President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

Igotadose

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

It is funny that Trump visits 2 Middle East countries that have done more harm in the region along with America one after the other. Saudi Arabia and Israel on the face of it have little in common. One is on paper a theocratic monarchy and the other is a democracy. Saudi Arabia also hates Israel and funds anti-Israel Sunni groups and is the biggest state sponsor of Islamic terrorism. Yet, Israel (who are quick to act against other threats) turn a blind eye to Saudi Arabian funding of anti-Israel terrorism. Why? Because both are American allies. Israel can hit at these terror groups and blame someone else for funding them. Saudi Arabia's anti-Israel rhetoric from its religious leaders is seldom reported and is kept largely hidden.

Despite the fact that both these countries hate each other, Saudi Arabia and Israel also see their privileged positions as being much richer than their neighbours. The Saudis are an Islamic, Arab and oil heavyweight who have the advantages of having Mecca and Medina on its soil, being the richest Arab state and having the most oil. They like to see such Arab rivals as Iraq in bits. They oppose Persian Shia rival Iran, also a rising power that is peaceful and has potential.

Iran's not peaceful. They're fighting in Syria, have had wars with Iraq and are state sponsors of terrorism. Iran's moderating, slowly, but still is dedicated to exterminating Israel. Iran sponsors Hezbollah, who have had 2 wars with Israel.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

American support for these 2 countries and the current setup has lead to all the problems we know of in the Middle East.

This isn't just recent. Western powers like the UK and France share in this.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Israel on the face of it looks like an ordinary democratic country but of course it is based on emigration from Europe to land that belonged to Arabs.

It's way more nuanced than that. It belongs to the Israelis, per the UN in 1948.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Saudi Arabia on the other hand despite all its friendship with the West remains one of the worst dictatorships on earth with backwards laws not far removed from the war-weary laws of the likes of ISIS and the Taliban both of who are inspired by Saudi Arabia's system. When the Americans talk about democracy in the Middle East, their support for Saudi Arabia and turning a blind eye to the abusive, fascist, repressive regime in it makes such statements a total joke.

Well, Trump duly kissed their rings and curtsey'd to their king, and spewed a bunch of anti-Iranian rhetoric in his future campaign speech (Good vs. Evil...)
In the meantime, the smart people that understand what's going on in the area, are saying ISIS isn't the problem and that the US has it wrong. Let them kill each other is the recommendation, and contain them rather than influence.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172?lo=ap_d1

aloyisious

Kitsunegari wrote: »

Both parties are prone to gerrymandering. The Democrats have done it Massachusetts and Maryland. The GOP have done it in Pennsylvania, North Carolina and Michigan.

Good point on it being an across the board practice.....

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/22/us/politics/supreme-court-north-carolina-congressional-districts.html

mcmoustache

John Brennan testimony (some info pulled from npr)...

Brennan said he is "aware of information and intelligence that revealed contacts and interactions between Russian officials and U.S. persons involved in the Trump campaign." Brennan said that concerned him, "because of known Russian efforts to suborn such individuals," and that it raised questions about whether or not the Russians "were able to gain the cooperation of those individuals." Brennan added he didn't know if "collusion existed" between the Russians and those he identified as involved in the Trump campaign.

Brennan said he's studied Russian intelligence activities over the years, and how they've been able to get people to betray their country. "Frequently, individuals on a treasonous path do not even realize they're on that path until it gets to be too late," he said.

From CBS

Schiff asked Brennan about the Oval Office meeting recently in which Trump reportedly shared classified intelligence with Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Russia's ambassador to the U.S., Sergey Kislyak. Brennan said that if the press reports are accurate, then it appears that the president violated two protocols. First, he said that intelligence is not shared with visiting foreign ministers or local ambassadors; it's shared through intelligence channels to ensure that it's handled correctly. Second, Brennan explained that before sharing classified information with foreign partners, it needs to go back to the originating agency to ensure that the language won't reveal sources or methods.

The former CIA director said that it became "clear" to him last summer that Russia was engaged in an aggressive and wide-ranging effort to interfere in the 2016 election. He said that experts from key agencies had access to information so they could understand the full scope, nature and intentions of the hackers. Brennan said that experts provided updates through the fall.

There's quite a bit to digest and I'm looking forward to seeing the whole exchanges (maybe not the Gowdy bits).

Rjd2

So some of you may have been reading about this seth rich scandal which the usual loons have been pushing, e.g cernovich, Jones, Stone, and most notably Hannity poured gasoline on it the other week.

As someone who dislikes Clinton immensely, its utter bollocks.

Fox have apologised, and before someone claims "the left are blocking justice~!! "

Shapiro wrote a pretty decent article on it for anyone unfamiliar, he is not a leftie:D

https://twitter.com/BraddJaffy/status/867083575132397568

http://www.dailywire.com/news/16773/hannity-still-pushing-seth-rich-conspiracy-murder-ben-shapiro

ThisRegard

Another gaff from the Trump administration, the British government have strongly condemned leaks from the Whitehouse of intelligence shared with them concerning the Manchester bombing, which is obviously the reason why some of the details were coming from US media rather than out of the UK.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/home-secretary-us-intelligence-leaks-amber-rudd-irritating-donald-trump-russia-security-manchester-a7752511.html

Amber Rudd said US conduct had been "irritating" and said she had made clear to her American counterparts that such leaks "shouldn't happen again".

Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme about the US leaks, Ms Rudd said: "The British police have been very clear that they want to control the flow of information in order to protect operational integrity, the element of surprise.

"So it is irritating when it gets released from other sources and I have been very clear with our friends that that should not happen again."

Asked whether US conduct had compromised the investigation into the Manchester Arena attack, she said: "I wouldn’t go that far but I can say they are perfectly clear about the situation and that it shouldn’t happen again."

The Associated Press news agency last week reported an official from an unnamed European country saying that they might stop sharing intelligence with Washington due to leaks, and that continuing to do so “could be a risk for our sources”.

Captain_Crash

I think Melania is just trolling us now...:D:D:D

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rome-melania-refuses-hold-president-trump-hand-article-1.3189303

Leroy42

So the Seth Rich story turns out to be a complete fabrication.

An unscrupulous and demeaning attempt to deflect attention away from Trump and Russia by trying to tie the murder of a young man to wikileaks

Fox came out with some half-arsed apology, Hannity couldn't even bring himself to get that far.

It is clear who the fake news drivers are and top of the list is currently POTUS and not far behind are Fox news.

Billy86

Isn't it interesting that Vikileaks, bastion of transparency that it is, didn't appear do anything to clarify the situation?

Leroy42

Captain_Crash wrote: »

I think Melania is just trolling us now...:D:D:D

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/rome-melania-refuses-hold-president-trump-hand-article-1.3189303

I fail to understand the fasination with Melania, even to the point that I don't even understand why she is on these trips.

She stays in NY, costing the US citizens millions of dollars based on the laughable excuse of school for Barron.

She also appears less than enthusiastic about the job of Flotus. I have no issue with that, but pick one. You can't be Flotus only when it suits you.

The very definition of the job is to support you husband, but she seems more intent of causing issues.

Billy86

Leroy42 wrote: »

I fail to understand the fasination with Melania, even to the point that I don't even understand why she is on these trips.

She stays in NY, costing the US citizens millions of dollars based on the laughable excuse of school for Barron.

She also appears less than enthusiastic about the job of Flotus. I have no issue with that, but pick one. You can't be Flotus only when it suits you.

The very definition of the job is to support you husband, but she seems more intent of causing issues.

What I really, really don't get is the "I feel so sorry for her" talk. She married an old, fat, repulsive, appalling, narcissistic and sociopathic, frankly quite stupid man child with no redeeming qualities whatsoever... except his of course for his wallet and US citizenship. The marriage is what it is and has never been anything more than that.

Akrasia

Leroy42 wrote: »

So the Seth Rich story turns out to be a complete fabrication.

An unscrupulous and demeaning attempt to deflect attention away from Trump and Russia by trying to tie the murder of a young man to wikileaks

Fox came out with some half-arsed apology, Hannity couldn't even bring himself to get that far.

It is clear who the fake news drivers are and top of the list is currently POTUS and not far behind are Fox news.

What's really interesting is that Fox News ratings are plummeting. They've gone from undisputed Kings of cable news to the bottom rated channel. MSNBC are now at the top.

Are the us public finally getting tired of the propaganda?

If Trump is toxic even to Fox, are they gonna turn on him?

Leroy42

Akrasia wrote: »

What's really interesting is that Fox News ratings are plummeting. They've gone from undisputed Kings of cable news to the bottom rated channel. MSNBC are now at the top.

Are the us public finally getting tired of the propaganda?

If Trump is toxic even to Fox, are they gonna turn on him?

I actually think that has more to do with O'Reilly leaving than anything. Also, the 'left' are looking for news to make them feel better about the future. SNL, Seth Myers etc are all seeing increases due to this.

The 'right' won so no point being too engaged at this point. Trump is elected, Obama is gone and HC has been defeated. The numbers will pick up again in 2019.

Peregrinus

Billy86 wrote: »

Isn't it interesting that Vikileaks, bastion of transparency that it is, didn't appear do anything to clarify the situation?

It's entirely predictable. Wikileaks never comments on sources. They never say who their sources are; they never deny that any particular person is their source. They have set up anonymous drop facilities so that you can release stuff to wikileaks without wikileaks knowing who you are.

Professor Moriarty

Peregrinus wrote: »

It's entirely predictable. Wikileaks never comments on sources. They never say who their sources are; they never deny that any particular person is their source. They have set up anonymous drop facilities so that you can release stuff to wikileaks without wikileaks knowing who you are.

What's not to trust?

Billy86

Peregrinus wrote: »

Billy86 wrote: »

Isn't it interesting that Vikileaks, bastion of transparency that it is, didn't appear do anything to clarify the situation?

It's entirely predictable. Wikileaks never comments on sources. They never say who their sources are; they never deny that any particular person is their source. They have set up anonymous drop facilities so that you can release stuff to wikileaks without wikileaks knowing who you are.

A big problem there is how happy they were to hint extremely heavily at him being a source shortly after he was killed...

Leroy42

Wow that is a pretty damning video for Wikileaks.

Far from distancing himself from the story he pretty much claimed that Seth was the source. Even the interviewer spotting this apparent hypocrisy and called him on it.

Billy86

Leroy42 wrote: »

Wow that is a pretty damning video for Wikileaks.

Far from distancing himself from the story he pretty much claimed that Seth was the source. Even the interviewer spotting this apparent hypocrisy and called him on it.

You do have to love the directness of the Dutch at times, compare that with the US and the vast majority in the UK/Ireland where they'd just do a "moving on..." and not even bother to question it.

Zubeneschamali

Billy86 wrote: »

She married an old, fat, repulsive, appalling, narcissistic and sociopathic, frankly quite stupid man child with no redeeming qualities whatsoever... except his of course for his wallet and US citizenship..

Yeah, but this Presidenting stuff was not part of the deal.

Leroy42

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Yeah, but this Presidenting stuff was not part of the deal.

So don't do it. I have no issue with her opting out of it. It is unusual but in this day and age asking the wife to be part of the deal is silly.

However, why then go on the trips? And if she going to go on the trips one would think it would be to support her husband, nay the POTUS.

But instead it seems she wants to be edgy and aloof and not buy into the FLOTUS thing.

As I said previously, pick one. Either go on the trip and be the support or don't bother. This flicking his hand etc is silly nonsense that demeans him.

Zubeneschamali

Leroy42 wrote: »

This flicking his hand etc is silly nonsense that demeans him.

Yes, that is obviously the point.

He is not paying her enough for this sh!t.

demfad

Leroy42 wrote: »

So don't do it. I have no issue with her opting out of it. It is unusual but in this day and age asking the wife to be part of the deal is silly.

However, why then go on the trips? And if she going to go on the trips one would think it would be to support her husband, nay the POTUS.

But instead it seems she wants to be edgy and aloof and not buy into the FLOTUS thing.

As I said previously, pick one. Either go on the trip and be the support or don't bother. This flicking his hand etc is silly nonsense that demeans him.

This man has been accused of molesting many women and girls including a rape of a 13 year old. She could not have realised this criminals monstrosity before marriage. Many women find it hard to get away from 'pillar of the community' types. This guy is the most powerful man in the world.
She is no doubt trying to do right by herself and her son. I would cut her some slack.

Water John

Like Hillary with Bill. I would be loath to read political or public conclusions from peoples personal relationships.

Overheal

Billy86 wrote: »

A big problem there is how happy they were to hint extremely heavily at him being a source shortly after he was killed...

Which is baffling, he did the same in his interview with Hannity: simultaneously boasting the protection of their sources, while giving Seth Rich a posthumous wink and a nudge.

So either two things are happening: he is using Seth Rich's death as a smokescreen to protect bonafide sources, or he is throwing a dead source under the bus. Either possibility is equally tasteless, and I wonder what he's playing at. Surely informants for wikileaks would be less inclined to leak to them knowing that if something should happen to them, Wikileaks may get their families into trouble. I'm bothered he would try to inject himself into the story like that, especially if he's not going to be clear.

ECO_Mental

Overheal wrote: »

Which is baffling, he did the same in his interview with Hannity: simultaneously boasting the protection of their sources, while giving Seth Rich a posthumous wink and a nudge.

So either two things are happening: he is using Seth Rich's death as a smokescreen to protect bonafide sources, or he is throwing a dead source under the bus. Either possibility is equally tasteless, and I wonder what he's playing at. Surely informants for wikileaks would be less inclined to leak to them knowing that if something should happen to them, Wikileaks may get their families into trouble. I'm bothered he would try to inject himself into the story like that, especially if he's not going to be clear.

https://www.google.ie/amp/thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/334983-hannity-loses-advertiser-over-pushing-seth-rich-conspiracy-theory%3Famp

Looks like a company is pulling ads from Hannity. That was the start of the end of ORiely so hopefully it will be the end of Hannity.

Overheal

Excuse my French, but that ****ing piece of **** Donald Trump bragged to the Philippines about exactly how many nuclear subs we operate off the coast of North Korea. The Philippines then leaked the transcript out, so now everyone knows it.

This is not at all okay. His flapping mouth will start a war. The Pentagon is PISSED

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/23/read-the-full-transcript-of-trumps-call-with-philippine-president-rodrigo-duterte/

mallso

anyone else have a bad feeling that the 100 billion dollar arms deal is gonna make it's way to the streets of europe

BuilderPlumber

Igotadose wrote: »

Iran's not peaceful. They're fighting in Syria, have had wars with Iraq and are state sponsors of terrorism. Iran's moderating, slowly, but still is dedicated to exterminating Israel. Iran sponsors Hezbollah, who have had 2 wars with Israel.

In Middle East terms, Iran as in Iran itself is peaceful and relatively normal. The factions Iran supports like Hezbollah are saints compared to the ones Saudi Arabia supports. Iran's views on Israel and Palestine are unconvincing to me. There was never any history between these 2 countries and Iran's leaders surely know full well that Saddam is who the Palestinians supported in that Iran Iraq war. Hating Israel has become a quick way to become popular and be seen as on the side of the downtrodden though and many roll in behind this to make them look good.

This isn't just recent. Western powers like the UK and France share in this.

It's way more nuanced than that. It belongs to the Israelis, per the UN in 1948.

I am fully aware of this. Western powers together with other powers have been involved in all this.

The question of what rightfully belongs in what is currently Israel is not an easy one to answer. The concept of Israel or a Jewish homeland here of course goes back 1000s of years. It is also the land where that religion and Christianity are native to. Islam also has important links to this territory. The Romans, Turks and British were among those who ruled this area and 1948 saw the establishment of a new state for Jews. Mass emigration from Europe to it ensued. It became a vital Western ally to first stave off Soviet supported Arab nationalism and later to stave off new American enemies like Iraq and Islamic extremism.

Nowadays, we get all this talk to 2 state solutions or a more inclusive state. With all this talk of wiping Israel off the map, or from the pages of history, etc., no one is sure what the intention behind the words are. Everyone assumes it means a country wants to bomb it with a nuclear weapon. I think what is meant is a new regime will be set up to replace it.

Everyone it seems wants the current Israel replaced with something else. However, the something else can be radically different depending on who you talk to. Orthodox Jews and Jewish nationalists want a complete Jewish state and want to expand their occupation of territories won in the 6 day war and the like. Hamas seem to want an Islamic Republic of some sort. Yasser Arafat and his successors would want a more secular Arab nationalist state. Most world governments want a two state solution.

Well, Trump duly kissed their rings and curtsey'd to their king, and spewed a bunch of anti-Iranian rhetoric in his future campaign speech (Good vs. Evil...) In the meantime, the smart people that understand what's going on in the area, are saying ISIS isn't the problem and that the US has it wrong. Let them kill each other is the recommendation, and contain them rather than influence.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172?lo=ap_d1

Trump and America in general needs to get real about the threat that Saudi Arabia pose. If they were a country like Cambodia or Afghanistan or Niger, America would have gone to war with them over terrorism years ago. The fact that they are oil rich and we depend way too much on them for oil means that even when Saudi-backed fanatics fly planes into buildings or arrange suicide bombers or shooters on our streets that kill thousands, they are not blamed.

It is blatantly obvious that American/Western policy towards the Arab and Islam worlds has failed. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, the first leader of al Qaeda was Saudi, extremism from North Africa has risen drastically in the post Colonel Gaddafi environment. Iraq has been a mess and haven for extemists ever since Saddam was ousted. America has waged short wars to successfully overthrow regimes but have not been as successful at winning the peace. Yet despite all this every president continues the same old policy.

Leroy42

Overheal wrote: »

Excuse my French, but that ****ing piece of **** Donald Trump bragged to the Philippines about exactly how many nuclear subs we operate off the coast of North Korea. The Philippines then leaked the transcript out, so now everyone knows it.

This is not at all okay. This to me sounds like bulletproof grounds for 25th Ammendment removal from office. His flapping mouth will start a war.

https://theintercept.com/2017/05/23/read-the-full-transcript-of-trumps-call-with-philippine-president-rodrigo-duterte/

Surely when one becomes the POTUS (or PM etc) the civil service takes you aside to give you a crash course in the the expectations and responsibilites of the job.

US currently has an apprentice in the job of POTUS. Its amazing that anybody is prepared to accept a person which such little experience take the job.

Water John

Being an apprentice isn't the biggest problem, it's having no cop on. That's something you cannot teach.

The Pope did not seem to be enthused at meeting the Trumps, or else he wasn't feeling very well.

Overheal

Leroy42 wrote: »

Surely when one becomes the POTUS (or PM etc) the civil service takes you aside to give you a crash course in the the expectations and responsibilites of the job.

US currently has an apprentice in the job of POTUS. Its amazing that anybody is prepared to accept a person which such little experience take the job.

The problem with the transition was pretty well understood and reported on, trump has and did have a very short attention span for such things. Even if they told him this, it went right through his ear-holes. They even have to wordplay with his daily intelligence briefings to mention him in the briefs as often as possible, because reportedly he doesn't keep reading them otherwise.