The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

ancapailldorcha

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't think it's so much a common mindset as the alt-right aping what they perceive as a successful strategy. They see liberals and progressives pointing out inequality and oppression and making gains as a result; they decide to claim that they're being oppressed in turn in an attempt to reverse those gains.

Interesting point. Globalisation has been leaving certain people behind and I do think they have legitimate cause for complaint. I draw the line at racism and xenophobia.

oscarBravo wrote: »

Objectively, there can be no comparison between the claims of oppression on either side. So it's not a common mindset; it's the difference between a legitimate grievance on the one hand, and bitterness at the loss of privilege on the other.

Again, I didn't make any such comparison. I only compared tactics used by both.

Sound of Silence

alastair wrote: »

We really haven't. It's merely a flag of convenience for the same old stale reactionary bile.

Your problem is that you're focusing on the Alt-Right, who are in all honestly a pretty fringe group, in spite of their activity online.

The vast majority of the backlash the modern left is receiving is in fact coming from disillusioned leftists (Myself included), who have become reluctant to associate with the movement since it's nosedive into identity politics - Which, being from Northern Ireland, I know only too well is a road to nowhere.

When things like Micro-Aggressions, Mansplaining, Toxic Masculinity, and Cultural Approriation become legitimate talking points amongst those in the left, I end up wondering whether it's either myself or the entire movement that's lost touch with the common man. Since seeing the passing of Brexit and the election of Trump, I'm beginning to think its the left.

Lackey

Brian? wrote: »

This is at least the fifth time, on various threads, present me with these SJWs committing acts of intolerance on the white man. I believe isolated examples of stupidity exist, but no one is oppressing the white man in the name of social justice.

Respectfully if this is at least the fifth time it's not isololated
I have also never used the term SJW,


You said you wanted dialogue but that involves listening to other people
I've seen people on these boards being called Nazis for merely questioning what's happening in Europe at the minute, just as much as I've seen people being called SJW's wether you want to believe that or dismiss it is up to you.

We can agree to disagree meanwhile Le Penn is on the rise in France now too, while no one listens to each other, and we accuse people of racism for questioning Cologne, Paris etc.
And tell them their not being opressed.

And the mainstream media can stay in perpetual shock over Brexit and Trump.

oscarBravo

Sound of Silence wrote: »

When things like Micro-Aggressions, Mansplaining, Toxic Masculinity, and Cultural Approriation become legitimate talking points amongst those in the left, I end up wondering whether it's either myself or the entire movement that's lost touch with the common man.

I can see why you'd think that way, if micro-aggressions, mansplaining, toxic masculinity and cultural appropriation aren't problems for you.

But that's the core of my problem with the alt-right: they're upset that people want to solve problems other than theirs.

I'm a straight white guy. None of the things you've listed are problems for me personally. But I'm not getting upset that people who aren't straight white guys would like those problems addressed.

TheOven

Brian? wrote: »

I wonder if these alt right talking heads all go to a class that teaches them a particular interview style. Milo, Ann Coulter, Katie Hopkins etc. all have the exact same delivery in interviews. They talk about what the want to talk about, regardless of the questions asked. They interrupt and behave condescendingly towards the interviewer. For me, whatever intelligent points are contained in their word salad gets lost in delivery.

Could be part of what they call red pilling. They talk about it quit a bit, how to "convert" people to their ideas.

They have a huge amount of information in how to interact with others. They would be perfect for a work at home customer service job, plnety of experience with reading from a script.

alastair

Sound of Silence wrote: »

Your problem is that you're focusing on the Alt-Right, who are in all honestly a pretty fringe group, in spite of their activity online.

The vast majority of the backlash the modern left is receiving is in fact coming from disillusioned leftists (Myself included), who have become reluctant to associate with the movement since it's nosedive into identity politics - Which, being from Northern Ireland, I know only too well is a road to nowhere.

When things like Micro-Aggressions, Mansplaining, Toxic Masculinity, and Cultural Approriation become legitimate talking points amongst those in the left, I end up wondering whether it's either myself or the entire movement that's lost touch with the common man. Since seeing the passing of Brexit and the election of Trump, I'm beginning to think its the left.

In fairness, it's a thread about the alt-right. And I doubt that this 'nosedive' is as central to left-wing politics as you imagine.

super_furry

alastair wrote: »

I'm not buying it. I suspect you've fallen hook, line and sinker for pretty weak bait. The modern left is the same range of opinions and perspectives it's ever been.

I'm not so sure about that anymore unfortunately, either that or the extreme voices seem to be shouting the louder and getting the most attention. There seems to be more group-think and introspective hyper-analysis of things that in the grand scheme of things, aren't as important as the people pushing them believe they are.

People get so wrapped up and married to concepts like cultural appropriation and micro aggressions, that they make people switch off and I believe they lose sight of what matters to the everyday person. Being told that you're racist if you enjoy yoga or that making a bad Dad-joke pun is tantamount to sexual assault is going to push people away.

alastair

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'm not overly bothered what you buy. I'm a liberal and I make no apologies for it. I'm pro-immigration, pro-markets, pro-welfare state, pro-Universal healthcare and pro-free speech. On the last of those, much of the calls for censorship and restrictions of free speech are coming from the left.

No need to be tetchy. No-one is asking for apologies from you. But if you have a half-baked point, I'll not apologise for pointing out it's not exactly cooked.

Sound of Silence

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't think it's so much a common mindset as the alt-right aping what they perceive as a successful strategy. They see liberals and progressives pointing out inequality and oppression and making gains as a result; they decide to claim that they're being oppressed in turn in an attempt to reverse those gains.

Objectively, there can be no comparison between the claims of oppression on either side. So it's not a common mindset; it's the difference between a legitimate grievance on the one hand, and bitterness at the loss of privilege on the other.

What privilege is being lost?

When people say "Alt-Right", I'm not sure if they're referring to that specific movement, or whether they're using it as something of a catch-all for what I would describe as the general opposition to the modern liberal movement. The Alt-Right are generally considered another side of the collectivist coin among the opposition.

Those who simply oppose the lefts over-concern with identity politics, whether they be on the left or right politically, tend to be united in their opposition to social engineering. They view the Left's idea of "Privilege" and the "Progressive Stack" as lacking any sort of nuance, since it tends to focus on identity (Gender/Racial/Religious) as being the ultimate determinant in a persons life. They argue that artificially pushing for total Gender and Racial representation in all spheres of life is as not being truly representative of equality, since it doesn't change the system, just the results.

alastair

super_furry wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that anymore unfortunately, either that or the extreme voices seem to be shouting the louder and getting the most attention. There seems to be more group-think and introspective hyper-analysis of things that in the grand scheme of things, aren't as important as the people pushing them believe they are.

People get so wrapped up and married to concepts like cultural appropriation and micro aggressions, that they make people switch off and I believe they lose sight of what matters to the everyday person. Being told that you're racist if you enjoy yoga or that making a bad Dad-joke pun is tantamount to sexual assault is going to push people away.

Thing is - this isn't any reality I'm familiar with. It sounds like cartoon caricature.

Rainman16

According to Ivana Trump. Donald Trump kept a book of Hitlers speeches at his bedside

Sound of Silence

oscarBravo wrote: »

I can see why you'd think that way, if micro-aggressions, mansplaining, toxic masculinity and cultural appropriation aren't problems for you.

But that's the core of my problem with the alt-right: they're upset that people want to solve problems other than theirs.

I'm a straight white guy. None of the things you've listed are problems for me personally. But I'm not getting upset that people who aren't straight white guys would like those problems addressed.

The problem I have with them is that they are issues with no discernible solution beyond either brainwashing or the general Policing of language. It doesn't help that "issues" like Mansplaining and Micro-Aggressions are incredibly subjective and tend to be based entirely on someone's own interpretation.

Does the left really want to bring the level of discourse on race and sexism to such paranoid and petty levels?

super_furry

alastair wrote: »

Thing is - this isn't any reality I'm familiar with. It sounds like cartoon caricature.

It absolutely is a cartoon caricature but in the absence of a genuine credible voice from the left, it's what's being presented as the mainstream beliefs of the left. I think that in part, the rise of the alt-right, is a response to that. Alt-right people believe that everyone on the left thinks yoga is cultural appropriation or that saying your name is Hugh Mungus is sexual assault. There's a vacuum of credible leadership voices on the left and this is kind of stuff that's filling it.

Phoebas

super_furry wrote: »

It absolutely is a cartoon caricature but in the absence of a genuine credible voice from the left, it's what's being presented as the mainstream beliefs of the left. I think that in part, the rise of the alt-right, is a response to that. Alt-right people believe that everyone on the left thinks yoga is cultural appropriation or that saying your name is Hugh Mungus is sexual assault. There's a vacuum of credible leadership voices on the left and this is kind of stuff that's filling it.

That 'high mungus' lady is crazy/funny, but I think its really just an example of how a crazy people and the internet are a potent mix.
Lunatics always existed, but prior to the internet they'd never get this level of exposure. I wouldn't say she's representative of anything really.

20Cent

So it's out in the open now. There was an alt-right conference in Washington DC. The person who first coined the term Richard Spencer spoke. Video below shows Nazi salutes, racist rhetoric, "leftists and cucks", all the same stuff you hear from some of the right wing posters on here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o6-bi3jlxk

Maybe time to drop the alt right term and go with what they are white supremacists.

Brian?

Amazingfun wrote: »

You said this :



This is not "debate". That smacks of emotionalism, i.e, "triggering".

And anyways, what is there to debate about people expressing their opinions on a host of contemporary issues? They exist and have every right to. You don't like them, that is clear, but so what?

This exactly what I'm talking about. You belittle and hector my earlier posts until you get a one liner you can pull out. Then you selectively edit an older post to make it look like I'm the one being unreasonable and emotional. Well done, Milo and Ann would be proud. This is the online version of shouting over someone.

How about you address the points I made rather than the points you want to address?

I don't believe the alt right have any legitimate grievances. The white man is not being oppressed. At worst, white culture in the US is being lost. But IMO that's a great thing.

professore

Brian? wrote: »

This exactly what I'm talking about. You belittle and hector my earlier posts until you get a one liner you can pull out. Then you selectively edit an older post to make it look like I'm the one being unreasonable and emotional. Well done, Milo and Ann would be proud. This is the online version of shouting over someone.

How about you address the points I made rather than the points you want to address?

I don't believe the alt right have any legitimate grievances. The white man is not being oppressed. At worst, white culture in the US is being lost. But IMO that's a great thing.

In respect of divorce and family law men (not just white men) are very much oppressed. Anything to do with crime, men get much harsher sentences than women. A 20 year old woman can have sex with a 10 year old boy and it's sexual assault. Reverse the genders and it's statutory rape, carrying much harsher penalties ( rightly so). In fact a woman cannot be convicted of rape, only the lesser charge of sexual assault.

Domestic violence is another one - it can only happen to women apparently, despite every reputable survey saying otherwise. Mental torture, demeaning and controlling of husbands by wives is extremely common but ignored completely by the mainstream media.

There are lots of other examples of legitimate grievances that are just not taken seriously, and in fact make you a misogynist for even suggesting they exist.

Then the worst one of all, feminism saying it's about equal rights. It isn't. It just wants men to cry and everything will be fine.

This is why people like Milo are popular. No one else is even allowed to discuss these issues. It's no coincidence he's gay, a straight man would never get away with the stuff he comes out with. Mens rights activists are automatically classed as hate groups.

It's the suppression of free speech by promoting the lunatics on the far left that have created the likes of him, no question.

Special Circumstances

Brian? wrote: »

I don't believe the alt right have any legitimate grievances. The white man is not being oppressed. At worst, white culture in the US is being lost. But IMO that's a great thing.

Ah... The "basket of deplorables" argument to dismiss anyone who won't just swallow the wackiest of pandering and like it.

Brian?

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Ah... The "basket of deplorables" argument to dismiss anyone who won't just swallow the wackiest of pandering and like it.

I have no idea what you're referring to.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're getting your talking point in, regardless of what I said.

Brian?

professore wrote: »

In respect of divorce and family law men (not just white men) are very much oppressed. Anything to do with crime, men get much harsher sentences than women. A 20 year old woman can have sex with a 10 year old boy and it's sexual assault. Reverse the genders and it's statutory rape, carrying much harsher penalties ( rightly so). In fact a woman cannot be convicted of rape, only the lesser charge of sexual assault.

Domestic violence is another one - it can only happen to women apparently, despite every reputable survey saying otherwise. Mental torture, demeaning and controlling of husbands by wives is extremely common but ignored completely by the mainstream media.

You had me nodding along with you for a bit there. Right until you said it's ignored by the mainstream media. It's not ignored by the mainstream media at all.

There are lots of other examples of legitimate grievances that are just not taken seriously, and in fact make you a misogynist for even suggesting they exist.

There are plenty of legitimate grievances. If people call you a misogynist for raising them, they are idiots.

Then the worst one of all, feminism saying it's about equal rights. It isn't. It just wants men to cry and everything will be fine.

This is why people like Milo are popular. No one else is even allowed to discuss these issues. It's no coincidence he's gay, a straight man would never get away with the stuff he comes out with. Mens rights activists are automatically classed as hate groups.

It's the suppression of free speech by promoting the lunatics on the far left that have created the likes of him, no question.

Feminism is about equal rights.

Can you post some examples of these "lunatics" on the far left please?

Special Circumstances

Brian? wrote: »

I have no idea what you're referring to.

This is exactly what I'm talking about, you're getting your talking point in, regardless of what I said.

"White culture is being lost" you say (I assume you have a very narrow definition of what "white culture"is) and you think it's a great thing.

Do you think this "white culture" is deplorable? Do you find anyone that doesnt subscribe to your righton opinions deplorable?

alastair

Special Circumstances wrote: »

"White culture is being lost" you say (I assume you have a very narrow definition of what "white culture"is) and you think it's a great thing.

Do you think this "white culture" is deplorable? Do you find anyone that doesnt subscribe to your righton opinions deplorable?

Just to be clear - you've no idea what was meant by the term, and yet you've deduced that; A. it's 'deplorable', and B. It's a sign of general intolerance?
Talk about faux indignation!

alastair

super_furry wrote: »

It absolutely is a cartoon caricature but in the absence of a genuine credible voice from the left, it's what's being presented as the mainstream beliefs of the left.
...
There's a vacuum of credible leadership voices on the left and this is kind of stuff that's filling it.

There's no vacuum of credible voices on the left. That's simply untrue.

Brian?

Special Circumstances wrote: »

"White culture is being lost" you say (I assume you have a very narrow definition of what "white culture"is) and you think it's a great thing.

I have a very broad definition actually. I think an increasingly permissive society is a great thing. Multiculturalism is a truly wonderful thing.

Do you think this "white culture" is deplorable? Do you find anyone that doesnt subscribe to your righton opinions deplorable?

You got your talking points in. Well done. I have never called anyone deplorable and would be very unlikely to do so. Can we discuss what I actually said instead of what you think I said?

ancapailldorcha

alastair wrote: »

There's no vacuum of credible voices on the left. That's simply untrue.

Care to name a few?

oscarBravo

Sound of Silence wrote: »

What privilege is being lost?

Are you asking because you genuinely don't understand what is meant by the word, or as part of the standard "working class men don't have any privileges" reaction?

When people say "Alt-Right", I'm not sure if they're referring to that specific movement, or whether they're using it as something of a catch-all for what I would describe as the general opposition to the modern liberal movement.

That's a blurred line. Opposition to liberalism implies conservatism. Liberalism for me means tolerance and equality - why would you oppose that?

Those who simply oppose the lefts over-concern with identity politics, whether they be on the left or right politically, tend to be united in their opposition to social engineering. They view the Left's idea of "Privilege" and the "Progressive Stack" as lacking any sort of nuance, since it tends to focus on identity (Gender/Racial/Religious) as being the ultimate determinant in a persons life. They argue that artificially pushing for total Gender and Racial representation in all spheres of life is as not being truly representative of equality, since it doesn't change the system, just the results.

I'd argue in turn that "identity politics" is a term used to downplay the legitimate concerns of people who have problems you don't share.

I get the overarching theory that if we were to dismantle society as we know it and replace it with a completely different version that had egalitarianism at its heart, then it theoretically wouldn't matter whether you were black or white, male or female, gay or straight. In the meantime, while we're waiting for the revolution, some groups of people have an objectively much harder time of it, simply because of who they are. Deriding this as "identity politics" is, to put it mildly, less than helpful.

Sound of Silence wrote: »

The problem I have with them is that they are issues with no discernible solution beyond either brainwashing or the general Policing of language. It doesn't help that "issues" like Mansplaining and Micro-Aggressions are incredibly subjective and tend to be based entirely on someone's own interpretation.

That's a re-statement of my point: you personally are not a victim of these problems, therefore it's irritating to you that anyone would want to focus energy on them.

Does the left really want to bring the level of discourse on race and sexism to such paranoid and petty levels?

What you consider "paranoid and petty" is the real-world daily lived experience of someone whose circumstances are different from yours.

I don't get how you think we're going to solve problems of racism and sexism by telling the people who describe what it's like to live with those problems to just shut up about it, already.

alastair

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Care to name a few?

Which nation is your preference?

ancapailldorcha

alastair wrote: »

Which nation is your preference?

The UK and the US.

Special Circumstances

alastair wrote: »

Just to be clear - you've no idea what was meant by the term, and yet you've deduced that; A. it's 'deplorable', and B. It's a sign of general intolerance?
Talk about faux indignation!

It's a simple question.
Does brian regard this waning "white culture" deplorable?

From my reading of his post, I formed an opinion that he had a negative and condescending opinion on this "white culture".

I can't be the only one to have picked up on that condescension. It's not faux indignation to say a post sounded condescending, is it?

Is "white culture" deplorable or not?

Special Circumstances

Brian? wrote: »

I have a very broad definition actually. I think an increasingly permissive society is a great thing. Multiculturalism is a truly wonderful thing.



You got your talking points in. Well done. I have never called anyone deplorable and would be very unlikely to do so. Can we discuss what I actually said instead of what you think I said?

Ah, so no one individual and no culture is deplorable. But it's good if a particular culture dies out.... would you say that rather than being deplorable it was "below average? Mediocre? So so? Pretty good but could do better, should die out all the same? Too awesome, best to kill it off to give others a chance?

Is it a good thing for ANY culture to be lost, or just some of them?