President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

RobertKK

Anderson Cooper: "one of the best speeches Trump has ever given".

RobertKK

David Axelrod "if I am on the Trump team, I am very happy with this speech".

KingBrian2

I'd have more respect for the press if they did not go turncoat every time Trump puts on his charm. The media knew Trump used a particular style to get elected but kept with this he is a threat to national well being and world order but once elected and in power they act like he is great. Show some integrity instead of going from one extreme to the next.

Peregrinus

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I'd have more respect for the press if they did not go turncoat every time Trump puts on his charm. The media knew Trump used a particular style to get elected but kept with this he is a threat to national well being and world order but once elected and in power they act like he is great. Show some integrity instead of going from one extreme to the next.

You're obviously reading different media from me, Brian. For the most part, media outlets that presented him as a pimple on the arse of politics prior to the election still present him in that light, and the (rather fewer) outlets that looked upon him with a kindly eye still do so. And those which provided a more balanced analysis of his sayings and doings continue to do that.

If your reference is to Anderson Cooper et al praising this speech, do not confuse that with "going turncoat". Praise of the speech is not admiration for the man. The comments are carefully double-edged; if you think about it, "one of the best speeches Trump has ever given" could still be a pretty poor speech, and "if I'm on the Trump team, I'm happy with the speech" could just mean that in the speaker's opinion Trump's team have to be realistic about what they can expect from their boss in the rousing oratory department.

(For the record, I haven't watched the speech so I have no opinion as to whether it was good only by comparison with other Trump speeches, or good in absolute terms, or not good at all. In due course I'll read the speech.)

Zubeneschamali

ChikiChiki wrote: »

They talk about breaking the cycle of violence and cutting down the murder rate

That's code for locking up even more young black men.

Zubeneschamali

KingBrian2 wrote: »

The media knew Trump used a particular style to get elected but kept with this he is a threat to national well being and world order but once elected and in power they act like he is great.

This is the exact opposite of what actually happened.

Throughout the campaign, the press gave Trump massive uncritical coverage as a TV celebrity and pretended he was a real candidate.

Now, after it is too late, they are starting to point out that he is a serial liar, a narcissist and a complete bluffer.

Peregrinus

ChikiChiki wrote: »

They talk about breaking the cycle of violence and cutting down the murder rate . . .

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That's code for locking up even more young black men.

Not this time. Apparently it's code for locking up young immigrant men.

To quote the man himself:

"But to break the cycle of poverty, we must also break the cycle of violence.

The murder rate in 2015 experienced its largest single-year increase in nearly half a century.

In Chicago, more than 4,000 people were shot last year alone -- and the murder rate so far this year has been even higher.

This is not acceptable in our society.

Every American child should be able to grow up in a safe community, to attend a great school, and to have access to a high-paying job.

But to create this future, we must work with -- not against -- the men and women of law enforcement.

We must build bridges of cooperation and trust -- not drive the wedge of disunity and division.

Police and sheriffs are members of our community. They are friends and neighbors, they are mothers and fathers, sons and daughters - and they leave behind loved ones every day who worry whether or not they'll come home safe and sound.

We must support the incredible men and women of law enforcement.

And we must support the victims of crime.

I have ordered the Department of Homeland Security to create an office to serve American Victims. The office is called VOICE -- Victims Of Immigration Crime Engagement. We are providing a voice to those who have been ignored by our media, and silenced by special interests."

You'll note that, in his analysis of crime, the word "immigration" isn't mentioned until the final paragraph. At no point does he attempt to show any evidence, or even make any argument, that America's crime problem is the result of, or in any way connected with, immigration. You'd almost get the impression that he drags in immigration as an afterthought, because it allows him to make a nice acronym for his new agency, whose role and functions he does not specify, beyond indicating that it will only serve American victims of crime, while the name of the office suggests that it will only serve American victims of crime perpetrated by immigrants. Americans who are the victims of crimes committed by other Americans are on their own, apparently, as are visitors to the US, temporary resident and permanent residents who are the victims of crimes committed by anyone at all.

And, it's worth pointing out, although he starts by recognising the need to "break the cycle of violence", he says nothing at all about how he proposes to break that cycle. Obviously, locking up more people doesn't break the cycle of violence; it perpetuates it - that's what "cycle of violence" refers to. So if he wants to break the cycle he has to propose some different strategy. I don't think he realises that, though.

listermint

Voice... Voice!

An agency purely designed for people to report immigrants and no doubt will have vast powers and hit squads to round people up.

Next up , no hearings voice makes it's own visa determinations.

This has bannon all over it. These people are not to be trusted .

Christy42

listermint wrote: »

Voice... Voice!

An agency purely designed for people to report immigrants and no doubt will have vast powers and hit squads to round people up.

Next up , no hearings voice makes it's own visa determinations.

This has bannon all over it. These people are not to be trusted .

I don't think the Republican main stream will mind blaming immigrants for more of their problems.

UsedToWait

I awoke during the night to hear Trump taking about ensuring clean air and water for our children..

On second thoughts, knowing his actions on climate, I put it down to a fever dream..

Professor Moriarty

UsedToWait wrote:

I awoke during the night to hear Trump taking about ensuring clean air and water for our children..

UsedToWait wrote:

On second thoughts, knowing his actions on climate, I put it down to a fever dream..

Just yesterday, Trump signed an executive order rescinding the EPA's Clean Water Act.

PopePalpatine

Christy42 wrote: »

I don't think the Republican main stream will mind blaming immigrants for more of their problems.

I can already imagine it:
"Oh, is trickle-down-on-cocaine-cut-with-Cheeto-dust not working for you yet, Mr Blue Collar Worker? That's because of them illegals!"

Havockk

Peregrinus wrote: »

And, it's worth pointing out, although he starts by recognising the need to "break the cycle of violence", he says nothing at all about how he proposes to break that cycle. Obviously, locking up more people doesn't break the cycle of violence; it perpetuates it - that's what "cycle of violence" refers to. So if he wants to break the cycle he has to propose some different strategy. I don't think he realises that, though.

The majority of what he says appears to focus on backing up law enforcement. They are just the hammer to poverty and crimes nail. That's all they can ever really be, so he can lavish money on them all he likes and give them great backing, so much backing, all the backing etc. but that will do absolutely nothing to tackle the root cause of the very problem he's meant to be tackling.

Leroy42

Havockk wrote: »

The majority of what he says appears to focus on backing up law enforcement. They are just the hammer to poverty and crimes nail. That's all they can ever really be, so he can lavish money on them all he likes and give them great backing, so much backing, all the backing etc. but that will do absolutely nothing to tackle the root cause of the very problem he's meant to be tackling.

You are missing the fundamental motive of voters. Most people don't care about the underlying causes of crime, in fact I would argue that most people are tired of being told its society's fault.

People want more police on the streets, tougher sentences, tougher penalties (fines etc). More prisons. People are tired and fed up of the revolving door, the ease of bail, the list of 200 previous convictions etc.

And this plays into that. All that stuff about the core reason for crime etc is all well and good, and certainly that needs to be tackled, but that should be in the background as it simply does not attract votes.

It is this very thinking from the left that, IMO, is leading to the right making such inroads. People really just want the child molestor out of their neighbourhood. They want the drug dealer off the corner. They want the rapist sorted out. They don't really care why the person is the way they are, they want to feel safe.

mel1

Amen to that!

It is this very thinking from the left that, IMO, is leading to the right making such inroads. People really just want the child molestor out of their neighbourhood. They want the drug dealer off the corner. They want the rapist sorted out. They don't really care why the person is the way they are, they want to feel safe.[/QUOTE]

jobbridge4life

Leroy42 wrote: »

You are missing the fundamental motive of voters. Most people don't care about the underlying causes of crime, in fact I would argue that most people are tired of being told its society's fault.

People want more police on the streets, tougher sentences, tougher penalties (fines etc). More prisons. People are tired and fed up of the revolving door, the ease of bail, the list of 200 previous convictions etc.

And this plays into that. All that stuff about the core reason for crime etc is all well and good, and certainly that needs to be tackled, but that should be in the background as it simply does not attract votes.

It is this very thinking from the left that, IMO, is leading to the right making such inroads. People really just want the child molestor out of their neighbourhood. They want the drug dealer off the corner. They want the rapist sorted out. They don't really care why the person is the way they are, they want to feel safe.

I don't really accept that as a justification or explanation of Trump's popularity. The reality is that the United States is already a hyper-carceral state. Imprisoning a larger proportion of its population than any other. It already has extreme sentencing. It already has and has had for several decades politicians who engage in very heated rhetoric about crime and criminals. It routinely executes criminals and has many stringent restrictions for many offenders post imprisonment, including in some instances the loss of voting rights.

All of this while crime has been falling yet individuals regularly report being increasingly fearful of crime.

Nody

Leroy42 wrote: »

You are missing the fundamental motive of voters. Most people don't care about the underlying causes of crime, in fact I would argue that most people are tired of being told its society's fault.

No; what he's missing is that voters are stupid.

People want more police on the streets, tougher sentences, tougher penalties (fines etc). More prisons. People are tired and fed up of the revolving door, the ease of bail, the list of 200 previous convictions etc.

Except removing guns from the street by stricter gun control would have a whole lot more actual effect.

And this plays into that. All that stuff about the core reason for crime etc is all well and good, and certainly that needs to be tackled, but that should be in the background as it simply does not attract votes.

Because voters are stupid buying into BS stories and myths.

It is this very thinking from the left that, IMO, is leading to the right making such inroads. People really just want the child molestor out of their neighbourhood. They want the drug dealer off the corner. They want the rapist sorted out. They don't really care why the person is the way they are, they want to feel safe.

Because voters are stupid; they are in the most safe period but because they listen to fear mongers like Trump they are still afraid. They refuse to take the actions to drive that further such as strict gun control (oh noes, we need to protect ourselves!), rehabilitation (oh noes, they should be punished and then kicked out without any skills to the street), proper ****ing sentencing (no a white guy shoving something up the ass on a disabled person is not rape because it's not sexual enough or raping someone at a ivy league university is shameful enough so no need for sentencing the rich white guy to prison), making sure there's proper healthcare for people, that there's proper fresh food rather than soda to buy in schools, proper sex ed in school, making sure black male don't get sent to prison for minor stuff (removing fathers from children who are left with only drug lords to see as models etc.) etc.

All stuff that have proven to actually make a difference; because that does not fit with the world view they bought as true by BS sellers like Trump. So **** doing stuff that matters and let's go for more **** that will have no effect but sounds cool instead!

Leroy42

Sorry, you seem to think that that is my argument,

Its not. I was stating what, IMO, is what the voters want. You are putting in place logical arguments when it is irrational fear that is the driving force behind it. People in the US all want guns, despite all the evidence, it makes them feel safer.

I am not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the policy, just that Trump is right to focus on the law enforcement angle rather than talking about rehabilitation, second changes, back to work schemes etc. People see these are giving the criminals hand-outs.

A Little Pony

His speech is getting praise from many quarters it seems. Van Jones praised it highly which I am surprised by. Like I said, maybe he is now settling down.

Havockk

Leroy42 wrote: »

Sorry, you seem to think that that is my argument,

Its not. I was stating what, IMO, is what the voters want. You are putting in place logical arguments when it is irrational fear that is the driving force behind it. People in the US all want guns, despite all the evidence, it makes them feel safer.

I am not arguing about the rights and wrongs of the policy, just that Trump is right to focus on the law enforcement angle rather than talking about rehabilitation, second changes, back to work schemes etc. People see these are giving the criminals hand-outs.

Oh, I got it all right. Of course backing law enforcement has always been popular within elements of the US society.

The point is, things aren't going to get better, the harder the hammer falls the more the cracks will appear. Trump was elected because of the false promises to the lower income Americans, and he's not going to make their lives better. The middle class will continue to shrink, wages will fall, the economy is not going to suddenly get better. About the only thing this nonsense will do is turn the US into a bigger police state than it already is.

Mr.Micro

The Americans are afraid of everyone, each other, the immigrants, ISIS, Muslim people, but Daddy Trump and his Daddy Bannon, are going to protect them all. Promote fear and uncertainty, so long as everyone believes it's all going to be okay in the end. Like telling a child a scary story with a happy ending. Dream on.

demfad

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is this very thinking from the left that, IMO, is leading to the right making such inroads. People really just want the child molestor out of their neighbourhood. They want the drug dealer off the corner. They want the rapist sorted out. They don't really care why the person is the way they are, they want to feel safe.

I don't think the left needs to go with any populist policies at all.

Clinton won the popular vote by a mile and was beaten by a candidate who got help from a foreign hostile nation in order to win the electoral vote. She got the most votes of any white candidate of all time on the most progressive platform of all time.
The Voting Rights Act had been gutted by the GOP. Obama would have struggled to match Obama in 2008/2012 in swing States.
Democrats need more grassroots work and when they get in sort out the media, how elections are fought and look after the electorate and their children. Simple as that.

A Little Pony

More fool her for chasing the popular vote. Trump went for the electoral college in order to win. That is the difference. Trump is a winner.

demfad

Nody wrote: »

No; what he's missing is that voters are stupid.

.......
Because voters are stupid buying into BS stories and myths.

I think you're missing something here. In a several horse race Putin secured about 65% of the vote in 2012.

That is huge. The reason a man like Putin is so popular is because he controls the media. Russians know he is a dictator but they believe he brings stability. That isn't true but that is the truth that most of the people in Russia believe with available evidence.

In the US only 8% of democrats believe he is doing a good job where as 87% of Republicans do. Both sides engage with completely different media. Both sides have completely different 'truth'. The 87% side have been conditioned to not engage with or believe in MSM. Since the great recession MSM does not engage in much investigative journalism so they have made many mistakes which those on the right have exploited. They dont see any counter to their arguments. Their SM accounts are showing post after post, from authority figures backing their worldview, explaining why the left are conspirators etc. etc.
The left see MSM and see the right and think: ridiculous! stupid!

But they don't realise what they are seeing. In the 87% they are seeing and not understanding is what a population under an autocrats influence looks like, what the whole country will look like if Trump succeeds. They are seeing their own potential future.

Understanding that should rouse them into action. The misunderstanding causes them to be confused, offended (justifyably) and inactive.
They shouldnt shout stupid when they look at the right. They should shout. That will be me unless I do something!

There are misterms in 2018. Republican candidates need to understand that they are going down if they support Trump. They may as well go down doing right by their country.

weisses

A Little Pony wrote: »

His speech is getting praise from many quarters it seems. Van Jones praised it highly which I am surprised by. Like I said, maybe he is now settling down.

If you want a good analysis

Listen to the guy who should be president

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eK-5ivYb3o

Step by step sensible points and counter arguments

Mr.Micro

A Little Pony wrote: »

More fool her for chasing the popular vote. Trump went for the electoral college in order to win. That is the difference. Trump is a winner.

Trump is the winner. America is the loser.

demfad

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Trump is the winner. America is the loser.

You don't win if you cheat. You get impeached and if you have enlisted the help of foreign powers you get thrown in jail for treason.

Harika

A Little Pony wrote: »

More fool her for chasing the popular vote. Trump went for the electoral college in order to win. That is the difference. Trump is a winner.

After seeing him in action, that looks more and more like a happy accident. Because else there is no strategy else recognisable anywhere with him.

Leroy42

A Little Pony wrote: »

His speech is getting praise from many quarters it seems. Van Jones praised it highly which I am surprised by. Like I said, maybe he is now settling down.

The key phrase is 'his speech'. People are a bit amazed (since the bar is so low) that he actually managed to stay on message (another term for that is being able to read).

Like all speeches it was written by others, and whilst Trump would have had an input the tone, tempo and details would have been done by the drones.

Being able to give a good speech, as the GOP and the right have been so fond of saying for the last 8 years of Obama, means nothing. It is when he is saying what he actually thinks that the problems occur.

And don't get lost in the emotion of it. Look at what was said, and what he left out. As pointed out, great rhetoric about law enforcement but no details of how simply putting more money into an already massive system is going to help. Same with the military. Biggest spender in the world, in fact US spends more on defence than the other top 8 countries combined. But according to Trump it is a lack of investment!

And the wall. He conspicuously left out any mention of Mexico paying for it. Nothing, nada.

He continuously talks about the disaster that the US is, crime soaring, murder rates soaring, economy in tatters, unemployment rife, can't win a war, no good international deals, being taken for a ride by both NATO and UN. Totally open borders with terrorists streaming in, Mexican criminals abusing the god loving people of the US.

After listening to a few years of that, anybody would basically take it taht just being alive is a success!

Zubeneschamali

Harika wrote: »

After seeing him in action, that looks more and more like a happy accident.

I think he was planning to lose. I think he expected to lose. I don't think he will enjoy the next 4 years, and afterwards he will be the most hated man in America. He'll make Dubya look well loved, and for a narcissist like Trump, that is going to hurt.