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President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

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    #9122
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    The same Alex Jones who claims what he does is just performance art, his Inforwars persona just a character he plays and doesn't actually relate to his real self?

    The point was that Alex Jones is not a Russian Bot but was able to trend something as ludicrous as "CNN is ISIS" on the Internet.

    This demonstrates that Russian involvement is not necessary to influence the public opinion.

    In fact, your point that Alex Jones is just a character engaging in performance art actually underlines and strengthens what Hank was saying.


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    #9123
    Really Interested
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭Really Interested


    Ipse dixit wrote: »
    Do people really believe that Russia tampered with votes in the US election? Over 59% of Democrats do. Surely Irish people couldn't be as gullible as that.

    Another pointless political distraction that the media and their masses are focusing on.

    Unless Putin controlled people's votes or tampered with voting then I'm not sure what people actually want to do about it. Could you imagine the US crying to the UN about foreign interference in its own elections?

    If were talking about a misinformation campaign then maybe they could look at their own internal misinformation campaigns rather than complaining about what dirty secrets Russia is unconvering on US politicans.

    Maybe if they all weren't so shady and corporate shills then you wouldn't have the Russians being able to influence US politics.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/05/russia-us-election-hack-voting-system-nsa-report

    "The document reportedly states: “Russian General Staff Main Intelligence Directorate actors … executed cyber espionage operations against a named U.S. company in August 2016, evidently to obtain information on elections-related software and hardware solutions. … The actors likely used data obtained from that operation to … launch a voter registration-themed spear-phishing campaign targeting U.S. local government organizations.”


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    #9124
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,633 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    I think the reason that Russia is seen has having been successfull in its attempt to influence is that Trump played straight into their hands. Trump was more than happy to go along with whatever item he saw that helped his cause, without seeming to care about the veracity.

    That, together with the fact that Trump himself asked Russia to hand over the hacked e-mails and saying they would be rewarded for it obviously creates a problem.

    The recent election in France is a good counterpoint. France expected it and even played with it and was able to, in the main, ignore the less credible sources. Trump actively did down the MSM and so people obviously got their news from other areas, areas that had little or no editorial control.

    You don't need better regulation of the 'net, impossible as that is. What you need is that those in power positions, be that POTUS or the candidates, need to be aware of the power they hold and the effect their actions can have.


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    #9125
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,633 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    NinjaKirby wrote: »
    The point was that Alex Jones is not a Russian Bot but was able to trend something as ludicrous as "CNN is ISIS" on the Internet.

    This demonstrates that Russian involvement is not necessary to influence the public opinion.

    In fact, your point that Alex Jones is just a character engaging in performance art actually underlines and strengthens what Hank was saying.

    Nobody has ever said that only Russia could do it.


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    #9126
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Nothing really, other than he's just a character, apparently, doing such things for the lols.

    Exactly. If some guy with an audience on the internet who is just doing things for the lols can start crazy ideas trending then why do we need to have a far reaching Russian conspiracy to influence elections?

    You can find plenty of examples of people on 4chan and Reddit etc organizing to achieve some good and some bad (OK, probably mostly bad) goals.

    The problem is that people are focusing on this idea that false narratives are being spun online by Russian Trolls but it ignores the fact that almost anyone with enough time and motivation and possibly money can do the exact same thing.

    It becomes a blindspot when your only perspective is that those pesky Russians are doing it.


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    #9127
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    NinjaKirby wrote: »
    The methods absolutely are relevant.

    The fake information is being circulated on the Internet.

    The Internet is not part of America and America does not own the Internet.

    So if a foreign power is using hardware and software in their country to place information on the shared space that is the Internet there has to be a question of the exact nature of any influence.

    It's not like thugs funded by the Russian government are stalking the streets of LA or New York and intimidating people into voting a particular way. It's not like Putin is giving money to American TV, radio and newspaper outlets to undermine the election. If anything, the domestic American media was strongly anti-Trump.

    The Internet is not America.

    We are talking about a situation where Russia could be creating propaganda and putting it out there online but it's not even on the level of putting flyers through peoples doors or dropping propaganda leaflets from aircraft.

    The American voter has to switch on their computer and log in and go and find the information themselves. Then with the same device they used to find this misinformation they are absolving themselves of any obligation to fact check. Then they have to take it upon themselves to share what they have found online.

    The methods are relevant because there is a bit of a cop out going on here where the losing side are able to just blame their failure on internet trolls and I don't think they should be allowed to do that.

    I think buying into this is probably a step towards tighter government regulation of the Internet.
    The fake information is not confined to trolls or bots. Even the US President is spouting fake information on the internet.

    You seem to be absolving people of the need to fact check and inform themselves and instead blame the medium that's being used. Bull**** is bull****, wherever it's found.

    The sinister element is not the Russian trolls and bots. It's the attempts by a foreign givernment to illegally infiltrate election systems and hack private servers. Whether it was effective or not is never going to be known, but whether it happened or not, should be investigated and exposed.


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    #9128
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,633 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    NinjaKirby wrote: »
    Exactly. If some guy with an audience on the internet who is just doing things for the lols can start crazy ideas trending then why do we need to have a far reaching Russian conspiracy to influence elections?

    You can find plenty of examples of people on 4chan and Reddit etc organizing to achieve some good and some bad (OK, probably mostly bad) goals.

    The problem is that people are focusing on this idea that false narratives are being spun online by Russian Trolls but it ignores the fact that almost anyone with enough time and motivation and possibly money can do the exact same thing.

    It becomes a blindspot when your only perspective is that those pesky Russians are doing it.

    Not at all, people are well aware of the influence that Jones etc can have.

    But Trump is not seemingly bending over backwards to help Jones. He has not talked negatively about former allies whilst never saying anything negative about Russia.
    Trump is not surrounded by people who have lied, repeatedly, about meeting Jones.


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    #9129
    mcmoustache
    Registered Users Posts: 7,236 ✭✭✭mcmoustache


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Twist and turn, I never said it was the same thing.

    I love the use of "we" on this forum. It's almost like there's an agenda.

    Yeah, that must be it.

    It couldn't possibly have anything to do with disliking a lying conman holding the highest office in the world after an election in which Russians interfered while the administration behaves like the Russians would want them to behave.


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    #9130
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    The fake information is not confined to trolls or bots. Even the US President is spouting fake information on the internet.

    You seem to be absolving people of the need to fact check and inform themselves and instead blame the medium that's being used. Bull**** is bull****, wherever it's found.

    The sinister element is not the Russian trolls and bots. It's the attempts by a foreign givernment to illegally infiltrate election systems and hack private servers. Whether it was effective or not is never going to be known, but whether it happened or not, should be investigated and exposed.

    So you say "the methods are irrelevant". Your words.

    I said that the methods are absolutely relevant and explained why I think so.

    You then said that trolls and bots are not sinister but that illegal hacking needs to be investigated and exposed.

    So you are basically doing a 180 and admitting that the methods are relevant.

    If the method is just spinning false narratives online then I think America does not own the internet and anything goes.

    If the method is illegal hacking of private servers and theft of private information then I think it needs to be investigated and exposed.

    So the methods are very relevant.


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    #9131
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    Yeah, that must be it.

    It couldn't possibly have anything to do with disliking a lying conman holding the highest office in the world after an election in which Russians interfered while the administration behaves like the Russians would want them to behave.

    What has Trump done that's illegal? He won the election and this partisan entitlement that's he's not legitimate is ridiculous. He's messed up badly so far but constant hot air about Russia isn't going to change anything. Even Democrats as of two days ago are still saying there's no evidence of collusion.


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    #9132
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    mcmoustache wrote: »
    Yeah, that must be it.

    It couldn't possibly have anything to do with disliking a lying conman holding the highest office in the world after an election in which Russians interfered while the administration behaves like the Russians would want them to behave.

    Serious question for you.

    Do you think that Trump would have won the election without Russian interference?


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    #9133
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Christy42 wrote: »
    Someone who supports Trump is not necessarily a Russian bot.

    And yet if you think he's an idiot, you're instantly labelled a left wing P.C. liberal.


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    #9134
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,946 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    What has Trump done that's illegal? He won the election and this partisan entitlement that's he's not legitimate is ridiculous. He's messed up badly so far but constant hot air about Russia isn't going to change anything. Even Democrats as of two days ago are still saying there's no evidence of collusion.

    Its this sort of stuff that you keep circling back on that annoys me the most.

    The consistent denial of Trumps team in any collusion with Russia and its agents when there is a litany of evidence to counter this claim is not fun anymore.

    I am waiting for the day when a subpoenais served on his staff and close assistants maybe at that point an apology for the indifference to the multitude of meetings with Russians of all levels and the money he owes personally to the Russian Banks will come true.


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    #9135
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    mcmoustache wrote: »
    Yeah, that must be it.

    It couldn't possibly have anything to do with disliking a lying conman holding the highest office in the world after an election in which Russians interfered while the administration behaves like the Russians would want them to behave.

    What has Trump done that's illegal? He won the election and this partisan entitlement that's he's not legitimate is ridiculous. He's messed up badly so far but constant hot air about Russia isn't going to change anything. Even Democrats as of two days ago are still saying there's no evidence of collusion.
    where I the post that you quoted did it say Trump has done anything illegal?


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    #9136
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    NinjaKirby wrote: »

    In fact, your point that Alex Jones is just a character engaging in performance art actually underlines and strengthens what Hank was saying.

    I wasn't trying to undermine his point.


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    #9137
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,633 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    What has Trump done that's illegal? He won the election and this partisan entitlement that's he's not legitimate is ridiculous. He's messed up badly so far but constant hot air about Russia isn't going to change anything. Even Democrats as of two days ago are still saying there's no evidence of collusion.

    Nobody has said he is not legitimate, nobody has claimed, well apart from Trump, that the election was rigged.

    What has he done that is illegal? Well that is exactly what people are trying to work our. People like the FBI, House and Senate.

    The problem is that Trump and his team seem intent on stalling or slowing down the investigations. They either have lied, tried to pressurise those working on it, or taking the media to task to paint the whole thing as a conspiracy.

    Trump has the power to clear all this pretty quickly. Produce the tax returns to cut off the legs of those that espouse the in-debt theory.

    Divest properly from the family business so that no conflict of interest can be labelled. Remove his family from the staff to remove the suspicion that it is a family takeover.

    Produce the tapes from the meetings with Comey and the Russians to prove his version of events. Give full and proper explanations on why he continues to defend Flynn, why is doesn't see a problem with Sessions or Kushner having lied in terms of meetings with Russia.

    The common theme is that Trump could, if not completely clear himself (as they will always be those than will ignore evidence) but reduce the level of noise around him.

    Trump knows this but has decided not to be open and transparent, choosing instead to attack those that raise questions. He continues to say that the whole Russia thing is deflecting from him achieving MAGA. So one can only assume that he sees the frustrations but has decided to do nothing to alliviate them. The question then is why would he leave the situation as it is when he could clear up it?


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    #9138
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    listermint wrote: »
    Its this sort of stuff that you keep circling back on that annoys me the most.

    Manafort, Page, Stone have all volunteered to testify and talk to the house committee. They've handed over requested documents too.

    Aren't they the ones the papers have been talking about for the last 7 or 8 months?


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    #9139
    NinjaKirby
    Closed Accounts Posts: 221 ✭✭NinjaKirby


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    And yet if you think he's an idiot, you're instantly labelled a left wing P.C. liberal.

    Yes, by the hardcore Trump supporters and/or trolls (sometimes I can't tell the difference).

    I think he's an idiot who should never have been anywhere near a presidential election and have never been labelled for that opinion. The truth is that most people seem to agree that Trump is a clown.

    If anything, I feel like people give me grief because I don't hate Trump enough.


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    #9140
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    NinjaKirby wrote: »
    So you say "the methods are irrelevant". Your words.

    I said that the methods are absolutely relevant and explained why I think so.

    You then said that trolls and bots are not sinister but that illegal hacking needs to be investigated and exposed.

    So you are basically doing a 180 and admitting that the methods are relevant.

    If the method is just spinning false narratives online then I think America does not own the internet and anything goes.

    If the method is illegal hacking of private servers and theft of private information then I think it needs to be investigated and exposed.

    So the methods are very relevant.
    I suppose I should have said 'more sinister'. I did explain why trolls and bots are less so since (and you seem to agree with this) I pointed out that fact-checking ability is available to everybody and as you say, it requires further dissemination for the propaganda to be spread.

    btw, I used the word 'irrelevant' in response to a particular post and in reference to the legality of such bot activity. It is definitely sinister for a foreign power to orchestrate such activity in order to attempt to influence an election. It is far more sinister for that same power to use illegal methods to achieve the same ends.


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    #9141
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,946 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Manafort, Page, Stone have all volunteered to testify and talk to the house committee. They've handed over requested documents too.

    Aren't they the ones the papers have been talking about for the last 7 or 8 months?

    Everyone is going to Jail, The summer will be a fun time. I expect back tracking all over the place.


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    #9142
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    listermint wrote: »
    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Manafort, Page, Stone have all volunteered to testify and talk to the house committee. They've handed over requested documents too.

    Aren't they the ones the papers have been talking about for the last 7 or 8 months?

    Everyone is going to Jail, The summer will be a fun time. I expect back tracking all over the place.
    If they do get found guilty, it's going to be a lot, lot later than this summer to be honest.


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    #9143
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    listermint wrote: »
    Everyone is going to Jail, The summer will be a fun time. I expect back tracking all over the place.

    Let's hope they can prove intent this time so.


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    #9144
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    Trump has had his morning episode of textual diarrhoea.


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    #9145
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    Billy86 wrote: »
    If they do get found guilty, it's going to be a lot, lot later than this summer to be honest.

    Could you give an example of collusion, did they ring up the Russians and ask them to hack the DNC? I don't even know what the word means anymore.


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    #9146
    Leroy42
    Registered Users Posts: 15,633 ✭✭✭✭Leroy42


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Could you give an example of collusion, did they ring up the Russians and ask them to hack the DNC? I don't even know what the word means anymore.

    No, Trump just said it from the podium. Saved on the phone bill.

    Winning


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    #9147
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    Trump has had his morning episode of textual diarrhoea.

    Indeed :pac:

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/872064426568036353


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    #9148
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    Leroy42 wrote: »
    No, Trump just said it from the podium. Saved on the phone bill.

    Winning

    Gonna need more than a joke to convict someone.


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    #9149
    Billy86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,495 ✭✭✭✭Billy86


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Billy86 wrote: »
    If they do get found guilty, it's going to be a lot, lot later than this summer to be honest.

    Could you give an example of collusion, did they ring up the Russians and ask them to hack the DNC? I don't even know what the word means anymore.
    We'll likely find out in due time, just as we keep finding out about more and more contacts between the trump campaign/administration despite repeated Adam adamant denials and lies that there was any contact between them for months on end. In fact, I think I remember you claiming there were no examples of such only a few months ago.

    And then today we have the leak that Russia did actually try to hack the election systems themselves (something I thought they'd have been astute enough to stay away from, given it was far too direct and reckless) and it being validated by the leaker being arrested. Any thoughts on that?


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    #9150
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    Billy86 wrote: »
    We'll likely find out in due time, just as we keep finding out about more and more contacts between the trump campaign/administration despite repeated Adam adamant denials and lies that there was any contact between them for months on end. In fact, I think I remember you claiming there were no examples of such only a few months ago.

    And then today we have the leak that Russia did actually try to hack the election systems themselves (something I thought they'd have been astute enough to stay away from, given it was far too direct and reckless) and it being validated by the leaker being arrested. Any thoughts on that?

    Old news. There's been sworn testimonies about it, but none effected the outcome of the election.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/russians-hacked-two-u-s-voter-databases-say-officials-n639551

    I don't remember ever saying people never talked to Russians, that's not a crime.


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    #9151
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users Posts: 7,762 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Old news. There's been sworn testimonies about it, but none effected the outcome of the election.

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/russians-hacked-two-u-s-voter-databases-say-officials-n639551

    I don't remember ever saying people never talked to Russians, that's not a crime.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I understood the recent leaks to be about hacking of the election software systems and the above to be of voter databases.

    Are they not different and separate systems?


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