President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

Leroy42

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I am not sure what Comey is all about. Trump is not worried about him, that is for sure. If Comey has anything on Trump he needs to man up and say it. Up to now it's all posturing and hot air. What is his game, maybe just attention seeking?

You don't think anything Comey said yesterday was damaging to POTUS?

Really? Just the mere fact that he said it, I mean he openly called POTUS a liar. That message goes around the world. Whatever about domestically, Trump is seriously damaged by the events of yesterday (of course it is only due to the fact that he already had seriously damaged himself).

It could all be attention seeking, it could all be payback for getting fired. It is not unheard of for fired employees to take revenge on ex bosses. That certainly cannot be ruled out.

Unfortunately for Trump, much of what Comey says rings true. It is telling that neither Trump or the GOP is denying anything, rather they are attacking Comey or using the line you used that little was actually done to harm Trump yesterday.

They have decided to opt to focus on Comey being a leaker, clearly attacking the messenger not the message. So whilst it could be simply Comey looking for attention, it certainly doesn't look that way

NinjaKirby

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Nope. But you can if you want.

Having made a clear argument, I'm asking you if you believe that the middle ground will be affected by Comey's testimony? If not, why not?

Look, rather than deflecting, feel free to just say you don't want to engage with the points I've made. It would be more honest.

By "middle ground" do you just mean people who would be undecided either way, or neutral observers?

I can take a stab at an answer, if that's OK.

I think that Comey's testimony was built up as something that would be absolutely shockingly damning and would be the end of Trump as President.

In reality though it was kind of "meh". I didn't feel that much of any great value was said and that the whole thing didn't really live up to expectations.

This seems to happen with Trump. There is a hint of scandal and everyone builds it up and gets very excited that this is the end for him. Then the story comes out at it isn't quite as explosive as we first thought.

I can already imagine posters replying with "what the hell do you mean it wasn't damning, it was , it was, it so totally was damning" but that's just becoming predictable and boring too. Some people are demanding outrage one way or another depending on their bias but for the middle it's just tiring if there is no real action.

I think this does affect the middle ground in that it desensitizes them to the idea of a massive scandal brewing.

I feel like I'm always being told that there is something massive coming down the line that will put an end to Trump's presidency and he'll be gone within a month, no 2 months, maybe 3 months, he won't last the year, he won't be reelected in 2020. Then it just kind of falls flat.

I thought Comey's testimony was very tame and not as explosive as I would have hoped. I was promised fireworks! I had my popcorn at the ready but it was an anti-climax.

It feels like one of those "boy who cried wolf" things now. If Trump is going to be kicked out then it has to happen sooner rather than later or else he comes into 2020 looking like the plucky underdog again.

Call me Al

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I am not sure what Comey is all about. Trump is not worried about him, that is for sure. If Comey has anything on Trump he needs to man up and say it. Up to now it's all posturing and hot air. What is his game, maybe just attention seeking?

I think people forget that there is a whole other classified part to this story that we aren't hearing. If what you witnessed yesterday from Comey was all there was to this Russia case and investigation then it would have shut down long ago.
But it isn't, hence Comey's refusal to answer certain questions, and his urgency to release the memo to ensure evidence wasn't closed out (hoping a special prosecutor was put in place), the investigation shut down, and a narrative of lies (as Comey himself said) pushed to the forefront.

It remains to be seen if the full details ever see the light of day but my opinion is that this whole investigation goes much deeper than just this Trump administration, and this could drag on for a couple more years.

oscarBravo

NinjaKirby wrote: »

I thought Comey's testimony was very tame and not as explosive as I would have hoped. I was promised fireworks! I had my popcorn at the ready but it was an anti-climax.

The former Director of the FBI testified before Congress that the President asked the Attorney General to leave the room before putting pressure on said former Director to drop an active investigation into his disgraced former National Security Advisor.

If that was an anti-climax, I'm at a loss as to exactly what you were expecting.

listermint

Can anyone say 'Special Prosecutor'


This is going to be a super interesting summer.





</that is all>

NinjaKirby

oscarBravo wrote: »

The former Director of the FBI testified before Congress that the President asked the Attorney General to leave the room before putting pressure on said former Director to drop an active investigation into his disgraced former National Security Advisor.

If that was an anti-climax, I'm at a loss as to exactly what you were expecting.

I don't know. Something with a bit more substance?

The question I was answering was how this would affect people in the middle ground.

Your response to me though really adds nothing to that and doesn't really explain to me how my opinion on how this affects the middle ground was wrong.

I think there is a big build up over these things and then it comes to nothing. If people are not quite as interested in politics or not quite invested in one side or the other then they might just become very indifferent to the constant hysteria over Trumps imminent impeachment followed by that impeachment not materializing.

You could respond that people in the middle need to be more patient or maybe say that they are too dumb to know that it's serious.

Feels like you are saying to me that this really is much more of a big deal than I think it is. I already said that this is a predictable and boring response.

It's tiring to constantly have this big build up to nothing and then have people demand that you care more.

Leroy42

I agree that the build up to these things is always too much. People want everything to happen now, the big closing scene. With Netflix et al, we can watch a whole series in one sitting, no waiting around for weeks to get to the end.

But it was a hearing. People seem to expect these events to play out like the scene from A Few Good Men. Were you expecting Trump to come in crying and admitting to everything, and he woulda got away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky Feds! All the people involved need to be careful not to say the wrong thing, to stick to the rules, to avoid getting caught out. This is how these things work.

But things don't work like that. Don't confuse the difference between important and impressive.

What happened yesterday was very important.

aloyisious

Hank Scorpio wrote: »

I think it's a perfectly understandable explanation for firing him, he refused to publicly state Trump wasn't under investigation. He refused to investigate leakers. Meanwhile there's leaks (many of which turn out to be rubbish) in the media every day undermining him. Impossible situation, it makes sense to me.

Second bit, I'm not sure either but my gut tells me he didn't.

I don't know anything about the part from refuse to investigate leaks onwards but any cop worth his salt would and could not give any guarantee that so and so is not under investigation, regardless of who the O/P is. The cop could tell the O/P, and his lawyer, that at that moment in time he/she was not under investigation , with the rider that the investigation is ongoing... Comey said it all in his testimony yesterday; during investigations stones are overturned while not knowing what lay under them.

It seem's to me that Don was asking for a guarantee from Comey and it was not possible to give it, despite the working relationship between them.

Even if Don is totally innocent of any misdemeanours, the office has that old aphorism attached to it: the buck stops here...

aloyisious

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I am not sure what Comey is all about. Trump is not worried about him, that is for sure. If Comey has anything on Trump he needs to man up and say it. Up to now it's all posturing and hot air. What is his game, maybe just attention seeking?

He has to be careful on what he says, both for his own future and for the effect of any legally committed statement he makes about his president. He's making sure he ain't pursued for perjury, slander [verbal statement] or libel [written statement] by any person/s under investigation in the various cases.

Water John

Comey got what he wanted, a special prosecutor.
The public testimony was less important. That's including his verification that Trump isolated him and asked him to let it go, on Flynn.
That a number of times he tied Comey's continuation is his position to satisfactory outcomes for Trump.
Thirdly, Comey publicly said Trump was a liar and not to be trusted.

Just a few minor issues.

Mr.Micro

aloyisious wrote: »

He has to be careful on what he says, both for his own future and for the effect of any legally committed statement he makes about his president. He's making sure he ain't pursued for perjury, slander [verbal statement] or libel [written statement] by any person/s under investigation in the various cases.

Yes, but Trump has no holds barred. If Comey is a man of integrity, and we all know Trump has none, his reputation is bring destroyed by Trump. The whole protocol of behaviour has been rewritten by the Trump camp. Covey needs to come out fighting. He surely must know stuff, ex FBI and all that?

Water John

Missing the point of what Comey is about, Micro.
Comey simply put his point into the public record. He also by targetting Lynch made clear he was nonpartisan.

Mr.Micro

Water John wrote: »

Missing the point of what Comey is about, Micro.
Comey simply put his point into the public record. He also by targetting Lynch made clear he was nonpartisan.

Yes I know it's a long game, but to be insulted on Twitter by the US President daily. He is clearly very patient.

Water John

Some people, don't follow twitter that much.

aloyisious

Water John wrote: »

Comey got what he wanted, a special prosecutor.
The public testimony was less important. That's including his verification that Trump isolated him and asked him to let it go, on Flynn.
That a number of times he tied Comey's continuation is his position to satisfactory outcomes for Trump.
Thirdly, Comey publicly said Trump was a liar and not to be trusted.

Just a few minor issues.

Which, AFAIK, not incidentally protects the FBI from hassle by anyone on the investigation. Thats one meeting Don can't lie about, unless he expects his AG and son-in-law to perjure themselves about.

CMOTDibbler

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes I know it's a long game, but to be insulted on Twitter by the US President daily. He is clearly very patient.

He had to take the comments about his leadership of the FBI and the morale therein lying down as well.

Some of that he corrected yesterday, the rest will come in time no doubt.

oscarBravo

NinjaKirby wrote: »

I think there is a big build up over these things and then it comes to nothing.

You're half right. There is a big buildup, then it comes to something. That it doesn't come to whatever you allowed yourself to be led to believe it would doesn't change the facts.

Clear your mind. Forget the hype. Start with an open mind, and realise this:

The former FBI Director testified under oath to Congress that he was fired by a President who had tried to pressure him into obstructing justice.

Now, I don't know just how overhyped you had allowed your expectations to become, but that right there is fcuking HUGE. Heads of state in civilised countries have resigned in disgrace over much less.

InTheTrees

oscarBravo wrote: »

NinjaKirby wrote: »

I thought Comey's testimony was very tame and not as explosive as I would have hoped. I was promised fireworks! I had my popcorn at the ready but it was an anti-climax.

The former Director of the FBI testified before Congress that the President asked the Attorney General to leave the room before putting pressure on said former Director to drop an active investigation into his disgraced former National Security Advisor.

If that was an anti-climax, I'm at a loss as to exactly what you were expecting.

It's worth remembering Nixon resigned for just having a conversation about doing what trump actually did do. (obstructing justice).
The only reason that trump is not being impeached is that Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, the leaders in congress, are basically spineless.

listermint

InTheTrees wrote: »

It's worth remembering Nixon resigned for just having a conversation about doing what trump actually did do. (obstructing justice).
The only reason that trump is not being impeached is that Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, the leaders in congress, are basically spineless.

They have their own nefarious motives.

NinjaKirby

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're half right. There is a big buildup, then it comes to something. That it doesn't come to whatever you allowed yourself to be led to believe it would doesn't change the facts.

Clear your mind. Forget the hype. Start with an open mind, and realise this:

The former FBI Director testified under oath to Congress that he was fired by a President who had tried to pressure him into obstructing justice.

Now, I don't know just how overhyped you had allowed your expectations to become, but that right there is fcuking HUGE. Heads of state in civilised countries have resigned in disgrace over much less.

It's not so much me specifically as I'm not an American voter and so it really makes no difference to me one way or the other.

I feel like a lot of the American political system does revolve around hype and spectacle (maybe one of the reasons they have a celebrity, reality TV, president now) and it's not exactly good for people who are genuinely interested in politics.

Between Trump and Clinton your are talking about 129 million voters. How many of those are really up to speed and how many are voting based on shallow knowledge?

How many of Trumps 63 million are really hardcore Trump supporters and could really competently fight his corner in a political discussion? I feel like it's not that many. So he is getting supporters and voters based on more superficial factors.

Professor Moriarty is asking if the middle ground is being affected by this testimony and I guess I am wondering if, perhaps worryingly, they are not affected all that much due to how the politics of the USA are portrayed as being so cinematic.

So you have this big big build up and then... nothing. Or at least what people perceive as nothing and it takes away the idea that something big is happening or that the president has done something bad.

Are people less aware politically now then they were when Nixon resigned? I think maybe. A lot of online politics gets warped in weird and strange ways. Comparing Trump to Hitler was a widespread thing and that seems a bit crazy to me. Mad stuff like Pepe the frog and Shadilay and 4chan. What's going on there?

So what are people in the middle really thinking?

This is why I've said before that I find the whole thing to be absurd or hilarious because you have all these characters having all these arguments and it kind of convinces people who aren't big into politics that the big Hollywood moment is just around the corner when it really isn't.

It's kind of deflating when it doesn't all kick off after all the big bold build up.

Reading the forum here on boards or checking stuff online is like watching the trailer for a movie that promises to be full of action and twists and turns. Then the reality is just "meh". Definitely I think the apathy could see Trump sticking around unless the Democrats get themselves together.

aloyisious

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Yes, but Trump has no holds barred. If Comey is a man of integrity, and we all know Trump has none, his reputation is bring destroyed by Trump. The whole protocol of behaviour has been rewritten by the Trump camp. Covey needs to come out fighting. He surely must know stuff, ex FBI and all that?

He's probably waiting for an invite from the Special Counsel, letting the suspects sweat. :-)

NinjaKirby

oscarBravo wrote: »

You're half right. There is a big buildup, then it comes to something. That it doesn't come to whatever you allowed yourself to be led to believe it would doesn't change the facts.

Clear your mind. Forget the hype. Start with an open mind, and realise this:

The former FBI Director testified under oath to Congress that he was fired by a President who had tried to pressure him into obstructing justice.

Now, I don't know just how overhyped you had allowed your expectations to become, but that right there is fcuking HUGE. Heads of state in civilised countries have resigned in disgrace over much less.

Just to quickly clear up here.

I am saying that the middle ground might not be as affected by this as one might hope.

I am saying this in response to Professor Moriarty's question. Not to defend Trump or to say that this stuff isn't a big deal.

Just to say that maybe plenty people feel it's a bit "meh" and not a big deal and to explain why I think that might be.

rossie1977

McConnell's wife is on Trump's own cabinet and he himself spent the last decade blocking Obama at every turn. He will never go against Trump no matter what happens.

Ryan is at least a little more reasonable (not that that would be difficult) but he too is highly unlikely to vote against Trump because it would be career suicide for him given the hardcore Republican base favour Trump far more than they favour Paul Ryan. Also Ryan's entire last 7 years, his only focus it seems was trying to get rid of the ACA, something that his current boss has a shared interest.

Trump won't be going anywhere until January 2019 at the earliest because neither the House or Senate will do a thing as long as there is a Republican majority.

demfad

Takeaways from Comey:

- No doubt about Russian Interference in election now.

-Trump lied about FBI/Comey

-Trump directed him to drop Flynn case. Dont see how Mueller could view otherwise.

-Meetings documented for fear Trump would lie about their nature

-Cant answer questions about Steele dossier as that would jeopardise investigation.

-Aware of other facts he cant disclose re Sessions that would make his continued engagement in investigation problematic.

-When asked if he believed Trump colluded with Russia
'Thats a question I dont thing I should answer in an open session' Translation: It is classified and the answer is yes.

oscarBravo

NinjaKirby wrote: »

Just to quickly clear up here.

I am saying that the middle ground might not be as affected by this as one might hope.

I am saying this in response to Professor Moriarty's question. Not to defend Trump or to say that this stuff isn't a big deal.

Just to say that maybe plenty people feel it's a bit "meh" and not a big deal and to explain why I think that might be.

That's all fair enough, as far as it goes. But I don't think it's enough to understand why people feel that current affairs are 'a bit "meh"'; I think it's important to try to jar people out of the ridiculous reality-TV complacency they've cheerfully allowed themselves to be lulled into, and realise that this is frigging huge!

So, in the same way that I can understand why some people think that the world is less than ten thousand years old, or that climate change isn't a big deal, that doesn't make it OK for those people to think those things, because they're objectively wrong.

Sure, lots of people thought that Comey's testimony wasn't a big deal, but they're wrong. And, particularly if they are wrong Americans, they need to get a grip, and pronto.

One other point I want to make:

NinjaKirby wrote: »

Comparing Trump to Hitler was a widespread thing and that seems a bit crazy to me.

Does it seem crazy to you because you've carefully evaluated the comparisons and found them wanting? Or because you see "Trump" and "Hitler" in the same sentence, immediately shout "Godwin!" and stop thinking?

The comparisons between Trump and Hitler have, for the most part, been sparingly and carefully made. One talks of the "dishonest media"; the other of "Lügenpresse". Both came to power largely on the strength of scapegoating identifiable out-groups.

Read Timothy Snyder's excellent On Tyranny if you want to see the comparisons between the rise of authoritarianism in the early 20th century and today's political trends laid out clearly. But don't dismiss well-made arguments because they seem "a bit crazy" to you; dismiss them if you must after you've studied them in detail and decided that they don't add up.

I know I'm asking that people put a lot more thought (and, heaven forfend, reading) into their understanding of politics than they currently do. But democracy is an incredible privilege, and I don't think it's a lot to ask that people put a hint of effort into it.

mcmoustache

rossie1977 wrote: »

Trump won't be going anywhere until January 2019 at the earliest because neither the House or Senate will do a thing as long as there is a Republican majority.

They won't impeach unless they feel that their jobs are on the line.

Trump's popularity is going in one direction and neither he nor his team look capable of reversing that.

There'll come a point when his approval rating gets so low that continuing to back him will lead to a thrashing. At this rate that could easily happen with the House in 2018. If Republicans decide that Trump will lose them their seats, they'll throw him under the bus. They'll probably ask him to step aside but if he refuses, they'll need to find a way to turn his base against him and prepare impeachment.

Ipse dixit

demfad wrote: »

Takeaways from Comey:

- No doubt about Russian Interference in election now.

-Trump lied about FBI/Comey

-Trump directed him to drop Flynn case. Dont see how Mueller could view otherwise.

-Meetings documented for fear Trump would lie about their nature

-Cant answer questions about Steele dossier as that would jeopardise investigation.

-Aware of other facts he cant disclose re Sessions that would make his continued engagement in investigation problematic.

-When asked if he believed Trump colluded with Russia
'Thats a question I dont thing I should answer in an open session' Translation: It is classified and the answer is yes.

This post is incredibly misleading and inaccurate. If information was available that Trump colluded with Russia then why haven't the FBI opened an investigation? He's not currently under investigation. I'm not sure what part of that you're failing to understand?

If anything it's very clear at this point that the FBI have no criminal evidence on Trump despite your wishful thinking.

InTheTrees

Ipse dixit wrote: »

This post is incredibly misleading and inaccurate. If information was available that Trump colluded with Russia then why haven't the FBI opened an investigation? He's not currently under investigation. I'm not sure what part of that you're failing to understand?

The trump campaign is under investigation by the FBI. If it's found they conspired with the Russians then the Donald is gong down.

Water John

Sessions anyway, seems a gonner from yesterday. Just the system has to go through the motions, unless Donald cuts him loose.
I presume that takes Millar as well.

Call me Al

Ipse dixit wrote: »

This post is incredibly misleading and inaccurate. If information was available that Trump colluded with Russia then why haven't the FBI opened an investigation? He's not currently under investigation. I'm not sure what part of that you're failing to understand?

If anything it's very clear at this point that the FBI have no criminal evidence on Trump despite your wishful thinking.

It's not very clear at all. All we know is that up to the point where Comey was fired Trump was not under investigation. That doesn't mean there is no evidence or for that matter that a case is not now open.

What Comey said yesterday was that
Trump's requests were of "investigative interest to us" so they didnt want to inform the White House. Think about that. The President's requests were "Investigative interest". If that doesn't ring alarm bells with the American public they need to really think about what they expect from their political leadership.