President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

Valord

Rightwing wrote: »

We must remember that the policies of one president can greatly impact on the success of others. Obama for instance may have been a great president in the 70's. But he got a bad hand from Bush and made it worse, now Trump is in an impossible situation.
What we can say is, since Reagan, America has gone from a position of economic greatness with zero debt, to a country with a massive debt problem, deficit, ageing population with a pensions timebomb on the horizon. Got involved in several costly wars, caused mayhem in several parts of the globe.

Just because America has much larger debts than in the past doesn't mean it's not still economically very powerful though. And Reagan ran a deficit for his entire term too. The debt wasn't at zero with him either, even if it was lower. The debt to GDP ratio increased greatly under Reagan, and even further under Bush. Clinton actually reduced it over his term. Not by much of course, but still, he's the only one since Reagan to make it go anywhere but up.

Also, if you define success as a president by things like balancing budgets, controlling debt and fixing the aging population, it's very odd that you prioritise expensive pork barrel issues like building a wall and reducing the already low rates of immigration.

Calina

Until he stops wasting money by going to Mar a Lago all the freaking time there is no way he can be credibly seen as a fiscal conservative.

Professor Moriarty

Rightwing wrote: »

We'd be gone off on a tangent, but suffice to say they've managed to get total failures since Bush senior onwards.

GHW "Read my lips; no new taxes" Bush was a better president than Clinton or Obama? Not on my planet.

Harika

Rightwing wrote: »

He needs to:

Build the wall
Secure the borders
Fiscal conservatism
Forget about Syria etc
Hit China with a trade war

Those are very open targets, like when is the wall build? Like not even he can think that they will build a 4000km wall in two years?
What are secure borders?
What defines fiscal conservatism
When forgetting about Syria, does that mean no influence whatsoever? Even after a chemical weapon attack?

And wow you really think going to war, even a trade war is a good idea? This is something that puzzles me with the alt-right, they get rock hard when talking about starting a culture/trade/anti-sjw war.

PopePalpatine

Harika wrote: »

Those are very open targets, like when is the wall build? Like not even he can think that they will build a 4000km wall in two years?
What are secure borders?
What defines fiscal conservatism
When forgetting about Syria, does that mean no influence whatsoever? Even after a chemical weapon attack?

And wow you really think going to war, even a trade war is a good idea? This is something that puzzles me with the alt-right, they get rock hard when talking about starting a culture/trade/anti-sjw war.

It's their own form of the "virtue signalling" they whine about, only that their "virtues" are jingoism, small government and an outdated ideal of masculinity.

InTheTrees

Rightwing wrote: »

He needs to:

You said he wasnt a failure. You still haven't said what you think his successes have been so far.

demfad

Harika wrote: »

Okay, so let's look two years into the future, how would you define a successful Trump presidency and how a not successful Trump presidency?

Edit:
I give you mine, some are harder to achieve than others in all fairness:
Successful:
Replaced Obamacare with a cheaper healthcare system that reaches more people
Reduced unemployment to a lower level than today
Stabilize middle east, ukraine and north korea situation
Get funding for border wall and start process
Pass Tax reform


Not successful:
Obamacare implodes no substitute as replacement, millions without health insurance
Unemployment levels stay or raise
Fuel middle east, ukraine and north korea crisis with escalating into open war
Abandon border wall project
Abandon tax reform
Get impeached/jailed for treason

It could be worse in fairness.

rossie1977

Bill Clinton was the most fiscally conservative us president of the past 50 years and yet the Republicans hate everything about him and tried to impeach him for something he did in his private time.

Us debt increased by 168% under Reagan and a number of years during his term the budget deficit exceeded $200 billion...the deficit had never exceeded $74b prior to Reagan

Christy42

InTheTrees wrote: »

You said he wasnt a failure. You still haven't said what you think his successes have been so far.

In fairness the poster said he was not a failure yet. He merely wasn't ready to judge him this early (though it was a marker Trump encouraged in his campaign).

Christy42

Actually one accidental effect of the Trump Presidency so far is to highlight Obama's legacy.

It shows off Obama's ability to tell people what he means to tell people. Trump contrasts Obama's knowledge of various policies and his work ethic. See the difference between the effort put into Obamacare vs the rushed Republican health care bill. Also Obama even managed to work with some Republicans on it, Trump could not work with a large chunk of his own party on health care nevermind the opposition.

Obama may have made Obamacare but Trump is the man who made Obamacare popular with American people.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/02/24/politics/pew-survey-obamacare-support-record-high/index.html

While he had issues with foreign policy thus far it seems like Obama will be in between two far more aggressive presidents (Obama intervened when countries had gone to pot, Bush made the mess in Iraq and Trump has serious upped the anti on Obama's various projects as well as taking attempting to use the military to scare north Korea. While Obama took far too long to stop weapons sales to the Saudis, Trump made the decision to start them again.

Obama also made the US far more popular in the western world after the Bush years. Trump has pissed off countries from all sorts. The only country that may have increased their respect for us could be Saudi Arabia as far as I can see.

I am unsure as to how much he deserves but Obama will get credit for the gay marriage becoming legal across the country which is contrasted with Trump removing some lgbt protections.

Rightwing

Christy42 wrote: »

Actually one accidental effect of the Trump Presidency so far is to highlight Obama's legacy.

It shows off Obama's ability to tell people what he means to tell people. Trump contrasts Obama's knowledge of various policies and his work ethic. See the difference between the effort put into Obamacare vs the rushed Republican health care bill. Also Obama even managed to work with some Republicans on it, Trump could not work with a large chunk of his own party on health care nevermind the opposition.

Obama may have made Obamacare but Trump is the man who made Obamacare popular with American people.
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/02/24/politics/pew-survey-obamacare-support-record-high/index.html

While he had issues with foreign policy thus far it seems like Obama will be in between two far more aggressive presidents (Obama intervened when countries had gone to pot, Bush made the mess in Iraq and Trump has serious upped the anti on Obama's various projects as well as taking attempting to use the military to scare north Korea. While Obama took far too long to stop weapons sales to the Saudis, Trump made the decision to start them again.

Obama also made the US far more popular in the western world after the Bush years. Trump has pissed off countries from all sorts. The only country that may have increased their respect for us could be Saudi Arabia as far as I can see.

I am unsure as to how much he deserves but Obama will get credit for the gay marriage becoming legal across the country which is contrasted with Trump removing some lgbt protections.

His legacy is he got Trump in as president. There's a lesson here for the Western world. They are abandoning the majority to pander to minority.

B_Wayne

Rightwing wrote: »

His legacy is he got Trump in as president. There's a lesson here for the Western world. They are abandoning the majority to pander to minority.

Yet Trump still cannot get rid of Obamacare which is a significant part of his legacy.

BabyCheeses

Building the wall and being a fiscal conservative is like being a steak eating vegan.

Billy86

Rightwing wrote: »

His legacy is he got Trump in as president. There's a lesson here for the Western world. They are abandoning the majority to pander to minority.

No matter how much you might want it to be, that's the legacy of the person Trump ran against as well as an amazingly under-informed and gullible electorate, not of Obama, who left office with one of the better approval ratings of any president since they began tracking.

Trump also lost the popular vote by millions, so your last sentence makes no sense. He literally won the election by pandering to the minority, but the EC system is also set to pander to the minority so it worked for him.

Rightwing

B_Wayne wrote: »

Yet Trump still cannot get rid of Obamacare which is a significant part of his legacy.

They will improve it. They'll do something on tax. Like in a match, you have to admit when your team is losing

relax carry on

Rightwing wrote: »

They will improve it. They'll do something on tax. Like in a match, you have to admit when your team is losing

So I'm assuming you are a republican. Do you see the Trump presidency as "winning" then? Do you not think his presidency will damage the party in anyway? Will he ultimately cause more harm than good for the Republicans?

Christy42

Rightwing wrote: »

They will improve it. They'll do something on tax. Like in a match, you have to admit when your team is losing

I am sure they will do something on tax. Health care was a big loss. They are Republican so they can't put more money into it. They can't reduce it as nothing but a complete repeal will satisfy and the democrats will fight any reduction of healthcare for the less well off. Trump had some nice soundbites about better cheaper healthcare but since he did not have a plan for it we can safely say it was a pack of lies.

Republicans have had 7 years to come up with something. They are not coming up with a plan anytime soon.

Rightwing

relax carry on wrote: »

So I'm assuming you are a republican. Do you see the Trump presidency as "winning" then? Do you not think his presidency will damage the party in anyway? Will he ultimately cause more harm than good for the Republicans?

They won, against all expectations. Got everything. Bit like Enda Kenny, no one really expected him to do so well, but again, the predecessor (cowen) was so poor, the door was left wide open.

InTheTrees

Christy42 wrote: »

Trump had some nice soundbites about better cheaper healthcare but since he did not have a plan for it we can safely say it was a pack of lies.

Yup. He blatantly lied. The white house never had any kind of idea what to do and ended up going with Ryans plan.

All his bluster about an "amazing" alternative everyone would love was lies.

B_Wayne

Rightwing wrote: »

They won, against all expectations. Got everything. Bit like Enda Kenny, no one really expected him to do so well, but again, the predecessor (cowen) was so poor, the door was left wide open.

And so far he has been absolutely disastrous in terms of actually doing anything within his first hundred day. That's the honeymoon period but he has literally failed miserably, he has numerous failed executive orders, his promise of getting rid of Obamacare failed. He has also had an investigation opened into collusion with Russia and has been plagued with numerous other scandals. His presidency to date has been a disaster.

Rightwing

B_Wayne wrote: »

And so far he has been absolutely disastrous in terms of actually doing anything within his first hundred day. That's the honeymoon period but he has literally failed miserably, he has numerous failed executive orders, his promise of getting rid of Obamacare failed. He has also had an investigation opened into collusion with Russia and has been plagued with numerous other scandals. His presidency to date has been a disaster.

All fake news.

Do people want his tenure to be a disaster (just because it's trump) ? Or would they prefer if he pulled off a good tax plan etc?

Water John

Do you know what 'fake news' is? It's not what Donald Trump calls fake news.

The 100 days by any objective measure, and you can use DT's own 100 day pledge as the measure if you want, has failed badly.

B_Wayne

Rightwing wrote: »

All fake news.

Do people want his tenure to be a disaster (just because it's trump) ? Or would they prefer if he pulled off a good tax plan etc?

Nope, none of the above is 'fake news'. This is based on his behaviour, his blocked executive orders which had a large tendency to be xenophobic, his constant attacks on the media, his weekly golf trips to his own resort and his failure to get through his landmark destruction of Obamacare. The Russia scandal is still ongoing and will continue to be for the foreseeable.

Since half of his policies consist of racist and xenophobic rubbish, I'm happy for him to be a disaster as he will be a lesson learned on the dangers of electing ignoramuses into positions of power. Which he is proving to be.

ancapailldorcha

Rightwing wrote: »

All fake news.

Do people want his tenure to be a disaster (just because it's trump) ? Or would they prefer if he pulled off a good tax plan etc?

Dismissing viewpoints you don't like as fake news is unaccepable here.

You have multiple below standard posts in this thread. Any more and you will get a ban.

Christy42

Rightwing wrote: »

All fake news.

Do people want his tenure to be a disaster (just because it's trump) ? Or would they prefer if he pulled off a good tax plan etc?

A: the definition of fake news does not apply here.

B: sure I would love him to come up with a good tax plan. I would also love if a monkey walked up and gave me a million quid. I have to accept they are exceptionally unlikely.

Donald placed a lot of political capital on the line for his first 100 days.
The immigration ban could not have a delay as the "bad dudes" would get in. However it was so badly implemented and supported that it is still not in place. Note that the original timeline for the main ban has since ended so presumably there is no need for it any more.

The wall needed to be started quickly was the excuse for the US paying for the wall (with Mexico paying back later theoretically) and now it doesn't look like it will be in the budget.

Even the health care bill was pushed with only a few weeks work on it. The sanctuary cities was also pushed. He pushed all these (while spending his weekends golfing). You can't start of trying to do everything in a frenzy as the great man who will cut through all the red tape. Fail spectacularly and then pass it off as just early days. He rushed these things forward not through he liberals.

Billy86

InTheTrees wrote: »

Yup. He blatantly lied. The white house never had any kind of idea what to do and ended up going with Ryans plan.

All his bluster about an "amazing" alternative everyone would love was lies.

Now now, Trump was happy to accept claims he wrote that bill before it completely died on it's arse. He can own that right along with the other Republicans, too.

RDM_83 again

Leroy42 wrote: »

Secondly, and I understand that this is no really valued by the US voters, but Obama got US 'liked' again. After 9/11, most countries were on the side of the US, but as time went on and W Bush made things worse, by the end of his term the US was seen as almost not welcome. Anti US sentiment was growing around the world. Not just the normal Anti Capitalist Pigs stuff, but normally pro US countries like Ireland were moving steadily away. Obama fixed this. Sure he might have all been BS, but it was sold well. That is very positive for the US.

Christy42 wrote: »

Obama also made the US far more popular in the western world after the Bush years. Trump has pissed off countries from all sorts. The only country that may have increased their respect for us could be Saudi Arabia as far as I can see.

I don't think outside opinion of current US really matters in the slightest with the possible exception of its real potential enemies.

Foreign person on the streets view doesn't matter to the voters and it really doesn't matter to the Republican voters, if they are concerned about what some random Brit or Italian thinks they probably vote Democrat anyway.

Friendly nations opinion doesn't matter, they aren't going to cause any issues in any significant way as the USA is too vital a trade partner, if they start to consider the US as a flakey ally its a win for the US anyway as they up their defence spending reducing the load on NATO.
Allies not aiding in foreign wars isn't a big deal, France goes its own way anyway, Britain will generally support the US anyway and even if those countries don't its not a loss that will effect mission capabilities.

Neutral smaller poorer countries, who else are they going to deal with apart from China who they already do anyway.

Larger potential players, China and Russia, both respect strength, don't care about foreign opinion and are more concerned about sphere's of influence and are strategically vastly weaker than the USA.

The cold war is over, there is no USSR, we had terms like the 3rd world because there was another major backer a country could switch too if the US wasn't sweet to them, that day is long past.

rossie1977 wrote: »

Us debt increased by 168% under Reagan and a number of years during his term the budget deficit exceeded $200 billion...the deficit had never exceeded $74b prior to Reagan

Reagan was a Cold War politician and should be judged as such, excessive defence spending might have been an wasteful tool but it had a point in and off itself aside from results thats less relevant these days (basically even if it wasn't delivering observable results the soviets could see the money being pumped in and remember they don't know whats waste and whats being diverted to black projects and Skunk works)

Rightwing

Christy42 wrote: »

A: the definition of fake news does not apply here.

B: sure I would love him to come up with a good tax plan. I would also love if a monkey walked up and gave me a million quid. I have to accept they are exceptionally unlikely.

Donald placed a lot of political capital on the line for his first 100 days.
The immigration ban could not have a delay as the "bad dudes" would get in. However it was so badly implemented and supported that it is still not in place. Note that the original timeline for the main ban has since ended so presumably there is no need for it any more.

The wall needed to be started quickly was the excuse for the US paying for the wall (with Mexico paying back later theoretically) and now it doesn't look like it will be in the budget.

Even the health care bill was pushed with only a few weeks work on it. The sanctuary cities was also pushed. He pushed all these (while spending his weekends golfing). You can't start of trying to do everything in a frenzy as the great man who will cut through all the red tape. Fail spectacularly and then pass it off as just early days. He rushed these things forward not through he liberals.

I'm not posting on this thread anymore for obvious reasons, but:

Fake news, does anyone know who or what to believe anymore?, I certainly don't. All this CIA stuff was an embarrassment.

His tax plan will struggle to get though because the country is in a poor situation economically. Bringing Corp Tax down to 15% is good in theory. Compete with the likes of Irl, but the deficit looks unsustainable.

I wouldn't get too caught up with the 100 day thing, that's just an arbitrary number. I do concede Trump does make things easy for his critics when spouting stuff.

Water John

Runs off a one page tax plan to get it inside the 100 days.
The emperor has no clothes, except one A4 page.

Professor Moriarty

President refuses to disclose 20 years of tax returns. President introduces large cuts to business taxes. Nothing to see here. Move along.