President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

Water John

Most issues or conflicts are a bit more complicated than a coin with just two sides.

Really Interested

Harika wrote: »

By attacking Assad, USA were supporting ISIS, sounds weird but welcome to the puzzle of Syria

The Donald is discovering that war is not business its war, and the USA has discovered (but seems to forget) that doing what you think is good can lead to serious bad thing.

Sam Russell

Really Interested wrote: »

The Donald is discovering that war is not business its war, and the USA has discovered (but seems to forget) that doing what you think is good can lead to serious bad thing.

It is not difficult to get into a conflict, but it is near impossible to get out again. Once they put boots on the ground, or start shooting, it is not easy to beat a retreat, or leave, with any semblance of having achieved anything positive.

The USA has yet to learn this lesson.

Really Interested

Water John wrote: »

Most issues or conflicts are a bit more complicated than a coin with just two sides.

But Don thinks in binary, his chat with China proves that. In his world and too keep his surrports happy it's a binary issue.

Back in 2015 I was in Abu Dhabi airport, I got a shave, it turned out the barber was a Syrian. We started talking his view was the only hope for his country was not USA but Russia. To my mind that was strange but it thought me it's not binary it's very complex.

Really Interested

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is not difficult to get into a conflict, but it is near impossible to get out again. Once they put boots on the ground, or start shooting, it is not easy to beat a retreat, or leave, with any semblance of having achieved anything positive.

The USA has yet to learn this lesson.

It's 60 years since Korea, 50 since Vietnam and 40 since Afghanistan 30 since the Middle East yet they still doing the same things.

aloyisious

It's an irony of history that each generation has to learn the same lesson the hard way separately in it's own time. Each person who (in his/her own mind) see themselves as entering another country as peacekeepers don't know they are seen as interfering busybodies an an internecine war by the locals.

eire4

Really Interested wrote: »

The Donald is discovering that war is not business its war, and the USA has discovered (but seems to forget) that doing what you think is good can lead to serious bad thing.

I have no proof to back this assertion up but IMHO I think the bombing of Syria was about getting the Russian interference in the last US election and possible Trump campaign collusion off the headlines with some sabre rattling.

Really Interested

eire4 wrote: »

I have no proof to back this assertion up but IMHO I think the bombing of Syria was about getting the Russian interference in the last US election and possible Trump campaign collusion off the headlines with some sabre rattling.

You may very well be right, but it did not seem to work what ever the agenda.

aloyisious

eire4 wrote: »

I have no proof to back this assertion up but IMHO I think the bombing of Syria was about getting the Russian interference in the last US election and possible Trump campaign collusion off the headlines with some sabre rattling.

Interesting idea, with a little bit of co-play by Vlad to make Don seem no one's puppet.

Water John

That may not be an outrageous theory.
Putin has invested a lot of effort in Trump. Just because its being looked at, and he may not be able to use it fully to his advantage ATM, he is not going to throw the whole lot overboard.

Mr.Micro

Water John wrote: »

That may not be an outrageous theory.
Putin has invested a lot of effort in Trump. Just because its being looked at, and he may not be able to use it fully to his advantage ATM, he is not going to throw the whole lot overboard.

IMO Putin is a fool then, to think that Trump is predictable and not shallow or fickle. Putin may have backed Trump for other reasons, such as weakness or open to manipulation, who knows. It's the people who suffer whilst these two posture and jockey for power.

Mr.Micro

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is not difficult to get into a conflict, but it is near impossible to get out again. Once they put boots on the ground, or start shooting, it is not easy to beat a retreat, or leave, with any semblance of having achieved anything positive.

The USA has yet to learn this lesson.

It's the American way. I am not sure it could survive as a nation economically if it was not at war with someone. The arms business would tank. One day I fear the US will take a step too far. The World is getting smaller and China and Russia won't always be bystanders.

...And Justice

Mr.Micro wrote: »

It's the American way. I am not sure it could survive as a nation economically if it was not at war with someone. The arms business would tank. One day I fear the US will take a step too far. The World is getting smaller and China and Russia won't always be bystanders.

The rhetoric coming out of the US today is very worrisome. I actually think Kim is thick enough to provoke an attack, the step to far is very close.

Water John

Trump supporting Erdogan. Le Pen, Putin, Jong un, Erdogan, Trump, they all want to return to a variation of Royal rule in their own patch.
Simply, issue a decree. Whatever takes your fancy on the day.

Leroy42

OT I know, but I cannot understand why people are voting for these type of people. (I am tying it into Trump as I think Trump sees politics in the same way)

Anyone that says, like Erdogan, that they need more power and need to be questioned less should always be an alarm bell.

The same with Trump. Anyone who states that only they can fix it, but gives no indication of how they would do it, should be setting alarms bells ringing.

I mean, I get that people are feeling disenfranchised with the system, but to think that by making it more autocratic is going to solve the problem seems counter to me

Christy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

OT I know, but I cannot understand why people are voting for these type of people. (I am tying it into Trump as I think Trump sees politics in the same way)

Anyone that says, like Erdogan, that they need more power and need to be questioned less should always be an alarm bell.

The same with Trump. Anyone who states that only they can fix it, but gives no indication of how they would do it, should be setting alarms bells ringing.

I mean, I get that people are feeling disenfranchised with the system, but to think that by making it more autocratic is going to solve the problem seems counter to me

It has to be a comfort thing involved. In mean I get the comfort of someone coming in saying they will fix anything while the left wing is much more we will put systems in place which will be abused by some. We will give more people the benefit of the doubt with regards to immigration and social services and I see why it makes people afraid even if I subscribe to those things myself.

Even things like investing in education as a society makes it hard to see the benefits for society as a whole ad it is very long term whereas saying that if you cut this guys taxes he will create a new business tomorrow is short term (even if false).

Water John

You can now add May to the list in my previous post.

Christy42

Water John wrote: »

You can now add May to the list in my previous post.

Why? Maybe a bit of a quick turnaround but a chance to remove her from power seems like the opposite of what the rest in your list want?

Water John

May is aiming to consolidate her own position for 5 years, by hammering the main opposition. That seems par for the course.

Harika

Christy42 wrote: »

Why? Maybe a bit of a quick turnaround but a chance to remove her from power seems like the opposite of what the rest in your list want?

She knows that she will win the election, it is just for her to cement her position, like Erdogan also knows that he is the high favorite when the 2018 elections will run and he will become the divine ruler of Turkey.
If Labour wouldn't be hopeless, she wouldn't have called for the snap election.

Christy42

Harika wrote: »

She knows that she will win the election, it is just for her to cement her position, like Erdogan also knows that he is the high favorite when the 2018 elections will run and he will become the divine ruler of Turkey.
If Labour wouldn't be hopeless, she wouldn't have called for the snap election.

Probably not but the election has to happen sometime and Labour look to be useless for the forsee able future. At least this might start a labour rebuild instead of waiting for when the election had to happen.

wes

Harika wrote: »

he will become the divine ruler of Turkey.

I think he is going for Sultan.......

Christy42

Interestingly one of the few sources of media Trump seems to endorse has just admitted it is a load of bull. http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/is-alex-jones-faking/

Alex Jones of Infowars fame is in a custody battle and his ex wife is using the show as claims that he is unstable (see Sandy Hook or pretty much any event conspiracy theories from the man) and he is countering with it is simply performance art.

listermint

Leroy42 wrote: »

OT I know, but I cannot understand why people are voting for these type of people. (I am tying it into Trump as I think Trump sees politics in the same way)

Anyone that says, like Erdogan, that they need more power and need to be questioned less should always be an alarm bell.

The same with Trump. Anyone who states that only they can fix it, but gives no indication of how they would do it, should be setting alarms bells ringing.

I mean, I get that people are feeling disenfranchised with the system, but to think that by making it more autocratic is going to solve the problem seems counter to me

Misinformation, information wars skewing opinion by painting the opposition in whatever light you like. This is a war on normal democracy and Russia has been fighting it for the last ten years . Continued , daily relentless. They literally spread lies and feed trolls their daily appetite of bull. Russia has sewn up the value of this battle and has used it and is using it across the globe.

You either blame the people for being silly enough to swallow the fake stories or the organisations that allowed it to be peddled for not reacting faster.

It's there, it's plain to see .

ECO_Mental

listermint wrote: »

Leroy42 wrote: »

Misinformation, information wars skewing opinion by painting the opposition in whatever light you like. This is a war on normal democracy and Russia has been fighting it for the last ten years . Continued , daily relentless. They literally spread lies and feed trolls their daily appetite of bull. Russia has sewn up the value of this battle and has used it and is using it across the globe.

You either blame the people for being silly enough to swallow the fake stories or the organisations that allowed it to be peddled for not reacting faster.

It's there, it's plain to see .

I agree, BUT your assertion thats its plain to see is wrong. The perverse beauty in this fake news is that its not obvious. A good fake news story will be 80-90% truth, its the little lie in the middle of the story that festers, gains momentum, picked up by a local news broadcaster, retweeted on, etc.

The real problem here is people are getting their news from Facebook etc. They do not rely in the mainstream media who have to check their sources get back up on stories. That is why i am now paying reputable newspapers a subscription eg Washington post. Yes they might get it wrong at times, but at least they put a retraction in, an apology etc when they get it wrong. When have you seen trumpski apologise? Or brietbart?

realitykeeper

North Korea is a problem that will solve itself without the US picking a fight with it. If the US do start trouble with Pyongyang, they are likely to save that regime and prolong it indeterminably. The fact is, North Korea will convert from Communism to Capitalism by the end of the decade following the collapse of Capitalism in the west later this year. When Communism ended in Russia and Eastern Europe, the apartheid regime collapsed in South Africa as a result and similar knock on effects will bring about the downfall of Communism in North Korea.

Harika

realitykeeper wrote: »

The fact is, North Korea will convert from Communism to Capitalism by the end of the decade following the collapse of Capitalism in the west later this year. When Communism ended in Russia and Eastern Europe, the apartheid regime collapsed in South Africa as a result and similar knock on effects will bring about the downfall of Communism in North Korea.

is this a fallout of trump too? I don't see capitalism failing, but hear people claiming it for decades.

Water John

I Think Reality, you just had a fit of Unreality there.

aloyisious

Interesting listening to the US Govt now saying the Naval task force is not heading to N/Korea, despite the Trump Admin & others in para 1.... the actual facts in Para 2 below are different (both lifted from today's LA Times).


(Para 1). Adm. Harry Harris, who heads U.S. Pacific Command, initially announced in a news release on April 8 that he had directed the Carl Vinson carrier strike group to "sail north" from Singapore, adding that the ships were being diverted from planned port visits to Australia.

The Trump administration cited the deployment of the naval strike force, which includes the carrier and four warships, as a clear warning to North Korea, which was said to be planning a nuclear test last weekend in conjunction with a national holiday.

“We are sending an armada, very powerful,” to the waters off Korea, President Trump told Fox Business News on April 12.

A day earlier, Defense Secretary James N. Mattis told Pentagon reporters that the aircraft carrier was “on her way up there.”

Some news organizations cited the armada's apparent race northward as a sign of a possible preemptive attack on North Korea, spurring global concerns of a possible war.

(Para 2). But on Saturday, a full week after the initial news release, the Navy posted a photograph showing the Carl Vinson transiting south through the Sunda Strait between the Indonesian islands of Sumatra and Java, about 3,500 miles southwest of the Korean peninsula.

As Defense News first reported on Monday, the strike force has been taking part in exercises with Australian forces in the Indian Ocean over the last week

It is now – really – steaming northward and is expected to arrive in the Sea of Japan sometime next week, U.S. officials said.

................................................................................................................................................

It seem's that normal diplomacy, as practiced by the US State dept, has some time yet before the von Clausewitz line is used to further world peace.

Harika

aloyisious wrote: »

Interesting listening to the US Govt now saying the Naval task force is not heading to N/Korea, despite the Trump Admin & others in para 1.... the actual facts in Para 2 below are different (both lifted from today's LA Times).

It seem's that normal diplomacy, as practiced by the US State dept, has some time yet before the von Clausewitz line is used to further world peace.

Yeah they screwed up and send the fleet to somewhere else. Nothing says "Greatest Army" better than "oh that was a miscommunication"