President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

Peregrinus

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trumps says he was wire tapped , few days later wikileaks confirms that everyone is tapped. I think the two are linked, but no one in media is joining the dots.
Trump knew something before anyone else. He was obviously wire tapped as he puts it, that of course is an old school saying, but none the less he was clearly being monitored as he was a person of interest at the time of the election. Doesn't the info wikileaks put out today almost confirm that he would have been monitored. Trump has a phone, Obama knew the number, he was an easy target.

I think you’re putting two and two together and to make 22, to be honest. Wikileaks has not confirmed that “everyone is tapped”. What it has done is to give us some detail about the range and nature of electronic/digital surveillance techniques available to the CIA. But, seriously, did we not already know that the CIA has a wide range of electronic/digital surveillance techniques available to it?

Your argument is essentially this; because we now know more detail about the surveillance capacity of the CIA, this makes it more likely that Trump was wiretapped and that Obama was complicit in this.

Put that way, the argument is obviously nonsense. Nobody ever thought that Trump’s claims were improbable because the US intelligence agencies lacked the technical capacity to monitor him. Trump’s claims are regarded as improbable because they are completely unevidenced, Trump has given us no clue as to why he believes that Obama was instrumental in having his phone tapped and nobody - literally nobody - has emerged to back up Trump's claims, even anonymously. Even Trump's own press officers are unwilling to repeat his claims; they have left him twisting in the wind on this. Nothing in the Wikileaks disclosure changes that.

Igotadose

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Indeed. However, Trump dodged the draft. He wasn't a conscientious objector because, besides being a coward, he doesn't have a conscience.

He did say he avoided AIDS and other STD's. They were his "Personal Vietnam." And veterans supported this guy, yeesh: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/16/draft-dodger-trump-said-sleeping-around-was-my-personal-vietnam.html

Ali went to jail and gave up a couple years of his career for his conscientious objections. People's families were torn up when their sons fled to Canada.

Not Trump, though. Daddy's money and a pliant doctor took care of it.

I wonder if the Dr. in question was the father of his present 'eccentric' physician? Never any surgery or therapy for these debilitating heel spurs though. Interesting.

In "Trump/Russia news," here we have Corey "The Thug" Lewandowski approving a campaign operatives trip to Russia. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/carter-page-russia-trip-trump-corey-lewandowski-235784?utm_source=huffingtonpost.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange

frostyjacks

Igotadose wrote: »

He did say he avoided AIDS and other STD's. They were his "Personal Vietnam." And veterans supported this guy, yeesh: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/02/16/draft-dodger-trump-said-sleeping-around-was-my-personal-vietnam.html

Ali went to jail and gave up a couple years of his career for his conscientious objections. People's families were torn up when their sons fled to Canada.

Not Trump, though. Daddy's money and a pliant doctor took care of it.

I wonder if the Dr. in question was the father of his present 'eccentric' physician? Never any surgery or therapy for these debilitating heel spurs though. Interesting.

In "Trump/Russia news," here we have Corey "The Thug" Lewandowski approving a campaign operatives trip to Russia. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/carter-page-russia-trip-trump-corey-lewandowski-235784?utm_source=huffingtonpost.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange

Ali never went to jail.

Trigger

frostyjacks wrote: »

Ali never went to jail.

Correct, he was found guilty of draft evasion but successfully appealed the decision, his titles got taken from him and he couldnt fight during the process. it took nearly 4 years I think to win the appeal.

Peregrinus

frostyjacks wrote: »

Ali never went to jail.

He was sentenced to 5 years, but he never served any time because the sentence was stayed pending appeal, and of course his conviction was eventually overturned by the Supreme Court.

He nevertheless paid a very considerable price for his stance, being unable to box professionally for more than 3 years, and so forgoing considerable earnings
during that time. And of course he had the threat of the prison sentence hanging over him throughout that time.

Essential to the concept of "conscientious objector" is that the objector should take a public stand on the grounds of conscience, and should bear whatever costs are associated with that as part of his or her protest. Ali did that; Trump didn't. I wouldn't criticise anybody for taking whatever steps they could to avoid having to fight in the Vietnam war, but I would criticise them for claiming to have been conscientious objectors if in fact they had sought and obtained an exemption on medical grounds.

In fairness, so far as I know Trump never has claimed to have been a conscientious objector, or to have equated his avoidance of the draft with conscientious objection. A Little Pony has denied the distinction between draft avoidance and conscientious objection, but Trump never has. He has equated sleeping around a lot without contracting an STD with fighting in Vietnam, though, which is just as absurd.

Christy42

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

Trumps says he was wire tapped , few days later wikileaks confirms that everyone is tapped. I think the two are linked, but no one in media is joining the dots.
Trump knew something before anyone else. He was obviously wire tapped as he puts it, that of course is an old school saying, but none the less he was clearly being monitored as he was a person of interest at the time of the election. Doesn't the info wikileaks put out today almost confirm that he would have been monitored. Trump has a phone, Obama knew the number, he was an easy target.

It does not confirm that Trump was tapped. Trump said nothing about the CIA's capabilities that have come to light in spite of the fact that he was aware of them (they would be in his briefings). He said he personally had been tapped, nothing else. No new evidence has come to light suggesting that the CIA used their overly capable abilities on Trump or Trump towers.

Trump supporters still spinning to try and twist the serial liar's words into something vaguely sensible but it is far too much of an uphill battle. Trump needs to put up here. If he can't for security reasons he should have waited/fought for this to be released properly. Instead it appears to be a random thought he had during an ad break given he went right back to commenting on tv.

It is also telling that no one seems to have seen evidence of Trump being bugged.

Leroy42

So now even senior GOP members of the house, Mitch McConnell and Devin Nunes, have come out and stated that they have no evidence to back up the claim. Devin Nunes, the chairman of the House intelligence committee, stated at a separate press conference.

“At this point, we don’t have any evidence of that,” said Nunes, whose panel is investigating Russian interference in the US election.

I guess they are just part of this vast conspiracy out to get Trump as well.

Trump has made a very serious allegation against a prior POTUS, and 4 days later has provided nothing at all to back it up. At the very least he needs to offer an apology until such time as he can stand behind the claims.

We now the situation now that the POTUS feels that it is appropriate to state that citizens are breaking the law, to publicly state their guilt without even a shred of evidence. We already had him claiming during the election that his opponent was corrupt, again without substantiating the claim beyond some innuendo and bluster.

Christy42

On the topic of health. Whst is the exact plan for repeal and replace with this monstrosity.

Will Obamacare be fully deactivated before this thing gets voted in or will they have to vote in a new health care bill to repeal Obamacare?

Given the large idealogical differences in the Republican party and the new plan's many many flaws passing it could take some time or be impossible and was wondering if Obamacare will be active throughout this process.

One thing that this bill proves is the achievement Obama managed with his health care bill getting passed. It has flaws but is obviously the basis for healthcare in the US going forward. His legacy seems safe until eventually the US gets to a proper government funded system but that will take a while given Republicans.

Peregrinus

Christy42 wrote: »

On the topic of health. Whst is the exact plan for repeal and replace with this monstrosity.

Will Obamacare be fully deactivated before this thing gets voted in or will they have to vote in a new health care bill to repeal Obamacare?

Given the large idealogical differences in the Republican party and the new plan's many many flaws passing it could take some time or be impossible and was wondering if Obamacare will be active throughout this process.

One thing that this bill proves is the achievement Obama managed with his health care bill getting passed. It has flaws but is obviously the basis for healthcare in the US going forward. His legacy seems safe until eventually the US gets to a proper government funded system but that will take a while given Republicans.

As of now, there is no "exact plan" for repeal and replace. In fact there isn't even a definite plan to repeal the Affordable Care Act; the new health proposals keep significant elements of the existing arrangements, so rather than repeal-and-replace the ACA, they might just amend it to remove the bits they don't like and put in some new bits that they do.

All that remains to be decided; first of all they have to work out what kind of a plan they want. While there is now a definite proposal on the table, it's being attacked both from the left (goes too far) and from the right (doesn't go far enough) and it's not yet clear whether it enjoys enough support to get through Congress. Questions about how and when they will roll out their amended health arrangements won't really be addressed until they have a set of amended health arrangements that seems likely to command majority support in both houses of Congress, and we're not there yet.

Quin_Dub

Christy42 wrote: »

On the topic of health. Whst is the exact plan for repeal and replace with this monstrosity.

Will Obamacare be fully deactivated before this thing gets voted in or will they have to vote in a new health care bill to repeal Obamacare?

Given the large idealogical differences in the Republican party and the new plan's many many flaws passing it could take some time or be impossible and was wondering if Obamacare will be active throughout this process.

One thing that this bill proves is the achievement Obama managed with his health care bill getting passed. It has flaws but is obviously the basis for healthcare in the US going forward. His legacy seems safe until eventually the US gets to a proper government funded system but that will take a while given Republicans.

It appears to be taking heavy hits from all sides..

The Democrats obviously don't like it , but lots of Republicans aren't too keen either for various reasons - Rand Paul and others are saying it doesn't go far enough in removing all the protections etc that ACA brought in - e.g. they want to completely gut Healthcare and remove all government supports for it.

One way or another this is going to run for quite some time yet. Trumps hopes of having this all voted and approved by the end of the month look to be dashed already..

Zubeneschamali

Christy42 wrote: »

it could take some time or be impossible and was wondering if Obamacare will be active throughout this process.

Yes, Obamacare is the law until they change it.

They don't have the votes in the Senate to simply repeal it, so they are going to wreck it instead.

Meanwhile, it turns out our friend Kislyak, the Russian Ambassador, was at a speech Trump gave last April:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-russian-ambassador-sergey-kislyak-meeting-election-campaign-a7617261.html

Peregrinus

Quin_Dub wrote: »

One way or another this is going to run for quite some time yet. Trumps hopes of having this all voted and approved by the end of the month look to be dashed already..

"Who knew health care could be so complicated?"

26000 Elephants

Igotadose wrote: »

In "Trump/Russia news," here we have Corey "The Thug" Lewandowski approving a campaign operatives trip to Russia. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/carter-page-russia-trip-trump-corey-lewandowski-235784?utm_source=huffingtonpost.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange

I just dont buy this guy Carter Page. He seems to be left out as a tethered goat every now and again. He was part of something, sure, but I;d say he knows very little and the real story is nearby.

Interesting (over-) reaction to Andrea Mitchell asking about Russia and China and getting hustled out quickly. Ol' Rex looks decidely uncomfortable.

"When do I get my money?"

26000 Elephants

Peregrinus wrote: »

As of now, there is no "exact plan" for repeal and replace. In fact there isn't even a definite plan to repeal the Affordable Care Act; the new health proposals keep significant elements of the existing arrangements, so rather than repeal-and-replace the ACA, they might just amend it to remove the bits they don't like and put in some new bits that they do.

All they seem to have done so far is to take the word "Affordable" out of the title. And replace it with... America. Because MAGA, right?

That should tell the people a lot about what is going to happen!

But right now, its seems to be just Obamacare 2.0, with added meanness.

Zubeneschamali

26000 Elephants wrote: »

But right now, its seems to be just Obamacare 2.0, with added meanness.

Ah, but the added meanness means no poor people can afford it, and the reduced funding plus continued requirements for coverage of existing conditions means no insurance company will participate.

So although it looks a bit like Obamacare, it won't work at all, so it will not cost any money, and all that lovely cash can be given to rich people in tax cuts.

Making Billionaire Republicans Even Richer Again!

Leroy42

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Ah, but the added meanness means no poor people can afford it, and the reduced funding plus continued requirements for coverage of existing conditions means no insurance company will participate.

So although it looks a bit like Obamacare, it won't work at all, so it will not cost any money, and all that lovely cash can be given to rich people in tax cuts.

Making Billionaire Republicans Even Richer Again!

But that is what the people voted for.

Trump very much ran on a platform of repealing ACA. Yes, he also mentioned replacing it but he never got into specifics of what that actually meant. So the only thing people were sure of in terms of healthcare was that ACA would be repealed.

While it might appear strange to us in Europe, people in america genuinely seem to feel that healthcare is a burden that should not be carried by the state.

seamus

Leroy42 wrote: »

But that is what the people voted for.

Trump very much ran on a platform of repealing ACA. Yes, he also mentioned replacing it but he never got into specifics of what that actually meant. So the only thing people were sure of in terms of healthcare was that ACA would be repealed.

While it might appear strange to us in Europe, people in america genuinely seem to feel that healthcare is a burden that should not be carried by the state.

I think it's more manipulative than that. Yes, there is a cohort of people who feel that healthcare should be privatised and if you can't afford it you should die on the street.

But a lot of the "repeal Obamacare" campaigning focussed on the faults in the ACA rather than the spirit of what it was achieving.

Take Ryan's statement on the AHCA:

“Obamacare is rapidly collapsing. Skyrocketing premiums, soaring deductibles, and dwindling choices are not what the people were promised seven years ago. It’s time to turn a page and rescue our health care system from this disastrous law. The American Health Care Act is a plan to drive down costs, encourage competition, and give every American access to quality, affordable health insurance. It protects young adults, patients with pre-existing conditions, and provides a stable transition so that no one has the rug pulled out from under them.
“Working together, this unified Republican government will deliver relief and peace of mind to the millions of Americans suffering under Obamacare.

The entire movement is based on the idea that Obamacare made things worse and has had a horrible effect on people's healthcare. Mentioning "no-one has the rug pulled out from under them", ignores the fact that Obamacare put that rug there in the first place. "Dwindling choices" - apparently from no choice, to some choice, counts as "dwindling". "Rescuing" the health care system is the same "make America great again" language which promises a return to a state that never existed in the past.

People were duped into believing this lie. They have forgotten that 8 years ago they had no health insurance. And now they're going to be returned to that state as the AHCA aims to remove affordable insurance from lower paid workers and give the money the government saves, to the higher earners.

Leroy42

I agree with all that Seamus, but whether they were duped or not, this is what people voted for.

And not only did they vote from Trump, they gave the GOP majorities in both the House and Senate so effectively ensuring that changes would take place.

You can't second guess what they really wanted. It was obvious to anyone paying even the slightest attention that GOP were totally against Obamacare, mainly on the basis that it make healthcare more social. GOP have always run on a platform of healthcare being left to the market.

People could see what it was like become ACA, and after, and they appear to have decided that they preferred the GOP take on healthcare

Christy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

I agree with all that Seamus, but whether they were duped or not, this is what people voted for.

And not only did they vote from Trump, they gave the GOP majorities in both the House and Senate so effectively ensuring that changes would take place.

You can't second guess what they really wanted. It was obvious to anyone paying even the slightest attention that GOP were totally against Obamacare, mainly on the basis that it make healthcare more social. GOP have always run on a platform of healthcare being left to the market.

People could see what it was like become ACA, and after, and they appear to have decided that they preferred the GOP take on healthcare

Well yeah but only because the GOP take on healthcare was not defined so they could fill in the blanks themselves. It is like the occasional annoying polls they do about Obama vs a generic Republican or similar. The real person with real flaws loses badly all the time. The generic Republican ends up as a moderate in the heads of the independents and hard line in the party faithful. Once a candidate is picked these people get disappointed. (Note this works in reverse, pick a generic Democrat vs Trump and Trump's ability to win an election will seem to dive further).

It is just the edge all opposition partied have the world over.

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

But that is what the people voted for.

Trump promised that more people would have better coverage under his replacement plan. It was a great plan, the greatest. Yuge. Bigly.

Ryan has already said that the number of people with coverage is a bogus measure, and the only thing that matters is cutting costs.

Zubeneschamali

From Ryan: give every American access to quality, affordable health insurance.

His plan will not give anyone coverage, it will give them access to coverage. When it turns out they cannot afford it because they are poor, well, that is not Ryan's fault (nor his problem, since he certainly isn't poor).

Chaffetz has said that poor people should maybe stop buying iPhones and buy healthcare instead. He not only doesn't care that poor people will die under the Republican plan, he actually thinks it is OK to mock them about it.

Wanderer78

Zubeneschamali wrote:

His plan will not give anyone coverage, it will give them access to coverage. When it turns out they cannot afford it because they are poor, well, that is not Ryan's fault (nor his problem, since he certainly isn't poor).

Zubeneschamali wrote:

Chaffetz has said that poor people should maybe stop buying iPhones and buy healthcare instead. He not only doesn't care that poor people will die under the Republican plan, he actually thinks it is OK to mock them about it.

Nothing new there, American elites have never cared for or never will care for its own people. This administration is very boring now, same ould story

Leroy42

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Nothing new there, American elites have never cared for or never will care for its own people. This administration is very boring now, same ould story

But that is my point. Americans knew what they were voting for when they went with Trump. YEs he said he would replace it even better, but like most things he said nobody took that seriously.

The GOP spent 7 years fighting to repeal ACA, and ended up winning both house & Senate. It would seem, that people in America simply do not place value an healthcare in terms of equal access.

And it is not just the Elites. Plenty of Trump voters, when asked were clearly against Obamacare. Now, to the point that they were duped, well that is their own fault.

Voters, everywhere, need to pay more attention to what is going on around them rather than just being led by soundbites

wes

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

From Ryan: give every American access to quality, affordable health insurance.

His plan will not give anyone coverage, it will give them access to coverage. When it turns out they cannot afford it because they are poor, well, that is not Ryan's fault (nor his problem, since he certainly isn't poor).

Chaffetz has said that poor people should maybe stop buying iPhones and buy healthcare instead. He not only doesn't care that poor people will die under the Republican plan, he actually thinks it is OK to mock them about it.

Yeah its horrible, but a lot of them voted for this, and end of the day, you get the government you vote for. If your voted for the Republicans, then imho the people who did this don't have a leg to stand on to complain.

Voted need to start taking responsibility for there choices imho. Trying to blame elites etc for there own choice is imho wearing thin.

Wanderer78

Leroy42 wrote:

Voters, everywhere, need to pay more attention to what is going on around them rather than just being led by soundbites

True but you d be surprised the amount of people that are fooled by sound bites, happens here to. It's very disturbing to watch this administration in action, I truly believe America is slowly heading towards a civil war. If this administration doesn't pull some major things off, their country is in big trouble. The lesson for everybody is to make sure the lulas don't get into power, but thankfully we don't seem to have real serious lulas in Irish politics

weisses

wes wrote: »

Yeah its horrible, but a lot of them voted for this, and end of the day, you get the government you vote for. If your voted for the Republicans, then imho the people who did this don't have a leg to stand on to complain.

Voted need to start taking responsibility for there choices imho. Trying to blame elites etc for there own choice is imho wearing thin.

Sad part in this is that the majority are paying the price for what the minority voted for

Wanderer78

wes wrote:

Yeah its horrible, but a lot of them voted for this, and end of the day, you get the government you vote for. If your voted for the Republicans, then imho the people who did this don't have a leg to stand on to complain.

I disagree with this, politicians lie and flip flop on things as soon as they get into power, even before so. Never underestimate the power of vested interests, people rarely get what the deserve or require

wes

weisses wrote: »

Sad part in this is that the majority are paying the price for what the minority voted for

Yeah, it unfortunate, that the US political system allowed someone like Trump to get in, and a lot of people are going to suffer, because of it. My sympathy lies with the majority that didn't vote for him.

wes

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I disagree with this, politicians lie and flip flop on things as soon as they get into power, even before so. Never underestimate the power of vested interests, people rarely get what the deserve or require

This is true, politicans lie and Trump voters, picked the guy, who lied throught his teeth dozens of times, putting every other politican to shame. His lies were so damned blatant, but they chose to vote for him in anyways. Sorry, no sympathy. People need to understand that they get what they vote for. You can't blame Obama forever, like Trump is trying to do, with even more blatant and insane lies that he is throwing out there.

Instead they harped on about liberal elites, and scorned experts, and chose to ignore all the people who tried to warn them. Its sad that so many people have seemingly lost any sense of reality, but at the end of the day, they choose to get there information from Fox News and Breitbart, and work themselves into a insane frenzy.

They chose this, and now they reap what they have sown. I am simply holding to the same standard as everyone else, and excuses offered for these people, simply ring hollow to me. They made there choice, and they need own it.

Sadly, the majority who didn't want this crap, will suffer as well.

oscarBravo

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/07/the-trump-white-house-is-changing-its-tune-on-wire-tapping-and-hoping-you-dont-notice/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_trumpwikileaks-0701pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.3cea00d99429

On Tuesday afternoon, in his first on-camera briefing in a week, White House press secretary Sean Spicer said this when asked for proof of Trump's wiretapping claims: “It’s not a question of new proof or less proof or whatever.” Instead, he insisted, the goal of Trump's tweets was simply to get congressional investigators to look into the possibility of wiretapping. Congress is now doing this, so, in Spicer's mind, mission accomplished.

Except that what Trump tweeted and what Spicer is now saying aren't the same thing. Not at all. And it is a question of “new proof.” Or, at the very least, some — any? — proof.

Same old story with Trump: "Ignore what he said, here's what we've decided he meant." By which standard, a chatbot could be President - and would probably be a better one.