President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

PopePalpatine

"B-b-but HillaREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" :rolleyes:

johnny_tractor

PopePalpatine wrote: »

"B-b-but HillaREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" :rolleyes:

grow up

PopePalpatine

johnny_tractor wrote: »

grow up

I'm not the one trying to deflect from Trump's failings with doomsday scenarios. As Trump supporters were all too keen to say in the wake of the protests against him, "he's the President so suck it up."

ancapailldorcha

johnny_tractor wrote: »

if hillary had have managed to cheat the election the usa would be at war with russia now,
don't forget

PopePalpatine wrote: »

"B-b-but HillaREEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" :rolleyes:

johnny_tractor wrote: »

grow up

PopePalpatine wrote: »

I'm not the one trying to deflect from Trump's failings with doomsday scenarios. As Trump supporters were all too keen to say in the wake of the protests against him, "he's the President so suck it up."

Both of you know that this sort of pettiness and sniping is unwelcome here. Next time, you'll get a ban.

recedite

Billy86 wrote: »

On three of the nine polls, which by any definition, is a minority. Not a majority.

Its a very select group of only 9 polls.
The graph does not show Time. Early polls are treated the same as later ones.
It is designed to show a correlation between Trump support and "travel ban" support, which it does, and which is what we would expect anyway.

The graph does not include the poll I linked to. or the Monmouth one mentioned in the text.

A graph in that format is more suited to a census, ie you ask 50 people or 50 individual states the same two questions, at the same time, and then plot the results. If the majority of points plotted were in the top RHS it would be good for Trump overall.

recedite

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear...

Tell me one mainstream media source which is writing favourable things about Trump at the moment?

What does that tell you? Trump is right when he says the "old" media are against him, but the people are with him. Don't forget these same media and their polls confidently predicted that Trump would lose to Clinton.

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Washington Post at least are one of the best news sources around and their investigations just proved that Flynn broke the law and that Trump and his team knew about it weeks ago. That's not at all biased, that is facts.

The whole Flynn debacle is over rated anyway. Talking to the Russian ambassador was not the problem, it was the timing. If he had talked to them after his appointment it would have been fine.
We' probably see the same kind of thing happen with Brexit over the next year or two. Some goon in Brussels will wave a piece of paper proving that the Brits have been seen negotiating a trade deal with some other country, and that will be deemed "highly illegal" under EU law. But if they wait a little while, its fine to do it.
People who actually like to get things done don't like sitting around waiting for the start gun, even though strictly speaking they should.

RobertKK

The Flynn/Russian scandal is a bit like a snowball going down a hill. The only question about the snowball at the top of the hill is - is the hill in the Netherlands or is it a high mountain in the Alps.

The White House are blaming the people leaking the information saying it is illegal leaks, and leaks are the real issue, but so is the truth behind the leaks, and when something is leaked, it is like Pandora's box, it is out there and that is then the real issue.

RobertKK

Gun sellers on CNN blaming Hillary for losing the election for poor gun sales.

Peregrinus

recedite wrote: »

What does that tell you? Trump is right when he says the "old" media are against him, but the people are with him.

No, it doesn't tell us either of those things. If a politician gets a lot of bad press, it can be either (a) because the media are biased against him, or (b) because he's doing bad stuff, and the media are objectively reporting on that.

And, whichever view you take, it tells us nothing about whether "the people are with him".

If you want a quick-and-dirty on whether people are with him or not, you need to look at approval ratings. And, for that, you can either pick the poll that gives the result you want and ignore the others, or you can look at an aggregator site, which surveys a variety of polls and gives a moving average.

That particular aggregator site shows Trump's popularity improving steadily steadily from election day until about mid-December when it peaks and then plateaus until about New Year's Day, since when the trend has been mildly downwards. At no time, however, has Trump's approval rating been positive; he has always had a net "unfavourable" rating, which is pretty much unprecedented for a president at the start of his term.

johnny_tractor

recedite wrote: »

What does that tell you? Trump is right when he says the "old" media are against him, but the people are with him. Don't forget these same media and their polls confidently predicted that Trump would lose to Clinton.

The whole Flynn debacle is over rated anyway. Talking to the Russian ambassador was not the problem, it was the timing. If he had talked to them after his appointment it would have been fine.
We' probably see the same kind of thing happen with Brexit over the next year or two. Some goon in Brussels will wave a piece of paper proving that the Brits have been seen negotiating a trade deal with some other country, and that will be deemed "highly illegal" under EU law. But if they wait a little while, its fine to do it.
People who actually like to get things done don't like sitting around waiting for the start gun, even though strictly speaking they should.

hillary and obama did everything they could to push a war between usa and russia,

flynn put his neck on the line to annul obamas vindictiveness,

Chips Lovell

Off-topic post deleted. The subject of this thread is President Trump and US government policy. Let's not turn it into another discussion of refugees and immigration in Europe.

Thank you

Kermit.de.frog

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

Trump should be very concerned about "anonymous" Intel sources leaking non stop to the media.

Yeah, that's maybe what you get when you demean and undermine the intelligence community in public. Be ironic if in the end it's the intelligence community that brings him down.

sondagefaux

This is what Republican Senator John McCain has to say about Trump's relationship with Putin:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/02/13/trump-gets-it-wrong-on-putin-russia-moral-equals-john-mccain-column/97822770/

This is his reaction to the latest revelations about the depth of contacts between Trump's administration and Russia:

On Tuesday morning, McCain, R-Ariz., issued a written statement thanking Flynn for "his many years of distinguished service to our country, especially his invaluable contributions in the fight against terrorism" but also sounded an alarm.

“At the same time, General Flynn’s resignation is a troubling indication of the dysfunction of the current national security apparatus," McCain said. "As our nation confronts the most complex and diverse array of global challenges since the end of World War II, it is imperative that the President select a new national security adviser who is empowered by clear lines of authority and responsibility and possesses the skills and experience necessary to organize the national security system across our government."

McCain, a longtime critic of Russian President Vladimir Putin, called on Trump to clarify U.S. policy toward Russia:

“General Flynn’s resignation also raises further questions about the Trump administration’s intentions toward Vladimir Putin’s Russia, including statements by the President suggesting moral equivalence between the United States and Russia despite its invasion of Ukraine, annexation of Crimea, threats to our NATO allies, and attempted interference in American elections. American policy toward Russia must be made clear and unequivocal: we will honor our commitments to our NATO allies, we will maintain and enhance our deterrent posture in Europe, we will hold Russian violators of human rights accountable for their actions, and we will maintain sanctions on Russia so long as it continues to violate the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine."

http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/azdc/2017/02/14/sen-john-mccain-michael-flynn-resignation-highlights-dysfunction-trump/97888784/

I suspect that most Senators and Representatives share his views and that they will combine to prevent Trump from implementing his preferred policies towards Russia.

Overall, Trump's foreign policy, including his trade policy, is likely to be severely constrained, in some cases blocked, by Congress.

Usually a President gets much more leeway in their foreign policy compared to their domestic policies.

With Trump, the opposite is likely to be the case as most Republicans share his socially conservative agenda (or Bannon's socially conservative agenda) but enough Republicans are opposed to significant elements of his foreign policy, especially towards Russia, to allow them combine with Democrats to either severely hamper elements of his foreign policy or to block them.

If the Russians and Trump had been a bit more discreet, they may have been able to implement their joint agenda quietly.

However, they have ultimately used very crude methods to try to implement their joint agenda and it is now much more likely to be blocked than to succeed.

I'm pretty sure that this ("we will honor our commitments to our NATO allies, we will maintain and enhance our deterrent posture in Europe, we will hold Russian violators of human rights accountable for their actions, and we will maintain sanctions on Russia so long as it continues to violate the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine") will be the US policy towards Russia no matter what Trump and his Russian allies hope for.

MightyMandarin

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html

Trump aides were in regular contact with the Russians throughout the campaign, according to the NYT.

It looks like Intelligence are going to keep leaking information until Congress investigates it properly.

Also from the article:

As part of the inquiry, the F.B.I. is also trying to assess the credibility of information contained in a dossier that was given to the bureau last year by a former British intelligence operative. The dossier contained a raft of salacious allegations about connections between Mr. Trump, his associates and the Russian government. It also included unsubstantiated claims that the Russians had embarrassing videos that could be used to blackmail Mr. Trump.

The F.B.I. has spent several months investigating the leads in the dossier, but has yet to confirm any of its most explosive allegations.

Senior F.B.I. officials believe that the former British intelligence officer who compiled the dossier, Christopher Steele, has a credible track record, and he briefed F.B.I. investigators last year about how he obtained the information. One American law enforcement official said that F.B.I. agents had made contact with some of Mr. Steele’s sources.

This trainwreck presidency looks to be declining by the hour.

MightyMandarin

recedite wrote: »

What does that tell you? Trump is right when he says the "old" media are against him, but the people are with him. Don't forget these same media and their polls confidently predicted that Trump would lose to Clinton.

So who can be trusted then? Breitbart?

The whole Flynn debacle is over rated anyway. Talking to the Russian ambassador was not the problem, it was the timing. If he had talked to them after his appointment it would have been fine.

Actually that's not why he was fired/resigned. The WP reported last night that Sally Yates and the DOJ told the WH about Flynn's involvement with Russia and they ignored it and proceeded to lie for weeks afterwards. Flynn resigned within an hour.

You may want to do a little bit of research before passing further comment.

Akrasia

johnny_tractor wrote: »

hillary and obama did everything they could to push a war between usa and russia,

flynn put his neck on the line to annul obamas vindictiveness,

This is utter nonsense.
How do you expect people to take you seriously when you post rubbish like this?

If Obama wanted a war with Russia, he had an excellent opportunity when they invaded Ukraine. It was the perfect pretext for a war, and Obama did everything he could to de-escalate the situation.

Panrich

Billy86 wrote: »

Trump won the EC system which is how presidents have been decided since more or less the foundation of the US if I am correct. But using the numbers of the votes barometer shows that, to put it exactly as you did, majority of US citizens actually oppose his stance on immigration, something that the majority of polls on the issue specifically backs up.

2 of 9 polls are positive on BOTH approval for Trump and support for the ban.

demfad

New TRump Trouble or even trouble for Trump:

From CNN

Trump aides were in constant touch with senior Russian officials during campaign

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/donald-trump-aides-russians-campaign/index.html

Trump said zero contact at the Trump tower press conference after the election.
Spicer saying same yesterday.

Bazzo

Nobody actually pays any attention to Rasmussed btw, it's not considered a credible poll by the press. Gallup, on the other hand, is considered to be one of the fairest polls around, and dates back to the 1930s. They've actually been accused of leaning sightly Republican in the past, they had Romney beating Obama in the presidential election in 2012.

Akrasia

Russia deployed a cruise missile system yesterday in violation of cold war treaties against holding ground based medium range missile systems

Trump released a statement following the N. Korean test launch, but has ignored the Russian deployment of a fully functioning cruise missile system in violation of the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces treaty (INF)

There are former soviet bloc countries who are getting very very nervous about the possibility that they might be attacked. Obama sent tanks and weapons to the Baltic states as one of his last acts as president to reinforce their borders and assure them of US Commitment to their defence. Putin is conducting battle readiness tests for the entire military to ensure that they're ready to engage at short notice.

NATO building up on the Russian border, Russia conducting banned missile launches, conducting massive military tests https://www.rt.com/news/357146-russia-snap-exercise-alert/
and revelations about collusion between Trump and Putin, He needs to release a statement to condemn the breach of the weapons treaty and to reassure NATO allies that America is there to protect them.

Panrich

Russia getting on with the business of deploying a cruise missile to test the new administration. Trump and his pronouncements on NATO may have emboldened the Russians to move.

http://time.com/4671418/trump-putin-russia-missile-nuclear-treaty/

Professor Moriarty

Akrasia wrote: »

Russia deployed a cruise missile system yesterday in violation of cold war treaties against holding ground based medium range missile systems

Trump released a statement following the N. Korean test launch, but has ignored the Russian deployment of a fully functioning cruise missile system in violation of the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces treaty (INF)

There are former soviet bloc countries who are getting very very nervous about the possibility that they might be attacked. Obama sent tanks and weapons to the Baltic states as one of his last acts as president to reinforce their borders and assure them of US Commitment to their defence. Putin is conducting battle readiness tests for the entire military to ensure that they're ready to engage at short notice.

NATO building up on the Russian border, Russia conducting banned missile launches, conducting massive military tests https://www.rt.com/news/357146-russia-snap-exercise-alert/
and revelations about collusion between Trump and Putin, He needs to release a statement to condemn the breach of the weapons treaty and to reassure NATO allies that America is there to protect them.

Tweet:

I thought Vlad and I were BFFS. He's a bad dude. SAD! Buy stuff from Ivanka.

recedite

Akrasia wrote: »

Russia deployed a cruise missile system yesterday in violation of cold war treaties

I think Putin warned (way back in 2007) that the 1987 treaty restricting long range missiles in Europe was becoming irrelevant because...
a) US was putting short range missiles on long range drones
b) US was developing anti-missile or missile shield systems in new eastern European bases
c) China was not bound by the treaty

All of which was leaving Russia at a distinct disadvantage and upsetting the MAD balance, which the treaty was supposed to maintain.

demfad

Russia now warning Trump to keep 'campaign promises'.

Flynn may have lied to FBI about sanctions.

KellyAnne Conway takes Trump pic off her twitter feed....

Trump, Pence, Spicer all denied contact with Russian Intelligence agents which contradicts absolutely what the Intelligence agencies have said.

Trump multi twitter burst first claims new story is fake news, now saying Intel leaked illegally.

Just to repeat: One day after Flynn resignation Intel agencies leak new claims that Several of Trumps campaign team were in repeated contact with Russian Intelligence and Government officials.

This looks to be all out war between Intelligence agencies and Whitehouse. This is going to end in a trial for treason and Trump may well see out his days behind bars.

demfad wrote: »

New TRump Trouble or even trouble for Trump:

From CNN

Trump aides were in constant touch with senior Russian officials during campaign

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/donald-trump-aides-russians-campaign/index.html

Trump said zero contact at the Trump tower press conference after the election.
Spicer saying same yesterday.

wonderfullife

Anybody replying with "But Hillary" or "But Obama" needs to be reminded of the following:

1. Barack Obama is jet-skiing in the Bahamas with Richard Branson.

2. Hillary is laughing her head off somewhere unknown.

Neither of them are the President of this Clown Show. Donald Trump is.

One month in and not one iota of concrete policy on a) repeal/replace Obamacare b) tax reform c) Jobs creation d) Infrastructure plan.

Yet we do have a) Mounting evidence of mass-collusion with a foreign power b) deregulating the financial sector so they work their magic c) de-regulation of the oil industry d) removing anti-corruption laws e) Trump making a fortune by charging dignitaries to stay at Mar-a-Lago (violating Emoluments Clause) f) Epic daily incompetence and, of course, g) The fastest ever removal of the NSA chief h) A Muslim Ban that is apparently not a Muslim Ban yet constantly called a Muslim Ban.

Trump is in over his head.

He has to go and soon.

The consequences are far reaching and global the longer this buffoon stays in power. Pence is at least competent which should be a basic requirement to be President.

Itssoeasy

demfad wrote: »

Russia now warning Trump to keep 'campaign promises'.

Flynn may have lied to FBI about sanctions.

KellyAnne Conway takes Trump pic off her twitter feed....

Trump, Pence, Spicer all denied contact with Russian Intelligence agents which contradicts absolutely what the Intelligence agencies have said.

Trump multi twitter burst first claims new story is fake news, now saying Intel leaked illegally.

Just to repeat: One day after Flynn resignation Intel agencies leak new claims that Several of Trumps campaign team were in repeated contact with Russian Intelligence and Government officials.

This looks to be all out war between Intelligence agencies and Whitehouse. This is going to end in a trial for treason and Trump may well see out his days behind bars.

I'd have to ask who the hell was the legal counsel for trump during his campaign and transition ? He or she clearly hasn't done a good job making sure the members of the team were clear on what they could and couldn't do until January 20th at 12:01pm.

It seems trump has discorvered that you don't bad mouth the US intellefence community and not get burnt.

Also the "old" media don't have an agenda on trump. I include both the MSM and fox in this, it's clear they'd prefer not to covering the mess this administration is creating by themselves. I mean even fox with its bias towards trump are having a hard time holding the party line on trump.

InTheTrees

demfad wrote: »

This looks to be all out war between Intelligence agencies and Whitehouse.

And between the Intelligence agencies and the Republican congress, who are sitting on their hands watching this train wreck take place.

wonderfullife

i) Forgot to mention this doozy

https://twitter.com/AP/status/831898755809046529

To me that's mind-boggling. I'm no fan of guns in the hands of anybody but giving them to people with mental impairment? SMH.

He's going through his checklist of people to make a lot of money and/or please real quick:

1. Trump Organisation
2. Oil Industry
3. Wall Street
4. NRA
5. Russia

Itssoeasy

So trump is saying that gen Flynn is a good man, and has been treated very badly by the media.

It's a mutual appreciation society at this press conference so far. Trump even referred to the Israeli prime minister by his knickname twice.

eire4

wonderfullife wrote: »

Anybody replying with "But Hillary" or "But Obama" needs to be reminded of the following:

1. Barack Obama is jet-skiing in the Bahamas with Richard Branson.

2. Hillary is laughing her head off somewhere unknown.

Neither of them are the President of this Clown Show. Donald Trump is.

One month in and not one iota of concrete policy on a) repeal/replace Obamacare b) tax reform c) Jobs creation d) Infrastructure plan.

Yet we do have a) Mounting evidence of mass-collusion with a foreign power b) deregulating the financial sector so they work their magic c) de-regulation of the oil industry d) removing anti-corruption laws e) Trump making a fortune by charging dignitaries to stay at Mar-a-Lago (violating Emoluments Clause) f) Epic daily incompetence and, of course, g) The fastest ever removal of the NSA chief h) A Muslim Ban that is apparently not a Muslim Ban yet constantly called a Muslim Ban.

Trump is in over his head.

He has to go and soon.

The consequences are far reaching and global the longer this buffoon stays in power. Pence is at least competent which should be a basic requirement to be President.

I agree with a lot of what you say there however for sure not the last bit about Pence in the sense of be careful what you wish for because IMHO Pence would be even worse for America and the world then Trump.