President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

Rightwing

Harika wrote: »

Where is the problem with that? From the same article "In fiscal year 2015, 91 percent of people removed from inside the U.S. were previously convicted of a crime." So Obama focused on convicted criminals to remove them, 2.5 million, more than anyone else before, and still the Reps give him hell for that?
Where do you think is the difference to Trumps actions?

Maybe there is no difference, (apart from keeping quiet, eh? ).

B0jangles

So to recap, on day 14 of Trump's aministration he has managed to raise the chance of the following occuring:

A trade war with China
A trade war with Mexico
An actual war with China
An actual war with Iran
An actual war with Mexico
An actual war with Yemen

And he's insulted the Australian government for no particular reason.

And people are still clinging to the fantasy that trump was the safer choice when it came to world peace and military action. I have to ask, does admitting to being wrong give Die-hard Trumpists/"Clinton was Worse" people migraines, does it cause you actual, physical pain? It's the only logical conclusion I can come to at this point.

alastair

Rightwing wrote: »

Not pleasant reading for Democrats:
Obama deported more immigrants than any other president in history, (but he did it nice and quietly), and the latte-fuelled leftists didn't even notice.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obamas-deportation-policy-numbers/story?id=41715661
President Barack Obama has often been referred to by immigration groups as the "Deporter in Chief." Between 2009 and 2015 his administration has removed more than 2.5 million people.


Also signed up for the Mexican barrier as far back as 2006.

You're a bit late arriving to this party. The Obama record on deporting illegals is no secret - it's been regularly highlighted to point out the nonsense of Trump's claim of a lack of effort on dealing with illegal immigrants in the previous administration (along with the nonsense of a crisis at the border - which has far fewer illegal crossings that it had years back). Likewise the border fences are in place. That's not exactly a compelling argument for building an expensive wall to curb a problem that is far smaller than it was historically, and that can be bypassed with the application of a ladder.

alastair

Rightwing wrote: »

Maybe there is no difference, (apart from keeping quiet, eh? ).

Nobody kept it quiet.

Akrasia

B0jangles wrote: »

So to recap, on day 14 of Trump's aministration he has managed to raise the chance of the following occuring:

A trade war with China
A trade war with Mexico
An actual war with China
An actual war with Iran
An actual war with Mexico
An actual war with Yemen

And he's insulted the Australian government for no particular reason.

It's much worse than that.

He's also attacked Germany and accused them of rigging the currency markets against America and the other Euro countries, His Ambassador to Britain has said he hopes more EU countries will follow the U.K. example.

He had a very positive call with Russia, while attacking the E.U.

Rightwing

B0jangles wrote: »

So to recap, on day 14 of Trump's aministration he has managed to raise the chance of the following occuring:

A trade war with China
A trade war with Mexico
An actual war with China
An actual war with Iran
An actual war with Mexico
An actual war with Yemen

And he's insulted the Australian government for no particular reason.

And people are still clinging to the fantasy that trump was the safer choice when it came to world peace and military action. I have to ask, does admitting to being wrong give Die-hard Trumpists/"Clinton was Worse" people migraines, does it cause you actual, physical pain? It's the only logical conclusion I can come to at this point.

Is this a list of fanciful wishful thinking ?

B0jangles

Rightwing wrote: »

Is this a list of fanciful wishful thinking ?

South China Seas:
https://qz.com/900919/trump-adviser-steve-bannon-thinks-theres-no-doubt-the-us-is-headed-for-war-in-the-south-china-sea/

Iran
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-iran-idUSKBN15G5ED

Mexico
http://time.com/4657474/donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-mexico-bad-hombres/

Yemen
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/31/exclusive-pentagon-believes-attack-on-saudi-frigate-meant-for-us-warship.html

RobertKK

Billy86 wrote: »

I have answered your question, if you don't think I have then feel free to re-iterate what it is.

As for your second part... there's the straw man again. No president has sought permission from the Chinese government to sell weapons to Taiwan - and that is why I never once argued against that fact. Seriously Robert you really, really, REALLY should educate yourself a little further on the One China Policy of 1979 and Six Assurances of 1982. I am 100% convinced at this stage that you have absolutely zero idea what you are talking about and are just in "defend Trump" mode with. Look them up, here are two links to get you started.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan%E2%80%93United_States_relations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Assurances

And there's an example of Obama speaking diplomatically that you've given again. Diplomatic relations don't have to mean being BFFs, it's about being firm when needed, taking the high road when needed, and keeping distances when needed. Compare that to Trump's Twitter insults, crackpot conspiracy theories, and tirades in speeches -all of which you concede- and the difference is night and day.

Which makes the following entirely unsurprising...



AP reporting Trump has threatened to deploy US troops to Mexico.
https://twitter.com/joshledermanAP/status/826935678718136320

I have defended no one.
Bringing in Mexico is to use another of your favourite words is non sequitur.

So you accept Obama made threats to China warning of consequences over economic and South China Sea issues?

The Chinese snubbed Obama when he went to China for then G20 with no stairway provided for the plane with the red carpet in China which other leaders got.

Bishop said: “Other than in climate, in most areas of the US-China relationship there is increasing amounts of friction and some actually increasingly quite hot friction around the South China Sea and some of these military [interactions] in the region.”

“The US is looking a little weak and a little tired and I think [Beijing is] happy to put anybody in their place when they can. I think they see the opportunity to make Obama look weak,” he added.

They were also angry with the US over Taiwan at that time too.

But Trump...as if policy was different.

Rightwing

B0jangles wrote: »

South China Seas:
https://qz.com/900919/trump-adviser-steve-bannon-thinks-theres-no-doubt-the-us-is-headed-for-war-in-the-south-china-sea/

Iran
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-iran-idUSKBN15G5ED

Mexico
http://time.com/4657474/donald-trump-enrique-pena-nieto-mexico-bad-hombres/

Yemen
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/01/31/exclusive-pentagon-believes-attack-on-saudi-frigate-meant-for-us-warship.html

These threats were there just a little before Trump got in.

B0jangles

Rightwing wrote: »

These threats were there just a little before Trump got in.

In my post I said that Trump had increased the chance of these events happening, not that he created them all in his 14 days in office.

His administration is actively raising the chances of multiple conflicts around the world largely because he is a malignant narcissist surrounded by lunatics like Bannon.

Rightwing

B0jangles wrote: »

In my post I said that Trump had increased the chance of these events happening, not that he created them all in his 14 days in office.

His administration is actively raising the chances of multiple conflicts around the world largely because he is a malignant narcissist surrounded by lunatics like Bannon.

As an extension from your reasoning, we could conclude that Trump has increased chance of war with Australia, Germany etc.

We need to kill the hype and hysteria, because that's all it is.

Mr.Micro

Poor old Trump is only hastening the decline of the US. We may reach a point where everyone ignores it as a basket case and the normal countries get on with reality as best they can.

B0jangles

Rightwing wrote: »

As an extension from your reasoning, we could conclude that Trump has increased chance of war with Australia, Germany etc.

We need to kill the hype and hysteria, because that's all it is.

Your second sentence does not appear to relate in any meaningful way to your first.

Wars happen when diplomatic relations break down. Trump is actively damaging diplomatic relations with a ridiculous number of countries at the same time, in some cases for no apparent reason.

It's neither hype nor hysteria to point out and comment on this extraordinarily reckless behaviour.

Rightwing

B0jangles wrote: »

Your second sentence does not appear to relate in any meaningful way to your first.

Wars happen when diplomatic relations break down. Trump is actively damaging diplomatic relations with a ridiculous number of countries at the same time, in some cases for no apparent reason.

It's neither hype nor hysteria to point out and comment on this extraordinarily reckless behaviour.

Correct, pity no one told Obama this re Russia & Ukraine. That was quickly getting out of control.

Swings and roundabouts. China are a rising force, too late to stop them now. Tensions have been building for quite some time.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the likes of a US/Mex war. Why? Won't happen.

B0jangles

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct, pity no one told Obama this re Russia & Ukraine. That was quickly getting out of control.

Swings and roundabouts. China are a rising force, too late to stop them now. Tensions have been building for quite some time.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the likes of a US/Mex war. Why? Won't happen.

Was?

https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/826112878986014720

As to your other remarks... To make analogy: There is a major difference between managing/controlling various small fires versus wildly throwing petrol on them.

Mr.Micro

Rightwing wrote: »

Correct, pity no one told Obama this re Russia & Ukraine. That was quickly getting out of control.

Swings and roundabouts. China are a rising force, too late to stop them now. Tensions have been building for quite some time.

I wouldn't lose too much sleep over the likes of a US/Mex war. Why? Won't happen.

China will be the new super power, probably already is. If Trump continues his confrontational aggressive approach into the future, he will alienate everyone. Has he heard of diplomats and what their role is ? Trump thinks he is going to win every situation. He will find out soon that is not going to happen.

Rightwing

Mr.Micro wrote: »

China will be the new super power, probably already is. If Trump continues his confrontational aggressive approach into the future, he will alienate everyone. Has he heard of diplomats and what their role is ? Trump thinks he is going to win every situation. He will find out soon that is not going to happen.

Yes, I can agree with this. Bush/Obama bankrupted America, whilst China were taking all the jobs and making serious gains. Trump is about 20 years too late in the trade wars.

FA Hayek

No, the world is not going to end, no matter how many people are willing it. People are losing the run off themselves with fantasy nonsense. They are actually enjoying feeling afraid. The democrats and the media are peddling fear, fear of Trump, to mobilise their base. People are stupid enough to fall for it.

Billy86

RobertKK wrote: »

I have defended no one.
Bringing in Mexico is to use another of your favourite words is non sequitur.

So you accept Obama made threats to China warning of consequences over economic and South China Sea issues?

The Chinese snubbed Obama when he went to China for then G20 with no stairway provided for the plane with the red carpet in China which other leaders got.



They were also angry with the US over Taiwan at that time too.

But Trump...as if policy was different.

And while Obama turned the other cheek at the red carpet snub, Trump threatened to have a temper tantrum over it. Big difference, again. You just continuously prove yourself wrong on this.

If you're not defending Trump's sheer lack of political tact (and that's if we give him the benefit of the doubt and don't assume he's acting this way purposely to provoke for war), then you've openly conceded that he's far more likely to cause war with China than previous US presidents.

You clearly didn't click on the links in my last post, by the way. There's no point in arguing with someone who flat out refuses to even have a clue what they are talking about, which is clearly what you're doing here.

Harika

FA Hayek wrote: »

No, the world is not going to end, no matter how many people are willing it. People are losing the run off themselves with fantasy nonsense. They are actually enjoying feeling afraid. The democrats and the media are peddling fear, fear of Trump, to mobilise their base. People are stupid enough to fall for it.

Who is more afraid? People who are afraid of illegal immigrants that are going to kill them or Mexicans that are going to rape them or terrorists coming from abroad or the contenders: those that oppose those fears?

RobertKK

Billy86 wrote: »

And while Obama turned the other cheek at the red carpet snub, Trump threatened to have a temper tantrum over it. Big difference, again. You just continuously prove yourself wrong on this.

If you're not defending Trump's sheer lack of political tact (and that's if we give him the benefit of the doubt and don't assume he's acting this way purposely to provoke for war), then you've openly conceded that he's far more likely to cause war with China than previous US presidents.

You clearly didn't click on the links in my last post, by the way. There's no point in arguing with someone who flat out refuses to even have a clue what they are talking about, which is clearly what you're doing here.

Policy has not changed.
You talk about people not having a clue...

Christy42

RobertKK wrote: »

Policy has not changed.
You talk about people not having a clue...

Relations with China have deterioted because of Trump. Regardless about whether or not official policy has changed that statement is correct. It also implies that war is more likely given there was already tensions before Trump.

Obama for his flaws would not have made those tweets and would not be inspiring this backlash from China. The worst he got was a lack of a red carpet. Trump has already got the Chinese military talking about war.

rgossip30

RobertKK wrote: »

Policy has not changed.
You talk about people not having a clue...

He is an expert poster .

B0jangles

On a lighter note, Trump gave a speech on Martin Luther King jr. day which has been widely *ahem* commented on:

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/my-very-good-black-history-month-tribute-to-some-of-the-most-tremendous-black-people

Well, the election, it came out really well. Next time we’ll triple the number or quadruple it. We want to get it over 51, right? At least 51.

Well this is Black History Month, so this is our little breakfast, our little get-together. Hi Lynn, how are you? Just a few notes. During this month, we honor the tremendous history of African-Americans throughout our country. Throughout the world, if you really think about it, right? And their story is one of unimaginable sacrifice, hard work, and faith in America. I’ve gotten a real glimpse — during the campaign, I’d go around with Ben to a lot of different places I wasn’t so familiar with. They’re incredible people. And I want to thank Ben Carson, who’s gonna be heading up HUD. That’s a big job. That’s a job that’s not only housing, but it’s mind and spirit. Right, Ben? And you understand, nobody’s gonna be better than Ben.

Last month, we celebrated the life of Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr., whose incredible example is unique in American history. You read all about Dr. Martin Luther King a week ago when somebody said I took the statue out of my office. It turned out that that was fake news. Fake news. The statue is cherished, it’s one of the favorite things in the — and we have some good ones. We have Lincoln, and we have Jefferson, and we have Dr. Martin Luther King. But they said the statue, the bust of Martin Luther King, was taken out of the office. And it was never even touched. So I think it was a disgrace, but that’s the way the press is. Very unfortunate.

I am very proud now that we have a museum on the National Mall where people can learn about Reverend King, so many other things. Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I noticed. Harriet Tubman, Rosa Parks, and millions more black Americans who made America what it is today. Big impact.


I’m proud to honor this heritage and will be honoring it more and more. The folks at the table in almost all cases have been great friends and supporters. Darrell — I met Darrell when he was defending me on television. And the people that were on the other side of the argument didn’t have a chance, right? And Paris has done an amazing job in a very hostile CNN community. He’s all by himself. You’ll have seven people, and Paris. And I’ll take Paris over the seven. But I don’t watch CNN, so I don’t get to see you as much as I used to. I don’t like watching fake news. But Fox has treated me very nice. Wherever Fox is, thank you.

We’re gonna need better schools and we need them soon. We need more jobs, we need better wages, a lot better wages. We’re gonna work very hard on the inner city. Ben is gonna be doing that, big league. That’s one of the big things that you’re gonna be looking at. We need safer communities and we’re going to do that with law enforcement. We’re gonna make it safe. We’re gonna make it much better than it is right now. Right now it’s terrible, and I saw you talking about it the other night, Paris, on something else that was really — you did a fantastic job the other night on a very unrelated show.

I’m ready to do my part, and I will say this: We’re gonna work together. This is a great group, this is a group that’s been so special to me. You really helped me a lot. If you remember I wasn’t going to do well with the African-American community, and after they heard me speaking and talking about the inner city and lots of other things, we ended up getting — and I won’t go into details — but we ended up getting substantially more than other candidates who had run in the past years. And now we’re gonna take that to new levels. I want to thank my television star over here — Omarosa’s actually a very nice person, nobody knows that. I don’t want to destroy her reputation but she’s a very good person, and she’s been helpful right from the beginning of the campaign, and I appreciate it. I really do. Very special.

So I want to thank everybody for being here.

For contrast, here's a transcript of a speech Obama gave on the same date in 2011
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2011/10/16/remarks-president-martin-luther-king-jr-memorial-dedication

Not going to post it all here because it's pretty long, but here's a sample:

Barack Obama wrote:

We forget now, but during his life, Dr. King wasn’t always considered a unifying figure. Even after rising to prominence, even after winning the Nobel Peace Prize, Dr. King was vilified by many, denounced as a rabble rouser and an agitator, a communist and a radical. He was even attacked by his own people, by those who felt he was going too fast or those who felt he was going too slow; by those who felt he shouldn’t meddle in issues like the Vietnam War or the rights of union workers. We know from his own testimony the doubts and the pain this caused him, and that the controversy that would swirl around his actions would last until the fateful day he died.

I raise all this because nearly 50 years after the March on Washington, our work, Dr. King’s work, is not yet complete. We gather here at a moment of great challenge and great change. In the first decade of this new century, we have been tested by war and by tragedy; by an economic crisis and its aftermath that has left millions out of work, and poverty on the rise, and millions more just struggling to get by. Indeed, even before this crisis struck, we had endured a decade of rising inequality and stagnant wages. In too many troubled neighborhoods across the country, the conditions of our poorest citizens appear little changed from what existed 50 years ago -– neighborhoods with underfunded schools and broken-down slums, inadequate health care, constant violence, neighborhoods in which too many young people grow up with little hope and few prospects for the future.

Trump's brain clearly does not function in anything like a normal way

Zubeneschamali

B0jangles wrote: »

Trump's brain clearly does not function in anything like a normal way

True, but we are starting to see how it does function.

He starts out by saying "Just a few notes." and it reads as if that is all he had - not a speech, just an index card with the names Reverend Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and so on.

He waffles along until he reads a name, and then maybe it reminds him of some recent event - like the Bust thing in the media and he chases that thought for a while, and then he goes back and reads the next name, but it means nothing to him.

He really doesn't understand that referring to Ben Carson as if he was the chief of a village in Africa who showed him around the mud huts is mind-bogglingly offensive. He is obviously really pleased with himself for having an actual black guy to handle "urban" affairs and can't resist crowing about it.


And of course the actual subject is not Black History Month, it is Donald Trump, his bad treatment by the media, his big election win, and how great everything will be.

Mental age? 10-12.

B0jangles

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

True, but we are starting to see how it does function.

He starts out by saying "Just a few notes." and it reads as if that is all he had - not a speech, just an index card with the names Reverend Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks and so on.

He waffles along until he reads a name, and then maybe it reminds him of some recent event - like the Bust thing in the media and he chases that thought for a while, and then he goes back and reads the next name, but it means nothing to him.

He really doesn't understand that referring to Ben Carson as if he was the chief of a village in Africa who showed him around the mud huts is mind-bogglingly offensive. He is obviously really pleased with himself for having an actual black guy to handle "urban" affairs and can't resist crowing about it.


And of course the actual subject is not Black History Month, it is Donald Trump, his bad treatment by the media, his big election win, and how great everything will be.

Mental age? 10-12.

To be honest, I think that's unintentionally a little insulting to 10 year olds; I've seen 10 year old kids give well-contructed, coherent speeches without cards or notes, like this kid for example:

https://youtu.be/DtCxjMdE5dM?t=24

Trump is more like a 3 year old who hasn't had enough nap-time.

rossie1977

FA Hayek wrote: »

No, the world is not going to end, no matter how many people are willing it. People are losing the run off themselves with fantasy nonsense. They are actually enjoying feeling afraid. The democrats and the media are peddling fear, fear of Trump, to mobilise their base. People are stupid enough to fall for it.

It's funny Trump's inauguration speech made it feel like the world and America in general was already experiencing Mad Max levels of dystopia..

The Democrats ain't the ones banning people entering the country or building walls or making up rubbish about nearly half the country unemployed!!!

In other news it been discovered that Trump's pick for supreme court founded a 'Fascists Forever' club while in school.

RobertKK

Christy42 wrote: »

Relations with China have deterioted because of Trump. Regardless about whether or not official policy has changed that statement is correct. It also implies that war is more likely given there was already tensions before Trump.

Obama for his flaws would not have made those tweets and would not be inspiring this backlash from China. The worst he got was a lack of a red carpet. Trump has already got the Chinese military talking about war.

They were already bad, people seem to want to avoid they were already bad so to set a new narrative.

If Obama would not have made things worse, then why were relations with China under Obama worse than under Bush?
Why were relations with Russia worse with the US under Obama than Bush, to the point there was the biggest military build up in Easter Europe since the cold war?
Obama already had navy ships sailing by the islands and there already had been confrontation.

If Obama was so great it is a wonder there had been more wars the US were involved in than under Bush.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/10/08/u-s-navy-to-china-well-sail-our-ships-near-your-man-made-islands-whenever-we-want/?utm_term=.6666eafe20b3

Navy Times reported on Wednesday that getting Obama’s approval to send U.S. ships into the disputed areas is imminent, citing anonymous defense officials. Defense officials interviewed by The Washington Post questioned whether that is a stretch, but said the Navy is ready to do so if Obama approves the mission.
Defense officials told The Post that the plan could be carried out by a destroyer or a cruiser, both of which carry helicopters and a variety of weapons, or a more lightly armed littoral combat ship (LCS). The Navy would not anticipate a skirmish with the Chinese as a result, the officials said.
“The objective to this would be to demonstrate that this is international water,” one official said. “Whether that is a destroyer loaded out with missiles or an LCS with less weapons, the point wouldn’t be about which weapons the Navy is sending.”

If Trump did that there would be people here saying it was a declaration of war by Trump...
Fact remains US policy towards China is unchanged, and some here have problems that Trump spoke to a political leader from Taiwan.
People should be allowed to speak to whoever they want.

The tweets don't matter, one would think Obama saying on TV there would be consequences for China over economic and South China Sea issues was somehow different, it was just a different form of media, that is all, some get so upset over twitter, but go all Frozen if Obama said it on TV where the people who had issue with Trump tweeting it, have no issue with Obama saying it and choose to let it go.

Christy42

RobertKK wrote: »

They were already bad, people seem to want to avoid they were already bad so to set a new narrative.

If Obama would not have made things worse, then why were relations with China under Obama worse than under Bush?
Why were relations with Russia worse with the US under Obama than Bush, to the point there was the biggest military build up in Easter Europe since the cold war?
Obama already had navy ships sailing by the islands and there already had been confrontation.

If Obama was so great it is a wonder there had been more wars the US were involved in than under Bush.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2015/10/08/u-s-navy-to-china-well-sail-our-ships-near-your-man-made-islands-whenever-we-want/?utm_term=.6666eafe20b3



If Trump did that there would be people here saying it was a declaration of war by Trump...
Fact remains US policy towards China is unchanged, and some here have problems that Trump spoke to a political leader from Taiwan.
People should be allowed to speak to whoever they want.

The tweets don't matter, one would think Obama saying on TV there would be consequences for China over economic and South China Sea issues was somehow different, it was just a different form of media, that is all, some get so upset over twitter, but go all Frozen if Obama said it on TV where the people who had issue with Trump tweeting it, have no issue with Obama saying it and choose to let it go.

I literally said there was already tensions in my post.

China seems to feel Trump's rhetoric matters. Saying there should consequences over the south Sea is fine. You have to stand up to them. Trump has gone out of his way to piss them off.

B0jangles

He's continuing to create conflict with Australia of all bloody places - Australia is one of the US's closest allies and would be an important element in any activities either diplomatic or otherwise with regard to the South China Sea situation.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/827002559122567168?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsAust/status/826996882744373249

Totally, completely INSANE.