President 'The Donald' Trump and Surprising Consequences - Mod warning in OP

FrancieBrady

Boeing experiencing a few surprising consequences of the Donald.
Somebody needs to prise the tweet machine from his cold spray tanned hands.

Billy86

Trump fans are aware that even if they ignore him lying about Boeing's £4bn contract (it's not) and pretend to themselves that it's true... that that would result in a LOT of lost jobs in American manufacturing, right?

Oh, right, yeah, they don't actually care. Sorry rust belters, you got sold a lemon. Or orange. I feel bad for them, but they can't say they weren't warned, repeatedly.

Billy86

oscarBravo wrote: »

It might be, if his actions consistently pointed that way.

Let's see: Goldman Sachs guy for Treasury; RNC chair for Chief of Staff; billionaires for Commerce and Education (the latter notably having admitted that the whole point of political contributions is to buy influence); a 20-year Senate veteran for AG; four-term congressman for CIA; six-term congressman for HHS; former Labour Secretary for Transportation (who also happens to be married to the Senate Majority Leader)...

I think we need to take our cue from Corey Lewandowski when interpreting Trump's claim to want to drain the swamp: we shouldn't take him literally. In other words, the safe option when parsing anything Trump says is to assume he's lying.

You left out two Goldman Sachs guys in charge of his campaign, and key to his transition team by the way.

Oh, and the business people (and politicians) from abroad who have direct influence over US policy illegally now, due to their illegal donations that Trump's campaign went out and sought for months on end.

recedite

Billy86 wrote: »

lying about Boeing's £4bn contract (it's not) and pretend to themselves that it's true...

I don't think its a fixed contract; these things have a habit of escalating. $4B would probably be a bit conservative. If Boeing were given their way it would be $5B or more by the end.
Anyone remember the eurofighter. A whole new plane is obviously in a different league to a modification, but similar cost principles apply.

In 1988, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Armed Forces told the UK House of Commons that the European Fighter Aircraft would "be a major project, costing the United Kingdom about £7 billion". It was soon apparent a more realistic estimate was £13 billion, made up of £3.3 billion development costs plus £30 million per aircraft.[49] By 1997 the estimated cost was £17 billion; by 2003, £20 billion, and the in-service date (2003, defined as the date of delivery of the first aircraft to the RAF) was 54 months late. After 2003, the Ministry of Defence refused to release updated cost-estimates on the grounds of 'commercial sensitivity'. However, in 2011, the National Audit Office estimated the UK's "assessment, development, production and upgrade costs eventually hit £22.9 billion".

Billy86

recedite wrote: »

I don't think its a fixed contract; these things have a habit of escalating. $4B would probably be a bit conservative. If Boeing were given their way it would be $5B or more by the end.
Anyone remember the eurofighter. A whole new plane is obviously in a different league to a modification, but similar cost principles apply.

Trump: "Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One for future presidents, but costs are out of control, more than $4bn (€3.7bn). Cancel order!"

Boeing: "We are currently under contract for $170 million to help determine the capabilities of these complex military aircraft that serve the unique requirements of the President of the United States. We look forward to working with the U.S. Air Force on subsequent phases of the program allowing us to deliver the best planes for the President at the best value for the American taxpayer."

So yeah, a pretty clear cut lie until anything official is announced. Fake news, to be honest, because it doesn't exist.

But if you want to contest that and claim it is true, then surely you agree Trump trying to cancel the order is a bad thing as it will cost a lot of Boeing's blue collar, manufacturing staff in the small city (103,000 population) of Everett, WA right?

ebbsy

Donald tweets. Sets the agenda for the day. Free advertising.

Everyone follows.

Zubeneschamali

ebbsy wrote: »

Donald tweets. Sets the agenda for the day. Free advertising

Knocks a billion dollars off Boeings share price. Ha ha - only messing!

BoJack Horseman

Billy86 wrote: »

So yeah, a pretty clear cut lie until anything official is announced. Fake news, to be honest, because it doesn't exist

Fraid not.

The AF are the ones projecting a cost of $4bn, including a baffling $1.6bn in R&D alone.
This on an already existing & mature air frame (747-8) and with the bulk of mods already designed.

But then, there wasn't really a bidding process on this..... EADS/Airbus pulled out so it was awarded to Boeing without competition.

And of course this is not unique on the part of Trump.
Back in the day St Obama was scathing towards Lockheed on the costs of the Marine-1 replacement programme.......
T'would be hypocritical to attack Trump for echoing his predecessor.

ancapailldorcha

ebbsy wrote: »

Donald tweets. Sets the agenda for the day. Free advertising.

Everyone follows.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Knocks a billion dollars off Boeings share price. Ha ha - only messing!

Post more constructively than this please.

BoJack Horseman

recedite wrote: »

I don't think its a fixed contract; these things have a habit of escalating. $4B would probably be a bit conservative..

Unlikely tbh, this seems a maximum allocation of funds.

It is also probably not in 'current year' dollars, the DOD and the likes often declare estimated costs on long-lead time projects in a 'then year' basis....
So the $4bn allocation might be adjusted for inflation out to when the 2nd one is built (2023-25) and probably include some contingency space.

It is still an eye-watering amount for just 2 aircraft (I don't think this will include the cost of replacing the Boeing E-4s that accompany the President's plane when overseas).

El_Duderino 09

ebbsy wrote:

Donald tweets. Sets the agenda for the day. Free advertising.

Everyone follows.

This is exactly what happened. He can drop a dead cat on the table like nobody else.

Imagibe trying to hold him to account when he can distract the entire media with fake news. If I didn't hate everything about him I'd admire him. I sometimes wish I didn't care about the future because it must be great fun to be a trump supporter right now. He has the entire media wrapped around his finger.

Zubeneschamali

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Post more constructively than this please.

Sorry.

Boeing's share value saw a billion dollars wiped off after this tweet.

The share price recovered when investors realized that it was just Donald, and not real.

BoJack Horseman

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The share price recovered when investors realized that it was just Donald, and not real.

What part wasn't real?

FreudianSlippers

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

What part wasn't real?

Both Boeing and the White House put out PR that countered what Trump said and the price rebounded.

One would have to admit, it was a sharp drop following a tweet!

RobbingBandit

If he does successfully cut the corporations tax will it entice companies to relocate back to America again or is that just a pipe dream like the wall and locking up Hillary.

Zubeneschamali

RobbingBandit wrote: »

If he does successfully cut the corporations tax will it entice companies to relocate back to America again or is that just a pipe dream like the wall and locking up Hillary.

It might entice some companies to move some jobs.

But American companies do not generally set up in Ireland to dodge US corporation tax. They set up here to have a presence in Europe - then they choose between European countries based on tax, grants, workforce skills and availability etc.

Lower corporate taxes in the US will mainly change where and when they declare profits, not where they put jobs.

BoJack Horseman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Both Boeing and the White House put out PR that countered what Trump said and the price rebounded.

No.... I'm wondering what part of Trumps tweet wasn't real?

One would have to admit, it was a sharp drop following a tweet!

It was 2 cent?
Wow.... how outrageous by Trump!

Meanwhile after St Barry's similar criticism of the Marine-1 replacements the Lockheed share price plummeted by nearly $20!!.... or by 1000 times more than Trumps criticism of Boeing.



Are you lads not seeing your double standard here?

Billy86

What a shock, turns out there is a reason for Trump's random, lying outburst against Boeing:

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/806192671891083264?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

Company criticises Trump over his trade plans, Trump responds with childish outburst, potentially putting hundreds, if not thousands of their manufacturing and production line staff's jobs at risk.

BoJack Horseman

Billy86 wrote: »

Trump responds with childish outburst, potentially putting hundreds, if not thousands of their manufacturing and production line staff's jobs at risk.

In your opinion where you as outraged by Trumps much publicised cricitism of Lockheed & their F-35?

The Boeing project is a beefy $4bn acquisition contract for 2 aircraft......
Lockheed's project is a behemoth $320bn acquisition contract for 2,400 aircraft....

Far far more jobs rely on the latter than on the former.
The Joint Programme Office state a staggering 146,000 jobs are reliant on the Lightning-2.... which, as I said, Trump has been excoriating about.

Did that get a mention here?

Amerika

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Both Boeing and the White House put out PR that countered what Trump said and the price rebounded.

One would have to admit, it was a sharp drop following a tweet!

Interesting, Boeing said the AF1 deal Trump tweeted about was only contracted at $170 million. But the number Trump quoted, $4 Billlion, is more accurate as the planes won't be ready until 2023 or 2024. And investors rebounded the stocks based on Boeing's mistruth? And we put our money in the hands of these investors?

Every corporation is being put on notice by Trump. No one is too big to nail. The American people like that.

“The $4 billion figure looks reasonable,” says Mark Cancian, a senior advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, who previously oversaw Department of Defense acquisitions at the White House Office of Management and Budget.

FreudianSlippers

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

No.... I'm wondering what part of Trumps tweet wasn't real?

It's 2 planes for $3.75bn over 12 years.

It's factually inaccurate at best.

It was 2 cent?
Wow.... how outrageous by Trump!

As you are aware, 2c can and in this case did wipe over $500m off shareholders.

BoJack Horseman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As you are aware.......

So, to summarise: The Donald makes a comment about AF-1 and knocks 2% of Boeing's share price which recovers within 4 hours... and boardsies are massing the high-horses...

Obama makes comments about Marine-1 that plunges Lockheed's share price by around 25% which takes far longer to recover, but no one cares......

Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy here?

Billy86

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

So, to summarise: The Donald makes a comment about AF-1 and knocks 2% of Boeing's share price which recovers within 4 hours... and boardsies are massing the high-horses...

Obama makes comments about Marine-1 that plunges Lockheed's share price by around 25% which takes far longer to recover, but no one cares......

Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy here?

I must have forgotten the part where Obama made blue collar manufacturing jobs across America one of the absolute centre points of his campaign, and then went and tried to put the jobs of thousands of those very jobs potentially at risk because they criticised his trade plans.

FreudianSlippers

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

So, to summarise: The Donald makes a comment about AF-1 and knocks 2% of Boeing's share price which recovers within 4 hours... and boardsies are massing the high-horses...

Obama makes comments about Marine-1 that plunges Lockheed's share price by around 25% which takes far longer to recover, but no one cares......

Please tell me you can see the hypocrisy here?

If Obama made a completely unqualified statement on Twitter, I would see loads of hypocrisy. Although, I believe if you do some fact-checking that the statement was made by Senator McCain who identified the fact that the LH contract for the Marine-1 replacement was more than two times over budget.

Would you admit that on prompted by Senator McCain, Obama saying that he has asked for a review into the procurement process for the Marine-1 replacement is more than slightly different than the Twitter bile "Cancel order!"

BoJack Horseman

Billy86 wrote: »

I must have forgotten the part where Obama made blue collar manufacturing jobs across America one of the absolute centre points of his campaign

Indeed.... having spent 8 years shipping loads abroad the Dems lose Wisco, Michigan & Pennsylvania!

Perhaps the democrats might want to start talking to the working poor again?

Anyway, that wasn't an answer....
Would you agree Billy that if you think Trump was wrong to criticise the cost of the AF-1 contract then Obama was also wrong to criticise the Marine-1 contract (seeing as the stock market impact was far greater from the Obama intervention)?

And aren't you even more angry by Trumps outbursts regarding Lockheeds Lightning-2 programme which.... (in your words).

Billy86 wrote:

potentially putting hundreds, if not thousands of their manufacturing and production line staff's jobs at risk.

That must have really boiled your pee, no?

Billy86

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Indeed.... having spent 8 years shipping loads abroad the Dems lose Wisco, Michigan & Pennsylvania!

Perhaps the democrats might want to start talking to the working poor again?

Anyway, that wasn't an answer....
Would you agree Billy that if you think Trump was wrong to criticise the cost of the AF-1 contract then Obama was also wrong to criticise the Marine-1 contract (seeing as the stock market impact was far greater from the Obama intervention)?

And aren't you even more angry by Trumps outbursts regarding Lockheeds Lightning-2 programme which.... (in your words).

That must have really boiled your pee, no?

Not mine, I don't work there. Just shows what a hypocrite and con artist he really is.

I've already answered your question - what a president ran their campaign on dictates how their actions are viewed. Now can you show us where Obama ran on a platform of manufacturing jobs or not?

And I see you've backed away from your "Obama only created 2mn full time jobs during his presidency" and "Obama was only a community organiser" let's say... 'untruths'... and now are churning out another one as FreudianSlippers pointed out.

Anything to detract from talking about Trump inside the Trump thread, eh!

Yourself isit

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It's 2 planes for $3.75bn over 12 years.

It's factually inaccurate at best.



As you are aware, 2c can and in this case did wipe over $500m off shareholders.

This wiping off shareholders value effects the people who sold before it recovered. And it's within normal fluctuations.

And the $4B seems right, close enough. Albeit for two planes. But isn't that number absurd for 2 planes?

BoJack Horseman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I believe if you do some fact-checking that the statement was made by Senator McCain

Lots of people had lots to say on that project...

Obama criticised it by saying:
"I think it is ... an example of the procurement process gone amuck.."

Accordingly the project was cancelled at the insistence of the White House.
Lockheed ate a lot of it & the taxpayer even more so.

So, again..... Obama cancels project... no one cares!
Trump threatens cancellation.... grrrr... bad!

Lockheed stocks crater..... no one cares
Boeing has a 4hr/2% tim..... grrrr.... bad!

Seem ok to you?

BoJack Horseman

Billy86 wrote: »

Not mine, I don't work there

Indeed..., you don't really care.... so why pretend?

Why the faux-outrage on a Trump tweet about a boeing project but Trump eviscerating a Lockheed project doesn't require response?

You seem selective in your outrage Billy?
Why is that?

Billy86

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Accordingly the project was cancelled at the insistence of the White House.

Sure you're not leaving something out here... ?

In June 2009, the VH-71 program was canceled due to these cost overruns.[11] By this time, cost estimates had ballooned to more than $13 billion.[9] The Government Accountability Office issued a report in March 2011 that pointed to three sources for the cost overruns. First, asking for development at the same time as production led to extensive retrofitting of built models. Second, a full-scale review of the system's requirements did not occur until four months after production started. Only then was it discovered that the VH-71's design could not meet the system's needs. Third, DOD and the White House asked for excessive combat and communications capabilities.[9]

Shortly after the program's cancellation, however, the Marine Corps started the program again.