President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

KingBrian2

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

In fairness, Trump has shown very little inclination to try and curry favour with the GOP's ultra-conservative Christians. Maybe he knows that they'll never vote Democrat, especially with Hilary as their candidate.

Two worlds apart. Hillary is the antichrist to them. Trump would just have to stand at a podium for 2- 4 hours insulting Hillary and get an applause out of them.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

Many Americans really underestimate just how many Mexicans don't like their home gvt. The statements coming from Trump's mouth have always been aimed at the Mexican gvt so if he is playing to the crowd which he is clearly doing, some of his message is also going out to those Mexicans who really dislike their gvt.

Ok. Moore to the point. He won more of the Latino vote than expected. I predicted that when he was polling near zero with Latinos and blacks. I thought it would be to do with bringing unskilled and manufacturing jobs to America. Maybe dislike of the Mexican government also helped.

ancapailldorcha wrote:

In fairness, Trump has shown very little inclination to try and curry favour with the GOP's ultra-conservative Christians. Maybe he knows that they'll never vote Democrat, especially with Hilary as their candidate.

He was always polling well with them. It was striking how little discussion of religions there was this time compared with the last 4 elections (that's as far as my memory goes).

If the Dems tried to win religious voters next time, tgen he would do whatever's necessary to win that demographic. To be fair, the conservative Christians probably fall into the less educated bracket to begin with so he spoke to them without mentioning gods

KingBrian2

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. Moore to the point. He won more of the Latino vote than expected. I predicted that when he was polling near zero with Latinos and blacks. I thought it would be to do with bringing unskilled and manufacturing jobs to America. Maybe dislike of the Mexican government also helped.

Yeah the American gvt does not murder students and have links to the Drug Cartels. Does not surprise me Latinos went with Trump.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

Yeah the American gvt does not murder students and have links to the Drug Cartels. Does not surprise me Latinos went with Trump.

Oh yeah I forgot about the Mexican students' mass grave.

Being a complete d1ck to everyone is a surprisingly effective strategy. You need the neck to pull it off though. Never explain, never be reasonable.

People will either think he's on their side or cower in fear if they realise he's not on your side, your on his side until he changes side.

KingBrian2

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Oh yeah I forgot about the Mexican students' mass grave.

Being a complete d1ck to everyone is a surprisingly effective strategy. You need the neck to pull it off though. Never explain, never be reasonable.

People will either think he's on their side or cower in fear if they realise he's not on your side, your on his side until he changes side.

Not exactly how I would put it but Trump knew what the voters wanted.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

Not exactly how I would put it but Trump knew what the voters wanted.

He really knows what they want him to say. It will be a new challenge to keep those voters, voting.

Actually it would be a challenge only if you care about consequences. He doesn't care about consequences outside of getting to reelected him in 2020. The fallout isn't his concern. He just needs to ratchet up the rhetoric and keep saying what his voters want to hear.

Those voters I mentioned earlier -tge ones who never had a President who speaks like them, will probably be very hard to lose. They'll no more turn their back on him than on a member of their own family. The independents who actually watch the news and will measure results against the promises will be more challenging.

Presidents who start wars always get reelected. Starting a war is only a problem if you believe in things like not starting wars. As I said before, I don't think trump is encumbered by beliefs. Anything is possible.

KingBrian2

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

He really knows what they want him to say. It will be a new challenge to keep those voters, voting.

Actually it would be a challenge only if you care about consequences. He doesn't care about consequences outside of getting to reelected him in 2020. The fallout isn't his concern. He just needs to ratchet up the rhetoric and keep saying what his voters want to hear.

Those voters I mentioned earlier -tge ones who never had a President who speaks like them, will probably be very hard to lose. They'll no more turn their back on him than on a member of their own family. The independents who actually watch the news and will measure results against the promises will be more challenging.

Presidents who start wars always get reelected. Starting a war is only a problem if you believe in things like not starting wars. As I said before, I don't think trump is encumbered by beliefs. Anything is possible.

Not sure what Trump really believes in what I can say is he is a Patriot. To be put through the insults and threats to his life and receive no monetary gain out of it which he has not. Trump neither won nor lost from this campaign. He was disowned by the Republicans very early on in the campaign and only through the primary process could he get himself through. His message of God, Guns & Gals resonated and he reached out to everyone in his own way. The people who were against him were never go to vote for him and saw the campaign as a running gag.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

Not sure what Trump really believes in what I can say is he is a Patriot.

I've no idea what you mean by patriot in this context. I've no idea how patriot could be applied to Trump. Patriots tend to believe in things don't they?

KingBrian2 wrote:

To be put through the insults and threats to his life and receive no monetary gain out of it which he has not. Trump neither won nor lost from this campaign. He was disowned by the Republicans very early on in the campaign and only through the primary process could he get himself through.

Why did you limit it to monetary gain?
He's loves power and now he's POTUS. I don't see him as a businessman as much as a person who gathers power. Now the presidency us part if his business empire.

Money gives the opportunity for power but money isn't the objective as such. Either way, the notion that he didn't gain from the election is completely wide of the mark.

He was never a republican. He's not a republican now in anything but name. Those things only matter to you and me. The doesn't care about things like that.

KingBrian2 wrote:

His message of God, Guns & Gals resonated and he reached out to everyone in his own way. The people who were against him were never go to vote for him and saw the campaign as a running gag.

Ha. He never even mentioned god and he certainly didn't campaign on it.

The thing he did best was convince people he believes whatever they believe.

KingBrian2

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I've no idea what you mean by patriot in this context. I've no idea how patriot could be applied to Trump. Patriots tend to believe in things don't they?



Why did you limit it to monetary gain?
He's loves power and now he's POTUS. I don't see him as a businessman as much as a person who gathers power. Now the presidency us part if his business empire.

Money gives the opportunity for power but money isn't the objective as such. Either way, the notion that he didn't gain from the election is completely wide of the mark.

He was never a republican. He's not a republican now in anything but name. Those things only matter to you and me. The doesn't care about things like that.



Ha. He never even mentioned god and he certainly didn't campaign on it.

The thing he did best was convince people he believes whatever they believe.

During the primaries he had to emphasize his religious credentials in order to appease the Evangelical base and unlike George Bush he felt distinctly uncomfortable in those sessions. He felt more at home talking trade deals like his opposition to NAFTA which benefitted the super-rich. He was also attacking the banks and their links to Hillary Clinton. Now that he is President he has to cut deals that are good for the country. Will he reach out to other major political parties that agreed with a lot of what he says.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

During the primaries he had to emphasize his religious credentials in order to appease the Evangelical base and unlike George Bush he felt distinctly uncomfortable in those sessions. He felt more at home talking trade deals like his opposition to NAFTA which benefitted the super-rich. He was also attacking the banks and their links to Hillary Clinton. Now that he is President he has to cut deals that are good for the country. Will he reach out to other major political parties that agreed with a lot of what he says.

When you called him a Patriot, were you referring to things you think he will do in the future or has he already done something patriotic, in your view?

Overheal

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Not sure what Trump really believes in what I can say is he is a Patriot.

How in the world do you figure that one? He's many things, like a draft dodger, a loophole artist, and a - China-business-doer-guy-something, and several other things, before he is a 'patriot'.

KingBrian2

Overheal wrote: »

How in the world do you figure that one? He's many things, like a draft dodger, a loophole artist, and a - China-business-doer-guy-something, and several other things, before he is a 'patriot'.

He also employs Americans and stands us for the country when it comes to perceived or real instances of anti-Americanism.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

He also employs Americans and stands us for the country when it comes to perceived or real instances of anti-Americanism.

Low bar for patriots. You might be anticipating things hell do inthe future. One of the really clever parts of his campaign was being vague enough about things that he convinced people he believes what they believe. He never wasted time trying to explain his ideas because once you do that, you open yourself up to follow up questions about the details. And the devil is in the details.

Instead he said things like make America great again. Everyone thinks of something different and they all think he's thinking what they're thinking. Clever.

Then you call him a Patriot and have to either credit him with the things you think/hope he'll do in the future as if he's already done them (make deals to benefit American as you said a few posts ago). Or you lower the bar laughably low (employing Americans and defending America from anti Americanism - whatever the hell that is.

In short, he's a con man. And he's very good at it, as your demonstrating.

BoatMad

His message of God, Guns & Gals

fantastic , trump campaign wrapped up in a twitter friendly message

Im less sure how either of that triumvirate , will get people back to work or make ether economy better or make the US a less divisive country.

or maybe its " God will give all guns to gals " , that might be start , men without guns might be an improvement

El_Duderino 09

I'm sticking by my assertion that Trump's popularity will confound people. In short I think he's going to be popular because he won't ask them to be better people. He will encourage people to give in to their base desires.

Lwavibg aside calling Mexicans rapists or treating Muslims as suspects with a muslim database, Climate change is a good example.

Climate change is a problem which will effect us all in the future. The ways to tackle the problem involve NOT simply burning more fossil fuels- which create jobs and a pleasant lifestyle for reasonably cheap. Instead we need to 'reduce, reuse and recycle', while paying more for energy and foregoing the jobs that would be continued through goal and oil production. Those people who lose jobs need to retrain and start at the bottom of the job ladder -unskilled jobs becoming automated so the pay is crap.

In short, nobody wants to tackle climate change. Obama was the first one to actually do much about the climate and it proved very unpopular. Climate change is a lofty goal and the coal miner who just lost his job due to restrictions placed on coal, is being asked to look at the bigger picture.

Pair that with the fact that you don't need to find an objective truth, you can pick your favourite 'truth' and Fox News will tell you you're right.

Trump won't ask anyone to look at the bigger picture. He'll tell them there's no reason not to drill for oil or mine coal. I think he'll offer a reason to give into desire to a lot of demographics and get will support him in return.

Trump will be an outrageously popular President.

KingBrian2

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Low bar for patriots. You might be anticipating things hell do inthe future. One of the really clever parts of his campaign was being vague enough about things that he convinced people he believes what they believe. He never wasted time trying to explain his ideas because once you do that, you open yourself up to follow up questions about the details. And the devil is in the details.

Instead he said things like make America great again. Everyone thinks of something different and they all think he's thinking what they're thinking. Clever.

Then you call him a Patriot and have to either credit him with the things you think/hope he'll do in the future as if he's already done them (make deals to benefit American as you said a few posts ago). Or you lower the bar laughably low (employing Americans and defending America from anti Americanism - whatever the hell that is.

In short, he's a con man. And he's very good at it, as your demonstrating.

Political opponents will call him a conman just like Hillary's enemies will call her a criminal that deserves serious jail time. Unlike her he had a message for the American people that millions could get behind. The disillusioned democrats voted Trump and he brought a lot of people back into the Republican party. 8 years ago they said the GOP was dead, lifeless. Trump has breathed new life into the party. It is up to him to use that political capital to change way Washington runs. As I have been saying for while on here a lot of disaffected Republicans cheered for Trump as he represents an America with their values.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

Political opponents will call him a conman just like Hillary's enemies will call her a criminal that deserves serious jail time. Unlike her he had a message for the American people that millions could get behind. The disillusioned democrats voted Trump and he brought a lot of people back into the Republican party. 8 years ago they said the GOP was dead, lifeless. Trump has breathed new life into the party. It is up to him to use that political capital to change way Washington runs.

He message was technically brilliant. He made himself all things to all men as exemplified by yourself calling him a patriot. Then when you actually thought about it, had to set a low bar for a patriot in order to make him qualify, including imagined future behaviour. It was a really clever campaign. Anyone who thinks he's an idiot is missing the game.

KingBrian2 wrote:

As I have been saying for while on here a lot of disaffected Republicans cheered for Trump as he represents an America with their values.

What are those values, in your view?

I would say nobody has a clue what his values are because he has been on a lot of sides of a lot of issues, so it's multiple choice. To paraphrase the Bible, You create trump in your own image, which gives a great sense of security to everyone who follows him.

There was a class piece on the news after the election. A reported asked a guy celebrating if he expected trump to build the wall and ban Muslims lock up Hillary etc. The guy laughed it off as election talk. Then he said he voted for trump because of his values. 'Which values?' The reporter asked. He guy said 'the values he talked about throughout the campaign'!

Classic double think. He knew the campaign was only campaign talk, but still felt he knew what trump's values are.

So what do you think Trump's values are and how do you know those are his values as opposed to things he just said out of expediency?

Zubeneschamali

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So what do you think Trump's values are and how do you know those are his values as opposed to things he just said out of expediency?

I think you can see Trump's values in how he has lived his life - he is a follower of the Golden Rule, one of Man's oldest philosophies: "The man with all the gold makes the rules."

El_Duderino 09

Zubeneschamali wrote:

I think you can see Trump's values in how he has lived his life - he is a follower of the Golden Rule, one of Man's oldest philosophies: "The man with all the gold makes the rules."

Well that's almost exactly what I think too. He doesn't have an altruistic bone in his body. Even his personal charity is about getting others to donate and taking credit.

But I'm curious to know what someone who likes him thinks his values are and how they come to know his values.

Dyr

Trump will do what hes done his whole life, feather his own nest.

KingBrian2

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Well that's almost exactly what I think too. He doesn't have an altruistic bone in his body. Even his personal charity is about getting others to donate and taking credit.

But I'm curious to know what someone who likes him thinks his values are and how they come to know his values.

Well for one he was against American troops being sent to warzone that will only cause more turmoil and most the Democrats have shown themselves to be out and out Russophobes. George Bush took a very hard line against Russia in his later years as President and since Obama came to office tensions have ratcheted up. You want to talk about American values then provoking a war with Russia is not a small deal. As for the Muslim issue, Trump would like to see the current Muslim population to be integrated into mainstream society and that is what is needed. Muslims seeing themselves as citizens of France, Britain or Ireland and not beholden to a Jihadi group.

El_Duderino 09

KingBrian2 wrote:

Well for one he was against American troops being sent to warzone that will only cause more turmoil and most the Democrats have shown themselves to be out and out Russophobes. George Bush took a very hard line against Russia in his later years as President and since Obama came to office tensions have ratcheted up. You want to talk about American values then provoking a war with Russia is not a small deal. As for the Muslim issue, Trump would like to see the current Muslim population to be integrated into mainstream society and that is what is needed. Muslims seeing themselves as citizens of France, Britain or Ireland and not beholden to a Jihadi group.

He's against American boots on the ground if it will only cause more turmoil.
Reading tensions with Russia.
He wants to see Muslims integrate.

How do you know those are his values?

AnGaelach

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Climate change is a problem which will effect us all in the future. The ways to tackle the problem involve NOT simply burning more fossil fuels- which create jobs and a pleasant lifestyle for reasonably cheap. Instead we need to 'reduce, reuse and recycle', while paying more for energy and foregoing the jobs that would be continued through goal and oil production. Those people who lose jobs need to retrain and start at the bottom of the job ladder -unskilled jobs becoming automated so the pay is crap.

That's not entirely true though. Trump is promising to deregulate US exports of oil and (most importantly for this topic) gas. By loosening restrictions on gas exports, US shale producers can break even at like $40-$45 a barrel. I would hazard a guess that both the EU and China will be major markets for it.

By bringing in cheap gas, people are less reliant on coal - you could go far beyond the climate change proposals by getting the Chinese to switch from coal to gas.

Instead of having to subsidise and prop up expensive industries like solar/wind, "less-dirty" fossil fuels will push coal and such out of the market (hopefully), reducing total emissions.

And not only that, but we'll probably see an economic boom in Europe since few European countries are major oil/gas producers - if gas is cheaper, people and businesses should be more productive.

El_Duderino 09

AnGaelach wrote:

That's not entirely true though. Trump is promising to deregulate US exports of oil and (most importantly for this topic) gas. By loosening restrictions on gas exports, US shale producers can break even at like $40-$45 a barrel. I would hazard a guess that both the EU and China will be major markets for it.

I don't know enough about the price or quantity of gas becoming available so I can't really comment. Sounds plausible. Are you saying there's enough gas to have an economic impact in europe? Oil was dirt cheap for the last year and it didn't hurt (near deflation aside) but it didn't exactly cause a boom either.

Jan_de_Bakker

So the current US govt seem convinced that a Russian hack is responsible for this election - the irony, they go on about "fake news" and this fake news story is the biggest one out there.

No evidence for this hack, just another cheap way to delegitimise his victory - since the recount failed.

Elmer Blooker

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

So the current US govt seem convinced that a Russian hack is responsible for this election - the irony, they go on about "fake news" and this fake news story is the biggest one out there.

No evidence for this hack, just another cheap way to delegitimise his victory - since the recount failed.

If there was genuine proven interference by Russia in the US election it would be an act of war. The Russian ambassador and all diplomats would be expelled from Washington, the US ambassador would be recalled from Moscow and all diplomatic links would be severed.
The world would be on the brink of nuclear war in a crisis comparable to the 1962 Cuba missile crisis. The UN would be sitting in all night emergency sessions in a desperate attempt to avert nuclear war. There would be panic buying, long queues at atms, people would be talking of nothing else just like they did in 1962 I'm sure ..... are we seeing any of this? Of course not and we're not going to thankfully.
Its all a plot to link Trump to Putin and send a clear message to him that foreign policy will remain the same.
" .... don't even think of getting close to Putin, we're in charge here buddy .."

El_Duderino 09

Jan_de_Bakker wrote:

No evidence for this hack, just another cheap way to delegitimise his victory - since the recount failed.

Well it's not true to say there no evidence for the hack. One of the top intelligence agencies (CIA) is making a fairly huge allegation. The FBI said there isn't enough evidence to say for sure that's fair enough. The FBI are essentially a police type organisation so they work to standards of evidence like 'beyond reasonable doubt' in court. The CIA are more of a military organisation so they don't need to work to the same standard of evidence and they can make inferences the FBI would be wrong to make.

I don't know what the truth of the matter is - and neither do you. To make a big pronouncement either way shows that you've picked your conclusion in advance of the evidence. If you watch fox news you'll probably think it's normal to pick your conclusion in advance, but it's actually not.

The fact that the agencies are talking about it means it should be taken seriously and we should await more information. That's what I'll do at least.

El_Duderino 09

Elmer Blooker wrote:

If there was genuine proven interference by Russia in the US election it would be an act of war. The Russian ambassador and all diplomats would be expelled from Washington, the US ambassador would be recalled from Moscow and all diplomatic links would be severed.

Well that's not true. Countries interfere with each other's elections all the time and they don't go to war over it. The fake news coming form Macedonia is a new type of interference so it's getting a lot of coverage because it was unexpected and was fairly effective.

The hacking is embarrassing the US and is a big win for whoever did it and a big loss for American democracy.

FreudianSlippers

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I'm sticking by my assertion that Trump's popularity will confound people. In short I think he's going to be popular because he won't ask them to be better people. He will encourage people to give in to their base desires.

Lwavibg aside calling Mexicans rapists or treating Muslims as suspects with a muslim database, Climate change is a good example.

Climate change is a problem which will effect us all in the future. The ways to tackle the problem involve NOT simply burning more fossil fuels- which create jobs and a pleasant lifestyle for reasonably cheap. Instead we need to 'reduce, reuse and recycle', while paying more for energy and foregoing the jobs that would be continued through goal and oil production. Those people who lose jobs need to retrain and start at the bottom of the job ladder -unskilled jobs becoming automated so the pay is crap.

In short, nobody wants to tackle climate change. Obama was the first one to actually do much about the climate and it proved very unpopular. Climate change is a lofty goal and the coal miner who just lost his job due to restrictions placed on coal, is being asked to look at the bigger picture.

Pair that with the fact that you don't need to find an objective truth, you can pick your favourite 'truth' and Fox News will tell you you're right.

Trump won't ask anyone to look at the bigger picture. He'll tell them there's no reason not to drill for oil or mine coal. I think he'll offer a reason to give into desire to a lot of demographics and get will support him in return.

Trump will be an outrageously popular President.

Energy independence is a huge military issue for the US; even bigger than a socio-political issue in reality.

What the US needs is a "Trump" that is actually going to get **** done... but good ****. US has massive solar and other natural resource potential. Coal is dead, and propping it up by lying about its impact on the environment is just stupid.

FreudianSlippers

AnGaelach wrote: »

That's not entirely true though. Trump is promising to deregulate US exports of oil and (most importantly for this topic) gas. By loosening restrictions on gas exports, US shale producers can break even at like $40-$45 a barrel. I would hazard a guess that both the EU and China will be major markets for it.

By bringing in cheap gas, people are less reliant on coal - you could go far beyond the climate change proposals by getting the Chinese to switch from coal to gas.

Instead of having to subsidise and prop up expensive industries like solar/wind, "less-dirty" fossil fuels will push coal and such out of the market (hopefully), reducing total emissions.

And not only that, but we'll probably see an economic boom in Europe since few European countries are major oil/gas producers - if gas is cheaper, people and businesses should be more productive.

Belief that the US can compete with OPEC nations is ridiculous.