearm, to actually cock it, and then release it so that it travels forward under pressure of the recoil spring, picking up a round and chambering it. Every squeeze of the trigger makes this happen again, until you run out of ammunition and the breech block is held open [or no - depending on the brand/type of firearm].

tac

Grizzly 45

tac foley wrote: »

MOST Southern Gun Company centre-fire straight-pulls are, in fact operated by smartly pulling back on the cocking handle to eject the empty case and letting it go under the force of the mainspring to pick up a new cartridge and chamber it.

So far, the only firearm they make that has the thumb lever breech block release is a 9mm carbine - see me here shooting it -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15yHuA69oAA

AFAIK, SGC has not made any rifle cartridge versions, although another company has made a lever-release version of the Czech VZ78 in .223Rem -
tac

SGC has moved on in that they are now making them in 223 and 308 and are now known as a MARS (manualy actuated release system).In fact the lever is now replaced by a 2 stage trigger system as in the Caledonian Arms CZ design you mentioned.Even Robinson arms are making a copy of their excellent semi auto rifle in lever release.They ALL comply with the UK ban on semi autos so they would be 100% legal here as well as they are not semi auto in any shape or form.

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

Tackleberry. wrote: »

Wouldn't that put the new Ruger Precision in this category, thinking of buying one, now I'm not so sure. Bloody hell.

I had my eye on those rugers too, having seen and read a few reviews of them, they are great value for money. But in trickys case i think its the action type the coppers have a problem with, and will use any excuse to remove them from him.

See my point about the Aussies having this exact trouble with this exact rifle because of the exact same reason.No they have a problem with the looks of Trickys rifles.So if this was to be applied fairly in law the Ruger precision eifle and any other rifle with say an accruacy international chasis would be at risk.Even Sparks would be affected as his Anschutz air rifle has a pistol grip and a weird stock.As would the new Mausers Blasers and Sauer hunting rifles.
Simple fact this was trashed out in the 2008 act because of this very reason that pistol gripped rifles are a norm these days.
So now we have a weird looking bolt action rifle that is being judged on looks as an assault rifle or "military looking"(Whatever the Hell that means!) by AGS.
This is why this looks like so there fore the "Idontlikedelookodatnow" clause applies is such horribly bad guidance in the guidelines and gets thrown regularly as it it contradicts itself to the reality on the ground.

gunny123

There may be a bump in the road with licencing the mars system rifles in the uk. Some of the uk police forces are telling people not to buy them. The national ballistics intelligence service is lobbying the uk government behind the scenes to have them banned.

tac foley

Thanks for the update, Grizzly45, I'm not very up with these types of firearm, being more of a wood and steel man myself.

tac

Grizzly 45

gunny123 wrote: »

There may be a bump in the road with licencing the mars system rifles in the uk. Some of the uk police forces are telling people not to buy them. The national ballistics intelligence service is lobbying the uk government behind the scenes to have them banned.

Yeah,because they were out flanked and this type of gun is legally designed with the UK legislation in mind. But they have no leg to stand on,so they are as you said trying the old boys club route. Or hoping that the EU does the dirty work for them.Over here,,it will be intresting as there is nowt in the firearms act to cover this either.

LATER found this on shooters UK ...It seems to be a BS behind the scenes with a bit of "bloke down in the pub said so" added in on the lever release system.The comments are half l from Fudds and Yardley types..Quite funny and sad too that some people STILL dont realise we are all in the same boat.These things arent that cheap either,so I doubt aGS/DOJ,if reading here need be worried by a flood of these guns arriving on our shores anytime soon either.
ttps://ukshootingnews.wordpress.com/2016/06/09/police-force-is-warning-shooters-not-to-buy-mars-actions/

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

Thanks for the update, Grizzly45, I'm not very up with these types of firearm, being more of a wood and steel man myself.

tac

Suffolk rifles were doing straight pull garands and m14's, but i hear they closed up shop recently.

Grizzly 45

Seems to be true about Sufflock rifles.
Picked up this post from Army Rumour Service [ARRSE.co.uk] on what happened.Cant confirm or deny.


From what I've heard, Neil hasn't done anything wrong, it's all a sort of wrong place, wrong time sort of thing. He sent a couple SA80s for proofing, as far as he knew they were legit, had all the certificates for them. The Proof house did some digging on the them and found stolen parts in them, technically Section 5 because they were off an MOD gun. The MP came round followed by the normal police to check all this out. A few days previously someone had surrendered a couple of pistols to SRC, even though they're not a section 5 dealer they can still take sec 5 stuff if it's being surrendered. Neil didn't have time to phone the police to come and collect them before they came knocking about the SA80s, they did a full inventory check and Neil had to show them the pistols. Next thing you know they've suspended his license and all his stuff is being stored at Rifle-craft"

tac foley

Simple question - Does the firearm in question self-load with every single squeeze of the trigger?

Simple answer - No, it does not.

In that case, it is entirely legal in the UK, and conforms in every respect to the specification of a Section 1 [Rifled] Firearm.

tac

Cass

God, if only it were that simple here.

None of this "well it kinda looks like, it could be, in the right light, very much like something else" crap. As was said so many times here and in other threads it either is or is not.

Problem is the law we have is what we have and it says if it looks like it.

tac foley

Cass, I can tell you, strictly between us, y'unnerstan', that the situation over on your side over the water is the cause of a lot of head-shaking and 'I don't bleeve it' from fellow shooters hereabouts.

Just when there seems to be something that makes some sense - an Irish shooter getting his license in a few days from an efficient and knowledgeable 'super' - along comes a pile of s***e like this to destroy any faith in the system, as well as the necessary two-way goodwill and simple respect that goes along with it.

tac

Cass

tac foley wrote: »

Cass, I can tell you, strictly between us, y'unnerstan', that the situation over on your side over the water is the cause of a lot of head-shaking and 'I don't bleeve it' from fellow shooters hereabouts.

I've attended a few internationals and all shooters from other countries are astounded shooting is still a sport here. They all agree on gun control, well most, but they cannot believe what we have to put up with.

My "favorite" one is this. A crossbow is a restricted firearm. that in itself is "funny", but the best part is this. Unlike firearms that have a muzzle energy limit (anything under 1 joule is not a firearm) crossbows have no such limit on the draw strength/energy of the string. So, and this is very technically speaking, the kids toys you find in the shops (usually pound shops) could legally speaking be a restricted firearm.

Imagine trying to ask the Chief Super for a license for one of these:

tac foley

Sigh.

tac

gunny123

I was reading on a british shooting website that there are hundreds of no.8 .22lr single shot cadet rifles (a bit like a miniature lee enfield) in storage in the uk that the government are determined to chop up for scrap.

There are plenty of shooters that wish to buy them, but the uk government says it doesn't want to see firearms ownership "proliferate". So are things any better in the uk really ?

gunny123

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Seems to be true about Sufflock rifles.
Picked up this post from Army Rumour Service [ARRSE.co.uk] on what happened.Cant confirm or deny.


From what I've heard, Neil hasn't done anything wrong, it's all a sort of wrong place, wrong time sort of thing. He sent a couple SA80s for proofing, as far as he knew they were legit, had all the certificates for them. The Proof house did some digging on the them and found stolen parts in them, technically Section 5 because they were off an MOD gun. The MP came round followed by the normal police to check all this out. A few days previously someone had surrendered a couple of pistols to SRC, even though they're not a section 5 dealer they can still take sec 5 stuff if it's being surrendered. Neil didn't have time to phone the police to come and collect them before they came knocking about the SA80s, they did a full inventory check and Neil had to show them the pistols. Next thing you know they've suspended his license and all his stuff is being stored at Rifle-craft"

It smells like a set up to me. Why would the proof house decide to inspect internal parts of the firing mechanism ? How could they tell they were stolen anyway ?
As for the pistols, it would be a really easy way to set up a dealer for a fall, drop in two old rusted up clunkers when he was busy, and if he doesn't get around to calling the police, they have him.

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

I was reading on a british shooting website that there are hundreds of no.8 .22lr single shot cadet rifles (a bit like a miniature lee enfield) in storage in the uk that the government are determined to chop up for scrap.

There are plenty of shooters that wish to buy them, but the uk government says it doesn't want to see firearms ownership "proliferate". So are things any better in the uk really ?

I have to admit that I've not heard any of that kind of shenanigins, given that the gubmint actively supports shooting sports in this country with that most precious of support - hard cash. In our case, a £150K to rebuild our entire shooting facilities virtually from scratch. In the speech given by our local MP [whose son is a club member] as he opened it up, he proclaimed that Sporting England [a gubmint organisation] took great pride in providing this generous funding. (As a club, we provided the other half.)

However, bearing mind that politicians of any hue are like weather cocks, and lie with practiced ease, he may have been carried away by the promise of our fine tea and home-made scones with lashings of jam and cream.

Anyhow, that is here in yUK, and our main subject of discourse on this thread is the appalling manner in which a legal gun-owner appears to have been s*at on from a great height by the representatives of the PTB acting like a bunch of ignorant yahoos, who appear to have not only treated him like a common criminal, but to have ignored his rights in law.

Apologies for thread-drifting again.

tac, trying hard to keep to the subject.

Tricky1127

The Pistol grip fuss was about the Walter G22 coming in so fast and all other rifles that had a mag in the grip and before we knew it the Bull Pump was thrown under the bus as well as for the piston grip on the shotguns the manufacturers of said style called them "Tactical Stocks" just words put it was the nail in it coffin. My Southern Gun Company rifles. 260 Rem is the older style that Bob built using parts form lots of other manufacturers a good fella to chat with about kit rifles or hand made for your requirements he is very old school he has learned his trade and has left a great mark on the shooting community in the UK (he knows what's what not a Utube or Wikipedia firearms trained expert) if you are at the gun shows and he isnt busy he would have time to chat he doesn't care who you are it's his passion and he won't be selling you one of his. I've gotten to play with some mad stuff that he had made from .22LR, .380, 9mm para, .45APC on the AR platform great fun on the ranges but can't see a use for them outside of the range Bob isn't the cheapest but he is the best in the game of Kit rifles

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

Anyhow, that is here in yUK, and our main subject of discourse on this thread is the appalling manner in which a legal gun-owner appears to have been s*at on from a great height by the representatives of the PTB acting like a bunch of ignorant yahoos, who appear to have not only treated him like a common criminal, but to have ignored his rights in law.

tac, trying hard to keep to the subject.

Its par for the course over here if you are a shooter Tac, not by all, but by a certain amount of mainly older coppers. They don't mind telling you bare faced lies, insulting you, not complying with the law of the land (a minor thing that gets in the way and not to be bothered with too much), ignoring the decisions of higher ranks if it suits them (got a trade union now don't ya know, can threaten strikes if they don't get their way. The fact its illegal to strike is a minor detail). In fact behaviour that would simply not be tolerated by most first world countries.

tac foley

gunny123 wrote: »

It smells like a set up to me. Why would the proof house decide to inspect internal parts of the firing mechanism ? How could they tell they were stolen anyway ?
As for the pistols, it would be a really easy way to set up a dealer for a fall, drop in two old rusted up clunkers when he was busy, and if he doesn't get around to calling the police, they have him.

I'm WAG-ing here, so I could be wrong, but the only SA80 rifles to come onto the civilian market here in have been the Cadet version of this appalling piece of junk, with iron sights, and this MAY be what Suffolk Gun may have been offering for proof after conversion to straight-pull configuration. The SUSAT sights can be bought on a number of sites in UK if you just had to have an SA80 that looked like the real deal. I can think, offhand, of about twenty similar-looking optics with better performance for a lot less money.

However, bear in mind that even THIS thing is NOT compliant with the base rules, which state that any Section 1 [Rifled] Firearm of the UK-compliant straight-pull configuration must have been manufactured without ANY gas-operating components of any kind. Perhaps THIS is what the Proof House found? Knowing how things work over here, this may have been something as innocent as a spring or pin. There is no way on earth that it is possible to determine whether or not an item has been stolen unless it is serial-numbered or simply unique. What is the likelihood that Mr Suffolk Guns submitted the guns for proof- a legal requirement here in UK - knowing that they contained parts that may or may not have been obtained nefariously? His entire reputation and livelihood depends on doing things correctly and in 100% compliance with UK law.

However, summing it all of the present mess, it would seem that although the seized guns MAY be MECHANICALLY compliant with your firearms' laws in every way, something that is a physical fact, the mess we are in here seems to based on OPINION, something that has NO standing in UK law, but obviously matters in Ireland.

Example from Lawyers Notes 101 -

Example A: - I can stand up in a UK court and state under oath that Mr A is a tri-sexual necrophiliac.

However, unless that is proven fact, I am slandering him, a criminal offence in UK law.

Example B: - I can stand up in court and state, still under oath, that it is my belief, my opinion, that Mr A is a tri-sexual necrophiliac.

THAT is something I am allowed to do, since the law can govern my actions, but not [yet] my mind.

Your police officers appear to be of the opinion that the seized firearms 'look illegal', and that would last - in a UK court - as long as it took the judge to tell them to b*gger off.

There is, as most of us here know, a definite difference between FACT and OPINION.

I also note that the OP, having been in some form of contact with the officer in question, who, far from offering any kind of explanation, has totally sidelined the issue by simply ignoring it. As pointed out earlier - ALL of that is illegal under your laws.

tac

gunny123

Any updates or developments ?

Tricky1127

No updates just yet I was away from the house at the NEC in Birmingham for a few days will see what's in the post Monday.

Tricky1127

One thing I was promised a receipt last week can they not even bother with giving me one....?

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

One thing I was promised a receipt last week can they not even bother with giving me one....?

I have heard of confiscated firearms being misplaced................

If they wanted to now they could deny ever having the rifles, you should have stood your ground and DEMANDED a receipt, i did when my glock was taken. No fookin' way was it leaving the house without me having a receipt. I would ring the solicitor in the morning and get him onto it and get him to get a receipt from the super.