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President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

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    #7892
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,372 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    This is very weird. Trump is voted in by voters but it's not their fault that Trump is president. Doesn't compute.


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    #7893
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Nobody has claimed that the systems are not part of the problem, but trying to deflect the blame for the people who actually voted makes no sense.

    People allowed themselves to be caught up the anti-establishment fervour, to become part of the racist mob. Maybe they aren't racists themselves, but they voted for a racist. They voted for a man with clear evidence of less than stellar view of women. A man that had a history of leaving sub-contractors to foot the bill, and man that was currently involved in a case, which he settled, for defrauding students out of millions of dollars.

    None of this was unknown, or alleged, or probable. It was all known about. Yet the voters decided to go with him anyway.

    Sure the system is a fault for letting itself get taken over by interests etc, but unlike in Ire and Uk, the voters actually had a chance beforehand to dump Trump and HC from even getting on the ballot, the Primaries. They failed to do that.

    Sometimes we, the voters, need to acknowledge that either by our actions or inactions we have to take responsibility for the problem.

    Look a the recent attempt to repeal Obamacare. The 1st one fell because the House Reps got torn apart at local meetings. They were left in no doubt how the voters felt. That is taking responsibility.

    Anyway, this is not the thread for debating the rights and responsibilities of voters. For whatever reason Trump became POTUS. Its Trumps responsibility now


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    #7894
    vetinari
    Registered Users Posts: 1,026 ✭✭✭vetinari


    Kitsunegari wrote: »
    That's an incredible line to take. Yes, blame the voters and not the system which produces both corrupt and terrible candidates. How should they carry the can? Demonise them further? What about the people that didn't vote? How should they be held responsible?

    Why not hold people responsible for who they vote for? That's a strange opinion to have. Hillary was clearly more qualified than Trump. Voting for Trump was clearly going for the unknown dangerous option. You vote for someone like that, you don't get a pass.


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    #7895
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,372 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    Nobody has claimed that the systems are not part of the problem, but trying to deflect the blame for the people who actually voted makes no sense.

    People allowed themselves to be caught up the anti-establishment fervour, to become part of the racist mob. Maybe they aren't racists themselves, but they voted for a racist. They voted for a man with clear evidence of less than stellar view of women. A man that had a history of leaving sub-contractors to foot the bill, and man that was currently involved in a case, which he settled, for defrauding students out of millions of dollars.

    None of this was unknown, or alleged, or probable. It was all known about. Yet the voters decided to go with him anyway.

    Sure the system is a fault for letting itself get taken over by interests etc, but unlike in Ire and Uk, the voters actually had a chance beforehand to dump Trump and HC from even getting on the ballot, the Primaries. They failed to do that.

    It's not complicated. If a voter does not involve themselves in politics then they cannot effect change from within a party. If they then elect representatives - senators, congressmen, mayors etc. - and these representatives then go on to support Trump or Clinton for president, then guess what? It's the voters fault when Trump or Clinton are elected.


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    #7896
    Igotadose
    Registered Users Posts: 13,526 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Kitsunegari wrote: »
    That's not really a fair comparison. The narrative from the media was that Trump's fans are idiots. The Democrats decided to focus on Trump's faults rather than the benefits of what Clinton would bring to the table. Trump's fans and opponents of Clinton were demonised in the media; being labelled as misogynists, for not supporting Clinton, and racists for supporting Trump.

    Articles like this go to show just how out-of-touch some of the major political analysts are. They didn't accept that Trump was a potential President and he was wrote off before the race even began. Washington and a lot of the media are more responsible than the people that actually cast a vote for Trump. This is the just deserts for a country whose political elite prefer to represent corporate and self-interest before their own people.

    People are sick of the status quo and government that doesn't work for them. The two biggest parties in the country are arguing over whose health bill is worse when universal health care should be the only option. You couldn't make it up and Washington has got its just deserts for years of poor governance.

    It's a real pity the DNC sidelined Bernie. If they hadn't I don't think we'd be in this mess.

    But let's blame the voters (symptom) and not diagnose the cause as usual.

    In the final analysis, you get the government you vote for. Totally agree with your points about the out-of-touchedness of the 'protected class' (to quote Peggy Noonan, former GWB speechwriter and long-time GOP flack.) Matt Taibbi, in his ongoing coverage of the Trump campaign brought up the 'echo chamber' issues for the Democrats time and again, and beat the drum that Trump could win, and was right. His essays are published in "Insane Clown President" which I highly recommend reading as an analysis of what happened in 2016. America's been lurching towards a Trump presidency for a long time.


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    #7897
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Kitsunegari wrote: »
    That's not really a fair comparison. The narrative from the media was that Trump's fans are idiots. The Democrats decided to focus on Trump's faults rather than the benefits of what Clinton would bring to the table. Trump's fans and opponents of Clinton were demonised in the media; being labelled as misogynists, for not supporting Clinton, and racists for supporting Trump.

    Articles like this go to show just how out-of-touch some of the major political analysts are. They didn't accept that Trump was a potential President and he was wrote off before the race even began. Washington and a lot of the media are more responsible than the people that actually cast a vote for Trump. This is the just deserts for a country whose political elite prefer to represent corporate and self-interest before their own people.

    People are sick of the status quo and government that doesn't work for them. The two biggest parties in the country are arguing over whose health bill is worse when universal health care should be the only option. You couldn't make it up and Washington has got its just deserts for years of poor governance.

    It's a real pity the DNC sidelined Bernie. If they hadn't I don't think we'd be in this mess.

    But let's blame the voters (symptom) and not diagnose the cause as usual.

    It's very fair, if someone decided to start supporting Real Madrid over West Ham because they didn't like West Ham trying to 'buy success' I would consider that idiotic as well.

    Bernie Sanders was not demonised (though if he were we would have dozens of stories about how he molests children in the back of a bagel shop and millions eating it up at will), and Trump was simply reported on. That his comments, history and standpoints were so deplorable was simply a fact. There's a reason one of the most well known ads from the campaign came from the Clinton campaign and was literally just snippets from Trump at his rallies and such.

    The people that voted for Trump are responsible for his presidency, it really is that simple. That is literally exactly how democracy works (and just the same, it is the voters fault that Bernie Sanders was not running against Trump). Especially given how one party wanted universal health care in the first place, while the other fought tooth and nail to stop it at any costs and in the end they had to reach compromise somewhere in the middle... which that same party that did all they could to stop it is now trying to get rid of, which would literally kill their own voters.


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    #7898
    wonderfullife
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,924 ✭✭✭wonderfullife


    It's telling that the go-to defence of Trump by his supporters is always whataboutism. It's also telling that criticising the Washington Post or New York Times is always about how biased they were and how wrong they were in predicting Trump's election defeat.

    Let's just recap what the pundits and pollsters actually predicted: They predicted Clinton would win by 3-4 million votes and would take the Electoral College comfortably.

    Clinton did indeed win by 3 million+ votes. She just lost by narrow margins in 3 states. They were broadly right.

    Also, regarding this particular story - the journalist who broke the Comey Memo story also broke the Clinton e-mail story. Now, whether that's by design or accident, that's the facts here - I assume Comey went to him for this very reason. Even Trey Gowdy said yesterday he can't knock the journalists work because he's a "good journalist".

    Furthermore, anyone who seriously followed the NYT coverage pre-election would have seen that Trump had powerful allies in the NYT, particularly Maggie Haberman, who continually pushed the Clinton e-mail story - even at a time when the Access Hollywood tapes dropped. Go see for yourself, in the days after the tapes, she was pushing Clinton's e-mail saga.

    There is no "Deep State" or journalistic conspiracy to take down Donald Trump.

    Donald Trump is taking down Donald Trump all by himself.

    If he didn't a) potentially collude with Russia b) leak highly classified material to Russia c) ask the FBI Director to call the dogs off Flynn d) then fire the FBI Director AND get his team to lie about why.....

    Then we'd just be discussing a stupid Muslim Ban and a stupid healthcare Bill.

    The fact we're discussing potential impeachment territory is because Trump is Trump. He's lived 70 years on this earth facing almost zero consequences for his actions and he hasn't reconciled the fact there are now big consequences for lying, cheating and corruption.

    Howard Stern was 100% right. Trump doesn't want to be President and doesn't want to change. He'll be delighted when he resigns and goes back to Trump Tower with a guaranteed future Presidential-Pardon in his back pocket.


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    #7899
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Based admittedly on nothing more than reports and my own amatuer phsychology diagnosis, I would be of the opinion that Trump would happily walk away from this now. It was fun to make those 'Elites' eat some humble pie, the WH is kinda cool, and getting people to salute you everywhere you go is a nice touch.

    But it's starting to wear off now. People keep asking questions, and then they expect you to remember what that answer was a few days later! And of course I asked the FBI to stop the investigation, that is what you do isn't it? You reach out to those you are due favours from and ask for a bit of help. But suddenly that isn't allowed. So I can do it when I have no power to actually do it, but give me the power to do it and now I can't use it! I'm given access to all this classified info and yeet can't tell the other world leaders that I have it? I mean what is the point of that?

    The only problem for Trump is his ego. He knows that unlike a normal business venture, where he can sulk off and start afresh tomorrow, leaving now would be a stain forever. So my bet is that he will try to stick it out but his heart isn't in it. Once he gets the tax bill through that will probably be the last thing he actually does.

    The problem is whether Trumps heart not being it results in him effectively turning the WH into a defacto retirement home or whether he decides to hell with it all and tries to exact every possible advantage he can whilst he is there, be that from building things up or tearing them down.


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    #7900
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,453 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    It seems it may snowball to his resigning. GOP won't impeach. But all the Dems have to do is win 24 seats in 2018, which will happen if the present scenario of Trump bungling is left continue.

    Would see the conservatives quite happy with Pence as POTUS. Alt right lose out.

    BTW some people have odd ideas as to what is normal. Remember O'Bama said to Comey on his selection as Head of FBI, that this would be the last time he would speak to him directly.


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    #7901
    Kitsunegari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭Kitsunegari


    vetinari wrote: »
    Why not hold people responsible for who they vote for? That's a strange opinion to have. Hillary was clearly more qualified than Trump. Voting for Trump was clearly going for the unknown dangerous option. You vote for someone like that, you don't get a pass.

    Are you actually being serious? How exactly would you hold them accountable or is this just idealism? Blaming the voters is a lazy analysis.


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    #7902
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,422 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Putin has just jumped in to say that he didn't receive any intelligence from Trump, and Marco Rubio has been quoted as saying he doesn't believe him

    It's actually hilarious.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-putin-idUSKCN18D1EA

    What is putin up to? Trump has already admitted passing intelligence to the russians, now Putin says he didn't get any, and the GOP are forced to choose between Trump admitting to be grossly negligent with the intelligence, or a liar.


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    #7903
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Putin has just jumped in to say that he didn't receive any intelligence from Trump, and Marco Rubio has been quoted as saying he doesn't believe him

    It's actually hilarious.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-putin-idUSKCN18D1EA

    What is putin up to? Trump has already admitted passing intelligence to the russians, now Putin says he didn't get any, and the GOP are forced to choose between Trump admitting to be grossly negligent with the intelligence, or a liar.

    Laughing in the face of how farcical American democracy has become and further stirring the pot to increase suspicion and disorder.

    America is debasing itself. It is not pleasant to witness.


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    #7904
    eire4
    Registered Users Posts: 6,720 ✭✭✭eire4


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    This is very weird. Trump is voted in by voters but it's not their fault that Trump is president. Doesn't compute.

    I get what your saying but there is the fact that he lost the actual vote so the fact he is president is more an indictment of the American system of electing its president. Then there is also the fact that about 46% of Americans did not vote although to be fair a few percentages are probably due to Republican voter suppression efforts like Kobach's infamous crosscheck. So in reality only about 25% of Americans actually voted for Trump as president. But certainly for those 25% of Americans who voted for Trump this whole fiasco is very much on them no doubt about that.


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    #7905
    ScumLord
    Registered Users Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Akrasia wrote: »
    What is putin up to? Trump has already admitted passing intelligence to the russians, now Putin says he didn't get any, and the GOP are forced to choose between Trump admitting to be grossly negligent with the intelligence, or a liar.
    It's just a misunderstanding. Putin said Trump didn't say anything intelligent.


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    #7906
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Kitsunegari wrote: »
    Blaming the voters is a lazy analysis.
    Refusing to accept that anyone who voted for the man who, throughout the primary and general election campaigns made it abundantly clear that he would be the worst president in history by a yuuge margin, is culpable for the state the country now finds itself in is equally lazy analysis.

    Sure, the system is broken and both parties suck. But if you're given a choice between a fairly run-of-the-mill business-as-usual candidate and someone who destroys everything he touches, then you can't act all who-me? when you elect the lunatic and he behaves precisely the way it was always obvious he was going to.

    President Trump is the same person that was on display all through the election. He was a dangerous buffoon then; now he's a dangerous buffoon with the ability to start wars. The difference between then and now is that in the interim, people voted for him. They don't get to say, hey, it's not my fault I couldn't decide between a career politician and a man who is and always was self-evidently unfit for the office.

    I think what we're seeing here is the all-too-familiar pattern of people demanding rights and shirking responsibilities. Every right has a corresponding duty, and the right to elect your government carries the responsibility of thinking carefully about who to elect.

    "Voting for change" is such a stupid cop-out. Change isn't inherently good. If I burn your house down, that's a change.


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    #7907
    mayo.mick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭mayo.mick


    https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/864846090729910273

    Swinford Weather



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    #7908
    mayo.mick
    Registered Users Posts: 2,465 ✭✭✭mayo.mick


    https://twitter.com/christinawilkie/status/864846302793928705

    Swinford Weather



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    #7909
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    mayo.mick wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/864846090729910273

    I think this is mainly theatrics but interesting theatrics. Will Ryan put it to a vote? Will Rs vote in favour if he does? Stay tuned...


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    #7910
    ArmaniJeanss
    Registered Users Posts: 13,428 ✭✭✭✭ArmaniJeanss


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Putin has just jumped in to say that he didn't receive any intelligence from Trump, and Marco Rubio has been quoted as saying he doesn't believe him

    It's actually hilarious.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-putin-idUSKCN18D1EA

    What is putin up to? Trump has already admitted passing intelligence to the russians, now Putin says he didn't get any, and the GOP are forced to choose between Trump admitting to be grossly negligent with the intelligence, or a liar.

    My read of that is Putin is saying nothing was divulged to Lavrov that he (Putin) didn't already know via his own Russian intelligence sources.


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    #7911
    Itssoeasy
    Registered Users Posts: 39,939 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    I see Donald trump has said at a graduation that "no politician in history...has been treated worse or more unfairly."

    Right well I think messrs Kennedy, Lincoln, McKinley, and Garfield might disagree with that claim. Those four men of course were assassinated in office. That might trump (pun not intended) Donald being called out on how his presidency has gone so far.


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    #7912
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,358 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    I see Donald trump has said at a graduation that "no politician in history...has been treated worse or more unfairly."

    Right well I think messrs Kennedy, Lincoln, McKinley, and Garfield might disagree with that claim. Those four men of course were assassinated in office. That might trump (pun not intended) Donald being called out on how his presidency has gone so far.

    https://twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/864883291085824000


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    #7913
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,636 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    To be fair to Trump is absolutely correct in his assertion that "no politician in history....has been treated worse or more unfairly"

    What you have to recall is that Trump history is based purely on his time in politics. History started sometime around November 8th 2016.


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    #7914
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,963 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    To be fair to Trump is absolutely correct in his assertion that "no politician in history....has been treated worse or more unfairly"

    What you have to recall is that Trump history is based purely on his time in politics. History started sometime around November 8th 2016.

    I disagree entirely he is not a politician for one and he has not been treated unfairly. His deeds have been reported on nothing unfair about that.

    Completely ridiculous to want the press to stop reporting the facts


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    #7915
    jooksavage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,532 ✭✭✭jooksavage


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    To be fair to Trump is absolutely correct in his assertion that "no politician in history....has been treated worse or more unfairly"

    What you have to recall is that Trump history is based purely on his time in politics. History started sometime around November 8th 2016.

    That's fair enough. Trump has always demonstrated a tenuous grasp of object permanence.


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    #7916
    Akrasia
    Registered Users Posts: 22,422 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Kitsunegari wrote: »
    That's not really a fair comparison. The narrative from the media was that Trump's fans are idiots. The Democrats decided to focus on Trump's faults rather than the benefits of what Clinton would bring to the table. Trump's fans and opponents of Clinton were demonised in the media; being labelled as misogynists, for not supporting Clinton, and racists for supporting Trump.

    Articles like this go to show just how out-of-touch some of the major political analysts are. They didn't accept that Trump was a potential President and he was wrote off before the race even began. Washington and a lot of the media are more responsible than the people that actually cast a vote for Trump. This is the just deserts for a country whose political elite prefer to represent corporate and self-interest before their own people.

    People are sick of the status quo and government that doesn't work for them. The two biggest parties in the country are arguing over whose health bill is worse when universal health care should be the only option. You couldn't make it up and Washington has got its just deserts for years of poor governance.

    It's a real pity the DNC sidelined Bernie. If they hadn't I don't think we'd be in this mess.

    But let's blame the voters (symptom) and not diagnose the cause as usual.
    Hold on, because the media told everyone that Trump was an awful candidate, that caused Trump to win?

    I agree with you about Bernie, I think he would have hammered Trump, but when the election was down to a two horse race, Clinton was a much better option than Trump. Trump voters are responsible for electing Trump, just like Brexit voters are responsible for Britain leaving the EU.

    If there are people who regret their decision, they should at least be grown up to admit that they screwed up and made a mistake in supporting this buffoon of a man instead of blaming the media or the DNC or anyone else. Use it as a learning experience. They had a choice to make, they chose wrong. The next time they have a choice, they should make it a better one.


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    #7917
    BabyCheeses
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭BabyCheeses


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Personal insults to point score are a revealing insight of a persons character. If you want a list of pros and cons for each candidate ( Trump + HRC ) it might take a while and end up being counter productive. The Clinton cash book is a decent place to start.

    The Clinton's have been involved in dozens of scandals over the last couple of decades. Trump was new and worth a shot for some. So far it hasn't worked out, I'm ok with that.

    It is, hence we knew what to expect of Trump when he came up with names for everyone.

    Ok, Clinton was worse. What now? Why would a person defend Trump and share links from pro-Trump groups to try to explain or distract from everything? The election was over in November, Clinton stopped being relevant long before the inauguration. She wasn't relevant in France or the Netherlands yet Trump supporters still supported the most Trump like candidate there. Trump got the most votes during the primaries. Most Trump voters liked Trump. He has high approval ratings among republicans, they wanted him.

    How has it not worked out? What has Trump managed that has been a surprise and nobody was warned about?


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    #7918
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Akrasia wrote: »
    Hold on, because the media told everyone that Trump was an awful candidate, that caused Trump to win?

    I agree with you about Bernie, I think he would have hammered Trump, but when the election was down to a two horse race, Clinton was a much better option than Trump. Trump voters are responsible for electing Trump, just like Brexit voters are responsible for Britain leaving the EU.

    If there are people who regret their decision, they should at least be grown up to admit that they screwed up and made a mistake in supporting this buffoon of a man instead of blaming the media or the DNC or anyone else. Use it as a learning experience. They had a choice to make, they chose wrong. The next time they have a choice, they should make it a better one.

    I think the last year or so has proven what many have been saying for a long time - the #1 enemy of the far right is personal responsibility and accountability.

    Which is why it's so utterly bizarre they get so hung up over those two exact things.


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    #7919
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 83,092 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Trump decided to import another investigation/scandal into Washington, giving Sheriff David Clarke an assistant secretary for the Department of Homeland Security.

    http://www.mediaite.com/online/controversial-sheriff-david-clarke-reportedly-accepts-homeland-security-position/

    Clarke is under an active investigation in Milwaukee for the death of an inmate in custody, who lost 35 lbs over the course of a week where he was deprived of water and died of dehydration. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/04/25/in-sheriff-david-clarkes-jail-water-kept-from-mentally-ill-inmate-for-7-days-before-he-died-of-dehydration/?utm_term=.a951bf70fbdc

    Trump will act outraged and surprised when that issue lands on his front door and blame the media for trying to cover it.


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    #7920
    Kitsunegari
    Closed Accounts Posts: 314 ✭✭Kitsunegari


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Refusing to accept that anyone who voted for the man who, throughout the primary and general election campaigns made it abundantly clear that he would be the worst president in history by a yuuge margin, is culpable for the state the country now finds itself in is equally lazy analysis.

    Again, with the Strawman argument. I didn't say that voters have no responsibility so you're arguing against yourself on that one
    Sure, the system is broken and both parties suck. But if you're given a choice between a fairly run-of-the-mill business-as-usual candidate and someone who destroys everything he touches, then you can't act all who-me? when you elect the lunatic and he behaves precisely the way it was always obvious he was going to.

    President Trump is the same person that was on display all through the election. He was a dangerous buffoon then; now he's a dangerous buffoon with the ability to start wars. The difference between then and now is that in the interim, people voted for him. They don't get to say, hey, it's not my fault I couldn't decide between a career politician and a man who is and always was self-evidently unfit for the office.

    I think what we're seeing here is the all-too-familiar pattern of people demanding rights and shirking responsibilities. Every right has a corresponding duty, and the right to elect your government carries the responsibility of thinking carefully about who to elect.

    "Voting for change" is such a stupid cop-out. Change isn't inherently good. If I burn your house down, that's a change.


    You're just focusing on one factor; which was a choice between two unlikable candidates, possibly the two worst candidates in American history. Have you ever heard of the backfire effect? You're assuming absolute idealism if you think it's a simple choice between one or the other; it's not.

    Also, the narrative that Trump destroys everything he touches is a bit sensationalist. You can't talk about responsibility when you're being overtly sensationalist yourself.

    How would you make the people that voted for Trump responsible? You need to answer that.


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    #7921
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,963 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Kitsunegari wrote: »

    How would you make the people that voted for Trump responsible? You need to answer that.

    They'll make themselves responsible with the cost of medicine or no healthcare and the no return in jobs and the increase in taxes to help those wealthier than themselves


    So I suppose,that'll teach them


This discussion has been closed.
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