Is Marriage to much of a risk ?

Ayuntamiento

minikin wrote: »

Yes it's too much of a risk, unless both of you would be perfectly happy living together unmarried.
If one party insists on it then don't do it, being married won't make you a better couple or give you a stronger relationship.

We were happy together six years, with a fantastic daughter and I got the "we have to get married" pressure from her nibs and her family (her father was ill at the time). So we did 'the right thing', committed all sorts of money to the big day (both of us were actually made redundant just before the wedding) everything went downhill two months after the wedding, expectations were raised with the marriage that everything would be fantastic afterwards... cue four years of misery and now separation.

I have lost everything, put all my effort and resources into the family, home and relationship which I have been unceremoniously evicted from and the motivation to improve the situation is gone as her hand will be out for more if I do so.

Now I'm not saying it's a bad idea to get married but...

It sounds to me like money was the thing that put an end to your relationship, not marriage.
You obviously have very different attitudes about how to manage it since she wanted the extravagant wedding that you could ill-afford. And then the stress of redundancy and having basically no money.
The other thing that jumps out at me is your interfering in-laws. And the fact that your partner sided with them over you.
These are the issues that broke you up surely?
There seems to be lots of stories of big expensive weddings resulting in marriages not working out.
My wedding cost less than €1,000 and I have a very happy marriage. It probably helps that we didn't start our married life in tons of debt.

minikin

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

It sounds to me like money was the thing that put an end to your relationship, not marriage.
You obviously have very different attitudes about how to manage it since she wanted the extravagant wedding that you could ill-afford. And then the stress of redundancy and having basically no money.
The other thing that jumps out at me is your interfering in-laws. And the fact that your partner sided with them over you.
These are the issues that broke you up surely?
There seems to be lots of stories of big expensive weddings resulting in marriages not working out.
My wedding cost less than €1,000 and I have a very happy marriage. It probably helps that we didn't start our married life in tons of debt.

I'm not looking for a post-mortem but thanks for your suggestions - they're completely wrong as it happens. We were back on our feet financially within weeks of the wedding... the issue was, as I said, raised expectations.

Wibbs

minikin wrote: »

If one party insists on it then don't do it, being married won't make you a better couple or give you a stronger relationship.

+1. Any extra pressure adds to what risks there are. From my observations the general patterns seem to be: Long pre marriage relationship is better. Ditto for engagement. "Panic buying" in people's thirties is often a disaster. Whether that be a public it's all over disaster or long standing private one(the latter being much worse). The "I want children, so let's rush through the Honeymoon period, get engaged, married and down to procreation" trajectory. I've personally seen those kind of relationships fail at a far higher rate than first love married at 20 relationships. Getting hitched on the back of a pregnancy, "surprise" or not is another extra pressure. Very different backgrounds/cultures/ages/intelligence/relationship attitudes(some men and women just aren't built for them IMH) would be other pressures.

Obviously these would be generalisations of course and plenty with some or even all of the above go on to be successful, but the risk is higher. Depends on background culture and laws too. EG marriage is demonstrably and statistically a higher risk in say America or Sweden where separation and divorce stats are higher than in Ireland. Even then it is, contrary to popular, the minority who get divorced.

pilly

Been there done that once, would I do it again? It was a failure for both of us but that's not to say it wouldn't work with someone else. Honestly, I don't know.

Never say never I suppose but you do get to a stage where it's difficult to see yourself answering to someone every day. I can make a plan for this evening without consulting anyone and that's a great feeling. On the other hand it can be lonely but I'm lucky in having my children whom I know will always be around (barring death).

I have to say I would be full of regret now if I didn't have children. At the end of the day it's good to have someone who loves you unconditionally and whom you love unconditionally. Some people can get that from their parents or siblings I suppose but I never have.

RobertKK

Public state/civil marriage is an outdated concept, and law has replaced 'till death do us depart' with 'till divorce do us depart'.
People basically lie on their wedding day, given 'till death do us depart' has no legal standing and people can be unknowingly or maybe even knowingly lying to their supposed loved one as they say their vows.

I can't see myself ever being or wanting to be in this institution.

Ayuntamiento

minikin wrote: »

I'm not looking for a post-mortem but thanks for your suggestions - they're completely wrong as it happens. We were back on our feet financially within weeks of the wedding... the issue was, as I said, raised expectations.

Yeah it's good to keep those expectations nice and low 😄

kunst nugget

I got married 13 years ago to my wife at the age of 25 which I know many would think as madness here but we'd already known each other 5 years and lived together for 4. It could have gone tits up and I'm sure for a lot of other couples it would have but we are stronger together now than we were back then. We have weathered every storm and come out the other side closer than before. She knows all my worst aspects and still loves me unconditionally as I love her. We don't take each other for granted and we are honest and open if things are getting to us rather than bottling it up. They were lessons hard learned tbf but it means nothing ever festers between us.

Is marriage too much of a risk? Possibly… I can't speak from the point of view of a person that's lost it all like minikin above and truth be told if I wasn't married myself that's a story that would put me off big time. I could say that I'm lucky but I think we've both worked at the relationship and both of us have picked up the slack at various times because we know that we work best together. Don't enter into marriage unless you truly know the other person has got your back and you've got theirs and that both of you are willing to work through the good times and the bad.

osarusan

Serious question here - what are these raised expectations people are talking about?

I mean, for people together for a few years, who have children together even...in what way were expectations raised?

pilly

osarusan wrote: »

Serious question here - what are these raised expectations people are talking about?

I mean, for people together for a few years, who have children together even...in what way were expectations raised?

I was wondering that? How would it change expectations?

kunst nugget

RobertKK wrote: »

Public state/civil marriage is an outdated concept, and law has replaced 'till death do us depart' with 'till divorce do us depart'.
People basically lie on their wedding day, given 'till death do us depart' has no legal standing and people can be unknowingly or maybe even knowingly lying to their supposed loved one as they say their vows.

I can't see myself ever being or wanting to be in this institution.

That's a pretty pedantic reason to be against the institution of marriage.

kunst nugget

osarusan wrote: »

Serious question here - what are these raised expectations people are talking about?

I mean, for people together for a few years, who have children together even...in what way were expectations raised?

I'd wager that one side had an idea of how mature married people should behave and goals that they should achieve that didn't chime with what the other thought which created conflict.

intheclouds

RobertKK wrote: »

Public state/civil marriage is an outdated concept, and law has replaced 'till death do us depart' with 'till divorce do us depart'.
People basically lie on their wedding day, given 'till death do us depart' has no legal standing and people can be unknowingly or maybe even knowingly lying to their supposed loved one as they say their vows.

I can't see myself ever being or wanting to be in this institution.

Outdated how?

There's still billions of people doing it worldwide in vastly different societies.

What's the more up to date thing to be doing?

kunst nugget

intheclouds wrote: »

Outdated how?

There's still billions of people doing it worldwide in vastly different societies.

What's the more up to date thing to be doing?

Phone sex. It's all the rage…

minikin

Her raised expectations:

That we would no longer have to work together (practically, emotionally, financially) in every sense to keep the relationship improving.

Some people think that the marriage is the end goal, at which point you can stop trying and the other person has to accept it because they are now your husband.

Some people think they are owed a lifestyle now that they have married you.

Some people just think being married is going to make them happier because of all the effort they put in to the big day... it's like christmas... sometimes the time when all the decorations are taken down can be the lowest of the year because you realise the fuss is over, the attention is gone.

Sometimes the realisation that 'this is it', this is what I have for the rest of my days can make some feel regret... it's the foreverness of the commitment than can freak some out.

I really should have listened to the alarm bells when the pre-marital course I suggested was refused out of hand, live and learn!

nice_guy80

Marriage is promoted in the state as per tax laws and inheritance laws

It's a protection for both parties in a long term relationship as far as I can see

osarusan

minikin wrote: »

Her raised expectations:

That we would no longer have to work together (practically, emotionally, financially) in every sense to keep the relationship improving.

Some people think that the marriage is the end goal, at which point you can stop trying and the other person has to accept it because they are now your husband.

Some people think they are owed a lifestyle now that they have married you.

Some people just think being married is going to make them happier because of all the effort they put in to the big day... it's like christmas... sometimes the time when all the decorations are taken down can be the lowest of the year because you realise the fuss is over, the attention is gone.

Sometimes the realisation that 'this is it', this is what I have for the rest of my days can make some feel regret... it's the foreverness of the commitment than can freak some out.

I really should have listened to the alarm bells when the pre-marital course I suggested was refused out of hand, live and learn!

Thanks for that.

It still seems strange to me that somebody who had been in a relationship with somebody else for a few years would actually expect things to be drastically different after a wedding - they're exactly the same people they were before they got married.

If you're comfortable answering - do you think that your relationship would have continued to be strong if you had never got married, or do you think you might have run into these problems down the line anyway (no longer needing to work on the relationship, being owed a living, etc)?

kunst nugget

osarusan wrote: »

It still seems strange to me that somebody who had been in a relationship with somebody else for a few years would actually expect things to be drastically different after a wedding - they're exactly the same people they were before they got married.

Ah, I've definitely heard of people who think their partner will magically change once the ring is on the finger. Children is the big one as far as I can see. Someone who has zero interest in making babies is somehow going to be besotted with the notion of having a child when their partner has them married.

osarusan

kunst nugget wrote: »

Ah, I've definitely heard of people who think their partner will magically change once the ring is on the finger. Children is the big one as far as I can see. Someone who has zero interest in making babies is somehow going to be besotted with the notion of having a child when their partner has them married.

Yeah, I see this too, but I'd imagine that this will eventually bubble to the surface, marriage or no marriage.

I mean, if somebody is just waiting to get married so they can stop making an effort, they'll eventually stop making an effort anyway, or else get fed up waiting to get married.

I can understand a drastic change when a couple haven't been together that long and don't have kids, or don't even live together, and their relatively carefree lives are replaced by kids and a mortgage - but for people who were already together years and had kids...I wonder why they expected things to change.

minikin

Thanks for your questions, I'm sorry that any of this seems strange to you.
I can't answer on behalf of my ex, whom I still care about, regarding what might have been her perspective. From my perspective I had always been clear that I never felt the need for a marriage - children yes - in maintaining a mutually loving and respectful relationship. It seems to be that people are less inclined to take their partner for granted if the only bond they have holding them together is their treatment of each other, their performance as such. It is in both their interests to treat each other as they want to be treated.

Reminds me of employment, if you work in the private sector you are motivated to perform to your utmost otherwise you get dropped... marriage would be more like the public sector where you can do what you like and are protected by the system and the union (of marriage).... who wants to join a union for feck sake.

intheclouds

minikin wrote: »

Thanks for your questions, I'm sorry that any of this seems strange to you.
I can't answer on behalf of my ex, whom I still care about, regarding what might have been her perspective. From my perspective I had always been clear that I never felt the need for a marriage - children yes - in maintaining a mutually loving and respectful relationship. It seems to be that people are less inclined to take their partner for granted if the only bond they have holding them together is their treatment of each other, their performance as such. It is in both their interests to treat each other as they want to be treated.

Reminds me of employment, if you work in the private sector you are motivated to perform to your utmost otherwise you get dropped... marriage would be more like the public sector where you can do what you like and are protected by the system and the union (of marriage).... who wants to join a union for feck sake.

I can't really agree with the logic here. Relationships can end easily and so can marriages, as you have found out. Being married is no guarantee of staying together anymore. Back in the day before we had divorce maybe but not now.

minikin

That's ok, you're not compelled to agree with the logic.

Marriages can end easily?
Really? How does that work?
I'm in hell because of this marriage breakup.
How do I make the process easier?

The logic behind my point was that some people are more inclined to behave better, before they have a ring on their finger, which improves the chances of a more sustainable relationship.

I'd appreciate if there was no more questioning of my particular personal situation. It's hard enough trying to come to terms with it and only seeing my daughter when the ex's mood facilitates it.

I'm only giving one perspective, which is valid for me because it's been my first hand experience.
I'm not saying this is the way it is for everyone.
If you have doubts about marriage DON'T DO IT.
If you both have no doubts then of course DO IT.

MeatTwoVeg

Thanks to the institution of marriage I was able to stop showering everyday and pile on the pounds.
I've never been happier.

Hoboo

Why buy the cow, when you can have the milk for free?

intheclouds

minikin wrote: »

That's ok, you're not compelled to agree with the logic.

Marriages can end easily?
Really? How does that work?
I'm in hell because of this marriage breakup.
How do I make the process easier?

The logic behind my point was that some people are more inclined to behave better, before they have a ring on their finger, which improves the chances of a more sustainable relationship.

I'd appreciate if there was no more questioning of my particular personal situation. It's hard enough trying to come to terms with it and only seeing my daughter when the ex's mood facilitates it.

I'm only giving one perspective, which is valid for me because it's been my first hand experience.
I'm not saying this is the way it is for everyone.
If you have doubts about marriage DON'T DO IT.
If you both have no doubts then of course DO IT.

I'm not making any comment on your personal situation.

But you seem to think marriages are "safer" than relationships. They're not. Either can break up.

I can't possibly agree that people behave better without a ring on their finger, if anything I would argue the opposite.

I also made no comment on how easy it was emotionally, on either type of break up.

minikin

intheclouds wrote: »

I'm not making any comment on your personal situation.

But you seem to think marriages are "safer" than relationships. They're not. Either can break up.

I can't possibly agree that people behave better without a ring on their finger, if anything I would argue the opposite.

I also made no comment on how easy it was emotionally, on either type of break up.

You're commenting on 'what I seem to think' as if you know better than I do about my personal situation. That's crazy.

I've just come through a marriage that's been destroyed, how could I possibly think that it's safer than any other type of relationship??

The difference with marriage is that the consequences of it ending are far from equal for the husband and wife (talking heterosexual marriage because that's my experience, rather than out of disrespect for any members of LGBT community) - in general we men get our balls severed and handed back to us with a bill for the process. Some women in marriage use this nutcracker as leverage in the relationship... always have that big gun in reserve... which can sour things, so it's not truly an equal relationship.

It's your right not to agree with the behaviour point! That doesn't mean you or I are right or wrong...

I'm not having a go at your marriage, if you are married, or your opinions on it.
My opinions are my own and don't have any impact on you for your choices!

kunst nugget

intheclouds wrote: »

I can't possibly agree that people behave better without a ring on their finger, if anything I would argue the opposite.

Some people do, some people don't.

intheclouds

minikin wrote: »

You're commenting on 'what I seem to think' as if you know better than I do about my personal situation. That's crazy.

You don't seem able for someone to disagree with you without making it about yourself (as opposed to your opinions) so I'll leave it there.

Although your ball cracking comment is pure nonsense. As the higher earner in my marriage it's my balls that would be cracked in break up, not my husbands. This isn't America.

minikin

intheclouds wrote: »

You don't seem able for someone to disagree with you without making it about yourself (as opposed to your opinions) so I'll leave it there.

Although your ball cracking comment is pure nonsense. As the higher earner in my marriage it's my balls that would be cracked in break up, not my husbands. This isn't America.

You're again making a personal attack on me saying I don't seem to be able to handle disagreement... can I point out this is a public forum, we don't know each other... I'm trying to diffuse argument by saying these are just my opinions. I don't understand why you're so invested in what I'm saying...

Again you don't seem to have got the point... in my situation I got fecked over, I'm not claiming it's in every case. That's why I prefaced it with the term "in general"

You're not involved in a breakup and hopefully never will be, I wish you a long happy life together, why involve yourself in the debate when it's immaterial to you? You're the higher earner - good for you. One swallow doesn't make a summer! I'm well aware of what country I live in, thanks buddy.

eviltwin

I got married after 13 years together to make things more secure financially. I could have just not bothered, marriage never really meant that much to me. 8 years on it hasn't made any difference, we are not happier because we married but neither are we less happy. I think some posters are cynical about any kind of long term relationship, thankfully mine has been a really positive experience.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I think I know what I think about marriage but what do I know, tee-hee. Could some man who's never met me please tell me what I'm really thinking??

Seriously though I'd be ambivalent I guess. I'd do it if there was a good solid practical reason but not just because, and not before I'd been with someone for ages and through some tough times.

intheclouds

Ty Poor Bassist wrote: »

......and not before I'd been with someone for ages and through some tough times.

It must have been a nightmare in my parents day to go from dating, no sex, not living together to then being married, living together, sexual relationship etc....

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

intheclouds wrote: »

It must have been a nightmare in my parents day to go from dating, no sex, not living together to then being married, living together, sexual relationship etc....

Yep, recipe for disaster! Getting married young seems like a big risk, though fair play to the people for whom it works. Often on the relationship forums on reddit I see posts from Americans like 'I (24f) and my husband (24m) have been together for 3 years...'. I know in Ireland the age at which people get married is unusually high but anything before 25 is a serious leap in the dark I think

intheclouds

Ty Poor Bassist wrote: »

Yep, recipe for disaster!

Even worse before divorce!

Hard to believe the divorce referendum was so close - pretty much 50% said NO. I mean, why?

boardsuser1

Currently 32. I'll be between 40 & 44 getting married. Depends on what happens at 40.

Winterlong

intheclouds wrote: »

Even worse before divorce!

Hard to believe the divorce referendum was so close - pretty much 50% said NO. I mean, why?

My 92 year old widowed grandfather got out of his sickbed to vote against divorce. He was determined to follow the church's doctrine and to help 'protect' the generations that followed.
He drove the rest of us nuts.

RobertKK

intheclouds wrote: »

Even worse before divorce!

Hard to believe the divorce referendum was so close - pretty much 50% said NO. I mean, why?

I voted against it, don't see why if I married someone they have a right to half my property when it was never their property before the marriage.
Marriage is for poor people who have nothing to lose, because a person might simply be attractive for their wealth...
Pre-nuptial agreements are not legal, and civil marriage is not about love but about inheritance rights and tax breaks.
Divorce just validates how marriage is just a contract that can be broken and how people can lose a lot of wealth, or gain it...by using marriage.

Winterlong

RobertKK wrote: »

I voted against it, don't see why if I married someone they have a right to half my property when it was never their property before the marriage.
Marriage is for poor people who have nothing to lose, because a person might simply be attractive for their wealth...
Pre-nuptial agreements are not legal, and civil marriage is not about love but about inheritance rights and tax breaks.
Divorce just validates how marriage is just a contract that can be broken and how people can lose a lot of wealth, or gain it...by using marriage.

You voted against divorce because you do not believe in the need for marriage?

RobertKK

Winterlong wrote: »

You voted against divorce because you do not believe in the need for marriage?

I have never supported civil marriage, divorce made it a way to gain wealth by marrying tactfully..
Civil marriage has nothing to do with love, it is about gaining rights which one can use to their advantage via divorce.

intheclouds

RobertKK wrote: »

I voted against it, don't see why if I married someone they have a right to half my property when it was never their property before the marriage.
Marriage is for poor people who have nothing to lose, because a person might simply be attractive for their wealth...
Pre-nuptial agreements are not legal, and civil marriage is not about love but about inheritance rights and tax breaks.
Divorce just validates how marriage is just a contract that can be broken and how people can lose a lot of wealth, or gain it...by using marriage.

Eh, OK. So you don't agree with marriage therefore you want everyone else to stay married. Makes no sense at all but there you go, that's democracy for you.

You still haven't elucidated what the more up to date thing to be doing is?

pilly

intheclouds wrote: »

Id say you look like this only uglier:

http://research.pomona.edu/itsecurity/files/2014/11/Troll.jpg

DON'T FEED. :D

RobertKK

intheclouds wrote: »

Eh, OK. So you don't agree with marriage therefore you want everyone else to stay married. Makes no sense at all but there you go, that's democracy for you.

You still haven't elucidated what the more up to date thing to be doing is?

Do people think civil marriage which is marriage by the state means the state actually cares about your personal life?
It just gives the state more control over your life.

We should have had a referendum to abolish civil marriage and be progressive by removing state control over what is suppose to be about two people, when you get married there is a civil bit to it, in reality there is always three entities in a marriage, - oneself, the person you married and the state who have set down laws on what is allowed if one dies or if you divorce.
Personal agreements have no legal standing.

More and more people live together compared to the past. Civil marriage has failed despite so many people still institutionalising themselves with the state, and so many people waste lots of money on weddings.

People should like funerals have a secular non civil wedding or a religious or whatever takes their fancy and remove the state/civil element.
Married people are no more special than single people who are discriminated against for being single.
I know some people like it that the state can control their lives and choices, and a lot sign the line to copper fasten it.

intheclouds

How does the state discriminate against single people?

eviltwin

RobertKK wrote: »

I have never supported civil marriage, divorce made it a way to gain wealth by marrying tactfully..
Civil marriage has nothing to do with love, it is about gaining rights which one can use to their advantage via divorce.

Civil marriage is a way to get married without all the religious stuff. A church wedding isn't a guarantee of anything. Either can be for any number of reasons. I had a civil marriage and it was very much for love, a religious ceremony wouldn't change that.

sashafierce

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Stealthfins

sashafierce wrote:

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Exactly,lol there's loads of like you knewww kinda like middle classes buying big wedding,getting married to someone they hate....
Spending the next 3 years with nothing but the light and mouldy sausages in the fridge.

Independence suits me....sure who'd have me

paralysed

As far as I'm aware, there's evidence to suggest, that on average divorced men have shorter lives than batchelors. Anyway, I always remembered this joke:

Alan Harper: Hey Herb, congrats on your engagement - you know on average, married men live 8 years longer
Herb: What if they don't want to

sashafierce

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sashafierce

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intheclouds

sashafierce wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You must have super rich friends!! 30k+ on a wedding??

Even at the absolute height of the boom the dearest one I personally heard of was 25k.

Boom_Bap

FYI - I've had to delete loads of posts as there was a re-reg on the rampage and I tried to clean up to the carnage caused.