President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

mcmoustache

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Holy ****......

Russian ambassador told Moscow that Kushner wanted secret communications channel with Kremlin
http://wapo.st/2qsJQk0


"Jared Kushner and Russia’s ambassador to Washington discussed the possibility of setting up a and secure communications channel between Trump’s transition team and the Kremlin, using Russian diplomatic facilities in an apparent move to shield their pre-inauguration discussions from monitoring, according to U.S. officials briefed on intelligence reports.

Ambassador Sergei Kislyak reported to his superiors in Moscow that Kushner, then President-elect Trump’s son-in-law and confidant, made the proposal during a meeting on Dec. 1 or 2 at Trump Tower, according to intercepts of Russian communications that were reviewed by U.S. officials. Kislyak said Kushner suggested using Russian diplomatic facilities in the United States for the communications.

The meeting also was attended by Michael Flynn, Trump’s first national security adviser."

This is starting to look a bit like collusion. I mean, why try to do this and why do so with Russia?

Mr.Micro

mcmoustache wrote: »

This is starting to look a bit like collusion. I mean, why try to do this and why do so with Russia?

Of course the longer all these leaks continue, the more it all becomes background noise. The public will just ignore it.

Kitsunegari

mcmoustache wrote: »

You mean that 4chan hoax /s?

What's becoming obvious here is that the intelligence services and the press are on a mission to bring this administration down. The press wouldn't be able to get this volume of information out without help from the IC.

Becoming obvious? It was obvious before he even entered office. Where have you been?

Sand

mcmoustache wrote: »

You mean that 4chan hoax /s?

What's becoming obvious here is that the intelligence services and the press are on a mission to bring this administration down. The press wouldn't be able to get this volume of information out without help from the IC.

Oh come on. This is not an effective and competent administration that is being sabotaged by the press or secret conspiracies. Its a terrible and incompetent administration sabotaging itself on a *daily* basis for the past 4-5 months. People were warned that Trump was not fit to be President, that he didn't have the capacity or the character.

All that is happening is what was predicted before Trump was elected - he is a terrible human being, likely mentally ill and unfit to hold any public office. Sad!

mcmoustache

Sand wrote: »

Oh come on. This is not an effective and competent administration that is being sabotaged by the press or secret conspiracies. Its a terrible and incompetent administration sabotaging itself on a *daily* basis for the past 4-5 months. People were warned that Trump was not fit to be President, that he didn't have the capacity or the character.

All that is happening is what was predicted before Trump was elected - he is a terrible human being, likely mentally ill and unfit to hold any public office. Sad!

Sorry, that post wasn't too clear. I meant it in the sense of law enforcement being determined to bring down a criminal organisation.

Igotadose

Hmm. Can't walk 700 yards: http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-golf-cart-g7-sicily-2017-5?r=US&IR=T

Changed his speech due to 'exhaustion': http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-islamic-islamist/

Was trumping at Australia due to fatigue: http://www.mediaite.com/online/trump-was-apparently-feeling-some-fatigue-during-contentious-call-with-australia/

And.... healthiest person to ever be president? My guess - heart condition. 70 years old, morbidly obese (various sites guess his weight in the mid-200's), terrible diet, already taking a statin.


Might not have to wait around for the impeachment. He's got health reasons to give up the job.

Memnoch

It might be that this narrative is being built up for exactly this reason. So that the republicans can ease him out on health grounds and he saves face rather than having to be impeached.

Water John

Don't think there is any grand plan. Just flying by the seat of your pants.
The one thing to do if you lack skills is, pick a good team and he didn't do that either.

Christy42

Igotadose wrote: »

Hmm. Can't walk 700 yards: http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-golf-cart-g7-sicily-2017-5?r=US&IR=T

Changed his speech due to 'exhaustion': http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/22/politics/trump-islamic-islamist/

Was trumping at Australia due to fatigue: http://www.mediaite.com/online/trump-was-apparently-feeling-some-fatigue-during-contentious-call-with-australia/

And.... healthiest person to ever be president? My guess - heart condition. 70 years old, morbidly obese (various sites guess his weight in the mid-200's), terrible diet, already taking a statin.


Might not have to wait around for the impeachment. He's got health reasons to give up the job.

Can you imagine the conspiracy theories though. Still his health can't have been good to begin with. He has hardly worked himself to death so far with his various gold trips and others have taken leading roles in all his orders so far.

Quite likely it was something pre existing. Why else would he have required his doctor to lie on the doctor's note (we all know the doctor can't possibly know about the health of all presidents so we know it is at least partially lying).

Kitsunegari

Christy42 wrote: »

Can you imagine the conspiracy theories though. Still his health can't have been good to begin with. He has hardly worked himself to death so far with his various gold trips and others have taken leading roles in all his orders so far.

Quite likely it was something pre existing. Why else would he have required his doctor to lie on the doctor's note (we all know the doctor can't possibly know about the health of all presidents so we know it is at least partially lying).

Look how Obama aged over his 8 year presidency. Trump is overweight so I can only imagine what he'll look like after 4 years never mind 8! He already in terrible shape.

He looked so awkward and was very undiplomatic in his language on his recent foreign trip. You can tell that he's under pressure. He doesn't know what he's gotten himself into.

BoatMad

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Of course the longer all these leaks continue, the more it all becomes background noise. The public will just ignore it.

The evidence is they are not, and the mid-terms of course will be very.. interesting

BoatMad

What's becoming obvious here is that the intelligence services and the press are on a mission to bring this administration down. The press wouldn't be able to get this volume of information out without help from the IC.

what is obvious is the IC and the press both feel there is substantive evidence to support their actions.

no smoke without fire etc

mcmoustache

BoatMad wrote: »

what is obvious is the IC and the press both feel there is substantive evidence to support their actions.

no smoke without fire etc

Certainly. There's unanimous belief within the IC that russia meddled. They're more tight-lipped about the Trump angle but that has to be expected with ongoing investigations. I'd imagine that they have the goods on Trump going back years and are positioning to take him down, and rightfully so.

Call me Al

mcmoustache wrote: »

Certainly. There's unanimous belief within the IC that russia meddled. They're more tight-lipped about the Trump angle but that has to be expected with ongoing investigations. I'd imagine that they have the goods on Trump going back years and are positioning to take him down, and rightfully so.

Well if there is an iota of truth to any of the reports of Russian collusion with this administration, and any of its active participants are in any way compromised, they are a huge national security risk and need to be removed from their positions.
Does the IC have the luxury of time?

Zubeneschamali

Call me Al wrote: »

Does the IC have the luxury of time?

Yes, Trump will be gone in less than 4 years, the IC will be there in 20.

BoatMad

Call me Al wrote: »

Well if there is an iota of truth to any of the reports of Russian collusion with this administration, and any of its active participants are in any way compromised, they are a huge national security risk and need to be removed from their positions.
Does the IC have the luxury of time?

the justice system, quite rightly demands very high levels of proof in these circumstances, least the functioning of democracy be undermined by " trivial" attempts by interest groups.

Hence it takes time and in some cases, sufficient evidence may never be collected.

but making a decision on "an iota of truth " is the actions of a lynch mob, not a justice system

26000 Elephants

BoatMad wrote: »

but making a decision on "an iota of truth " is the actions of a lynch mob, not a justice system

Not make the decision - initiate the investigation.

Christy42

BoatMad wrote: »

The evidence is they are not, and the mid-terms of course will be very.. interesting

I am not sure. His approval ratings dipped after firing Comey but seem to be levelling off at -15%. I mean sure it will mean serious damage in the mid terms but it could well be that anyone who was going to turn against Trump has done so already. I mean if you have stuck with him this far why not keep going.

I wonder if there is a sunk cost issue going on. I mean his supporters supported him against a lot of evidence and against some serious flak. Now it must be an embarrassing climb down (even to admit to themselves) or doubling down and hoping it will work out.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

BoatMad

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Not make the decision - initiate the investigation.

heres the quote

Well if there is an iota of truth to any of the reports of Russian collusion with this administration, and any of its active participants are in any way compromised, they are a huge national security risk and need to be removed from their positions.

hence " iota of truth " ......." removed from their positions "...


Shocking thing the memory of computers

BoatMad

Christy42 wrote: »

I am not sure. His approval ratings dipped after firing Comey but seem to be levelling off at -15%. I mean sure it will mean serious damage in the mid terms but it could well be that anyone who was going to turn against Trump has done so already. I mean if you have stuck with him this far why not keep going.

I wonder if there is a sunk cost issue going on. I mean his supporters supported him against a lot of evidence and against some serious flak. Now it must be an embarrassing climb down (even to admit to themselves) or doubling down and hoping it will work out.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost

naw, the ballot is secret, so yes polls will most likely be artificially supportive, but in the silence of the ballot box, people have no need to fool themselves

Christy42

BoatMad wrote: »

naw, the ballot is secret, so yes polls will most likely be artificially supportive, but in the silence of the ballot box, people have no need to fool themselves

We will see but I reckon filling themselves is more important than the polls. I reckon the polls are accurate.

Billy86

BoatMad wrote: »

naw, the ballot is secret, so yes polls will most likely be artificially supportive, but in the silence of the ballot box, people have no need to fool themselves

You're codding yourself there, to be honest.

BoatMad

Billy86 wrote: »

You're codding yourself there, to be honest.

no, I think Trumps fall from grace will be as fast as his rise. Theres nothing like a voter scorned

There WILL be no wall, 24 million people WILL loose healthcare , He WILL not get the infrastructure budget , There WILL be no muslim travel ban

add that to the Russian smoking gun, the general ineptitude , bumbling and all round craziness

the rats will desert the ship , have no fear

listermint

BoatMad wrote: »

no, I think Trumps fall from grace will be as fast as his rise. Theres nothing like a voter scorned

There WILL be no wall, 24 million people WILL loose healthcare , He WILL not get the infrastructure budget , There WILL be no muslim travel ban

add that to the Russian smoking gun, the general ineptitude , bumbling and all round craziness

the rats will desert the ship , have no fear

You forgot the on going job losses oh and the trillions of of dollars of tax cuts for the top 1%

Billy86

There will be a pretty big shift, but let's not forget that we're talking about a populace happy to vote in a guy who assaulted a journalist and even blame the journalist for being assaulted. I saw an interesting stat the other day - 38% of Democrat voters were for Obama taking action in Syria compared to 37% when Trump did it. By comparison, 22% of Republican voters were in favour of Obama taking action but (if I recall) 86% were in favour when Trump went to do it.

A huge, huge number of Republican voters are fundamentalists, some to religion but moreso to the letter (R). What the letter (R) stands for is utterly irrelevant to them, just that it is the letter (R) which they worship so dearly. If Trump were found guilty of collusion/treason, admitted he did it, and even went as far as to say he was looking to take down the entire US (hypothetcial of course) over 50% of Republican voters would still vote for him again so long as he had an (R) beside his name and the other candidate didn't. I have zero doubt of that.

The battles against gerrymandering and voter disenfranchisement are the most important ones for 2018 and 2020, showing up Trump and the Republicans for what they are is more important for the longer run (and for getting Trump arrested if he is guilty, but no matter who ran in his place those same people would vote for again).

Sam Russell

Merkel saying Europe can no longer rely on their allies - by which she takes USA and UK to be unreliable 'friends'.

Trump unable to confirm his support for the Paris Accord. Trump less than warm regarding Nato. Generally the WH in turmoil and no work done in preparation for the G7 meeting. UK in chaos regarding Brexit, and calling a general election before negotiations. Boris locked in a cellar for the duration.

Oh dear - we live in interesting times.

Leroy42

Whether or not any collusion actually took place, there is no doubt that Trump is doing exactly what Putin would have wihsed for.

He has managed, in his short time in office, to destabilise many of the west institutions. From their own NAFTA, NATO and even going as far as reneging on the Paris Accord.

To turn up to a G7 meeting and have nothing to say on Climate change but to send a tweet out saying you'll have an answer next week, he thinks this makes him look strong but it just shows he hasn't bothered to read up on it. What is going to change this time next wee.

The problem that the west faces, is that like it or not, US can pretty much do whatever and we are reliant on them. Merkel may say its time to move on, but if Germany are against spending 2% on Nato, how much do they think they will have to pay to fund a new ETO? How, if not on the same page of the US, does Europe hope to counter the growing influence of China. How, without the US involved, does Europe think it can get Paris Accord changes in place which, in the short term at least, will cost money to implement and put Europe at a distinct disadvantage in terms of ability to do business against those not burden by the same provisions.

Akrasia

Leroy42 wrote: »

To turn up to a G7 meeting and have nothing to say on Climate change but to send a tweet out saying you'll have an answer next week, he thinks this makes him look strong but it just shows he hasn't bothered to read up on it. What is going to change this time next wee.

Trump has already decided he's pulling out of the Paris agreement. That was obviously gonna happen, But Trump is a man of such poor character, he is such a small, petty little man, that he won't stand in front of his 'peers' and justify his position. Instead he'll pretend he's still deliberating on it, avoid the topic when others might have something valuable to say, and he'll make his announcement via tweet from his armchair in Mar A Lago and then send out his lackeys to justify his decision to the media.

Trump is a pathetic creature when you look at him. He treats his employees and staff appallingly because he is in a position of power over them, but when he has to go toe to toe with someone with power, he falls into half hearted pandering rhetoric to their face, and attacks them as soon as they've left the room.

Water John

Trump mat have had the intention of telling the others that he wasn't going to honour the Paris agreement, but the Pope outplayed him, a few days before, by handing him his letter on climate change as a present.

Leroy42

I totally agree that Trump is a small minded bully. One of the real signs of power is not having to continually reassert it, people just know.

Pushing past the PM, the alpha male handshakes, using a NATO 9/11 memorial speech to chastise the other members of the club. It all comes across as petty. To us. To his base, to the american public, this looks like USA giving 2 fingers back to the liberal Europe elites. These people that seem to want equality, and fairness, and thats not even to mention that most of them don't even believe in the only true saviour.

That is the audience he is talking to and they lap this crap up. Look at Putin. Lots of videos of him horseback riding, being the tough man. It plays out well in a nationalistic arena.

But even after all that, what options does Europe have. IS anybody seriously suggesting that Ireland stops doing business with US if Trump withdraws US from the Paris accord? Is Germany really going to drop out of NATO rather than pony up to 2%?

IMO, Trump has precipitated something that was always likely to happen. Europe has played at being a major power for years, with none of the actual costs of responsibilities that that can entail. It was faced with that recently with the refugees crisis and was found to be utterly ill prepared to take control. It wants to play at being a serious power, whilst at the same time having US do all the heavy lifting. EU citizens need to start to realise that the stability of the last 60/70 years is no longer assured and either we can continue in this makky up alliance or actually join together properly.

Simply hoping that Trump goes away and everything goes back to 'normal' seems to be the current plan.