The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

The_A

I'm not sure if this has already been duscused but what about the theory claiming that Trump could be a democrat plant in the aim of making the Republican Party look bad. Even though he has won could that be the ultimate step to destroy the U.S just for the sake of turning people away from a party, I doubt this but could it be?

marienbad

The_A wrote: »

I'm not sure if this has already been duscused but what about the theory claiming that Trump could be a democrat plant in the aim of making the Republican Party look bad. Even though he has won could that be the ultimate step to destroy the U.S just for the sake of turning people away from a party, I doubt this but could it be?

Why would the Democrats want to destroy the US ?

The_A

marienbad wrote: »

Why would the Democrats want to destroy the US ?

Yes that's why I doubt this theory it's a bit like 9/11 conspiracy theories about Bush supposedly orchestrating the attack on the twin towers to justify a war

marienbad

The_A wrote: »

Yes that's why I doubt this theory it's a bit like 9/11 conspiracy theories about Bush supposedly orchestrating the attack on the twin towers to justify a war

I just can't get my head round how you or anyone can even consider this stuff.

The_A

marienbad wrote: »

I just can't get my head round how you or anyone can even consider this stuff.

I migh have considered trump being a plant a few months ago but I just wanted to see if people really believed it

marienbad

The_A wrote: »

I migh have considered trump being a plant a few months ago but I just wanted to see if people really believed it

Why would you even consider Trump was a plant ?

The_A

marienbad wrote: »

Why would you even consider Trump was a plant ?

I don't actually consider Trump to be a plant, I just want to see other people's opinions and try to understand why they would thinks so and then make my own conclusion

marienbad

The_A wrote: »

I don't actually consider Trump to be a plant, I just want to see other people's opinions and try to understand why they would thinks so and then make my own conclusion

I doubt anyone does , but whatever floats your boat

FA Hayek

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't even know how to respond to a question that's that devoid of logic. You think you need to be a good person to win election? You think everyone who has won an election axiomatically turns out to be an effective ruler?

Bizarre.

Now, who is putting words into my mouth now For someone who always complains about this, you are well versed into doing the same yourself. Cake and eating it, yes?

Logic dictates that if you think Trump was an appalling candidate, then by mere nothing Hillary was worse as she lost.

Brian?

FA Hayek wrote: »

Now, who is putting words into my mouth now For someone who always complains about this, you are well versed into doing the same yourself. Cake and eating it, yes?

Logic dictates that if you think Trump was an appalling candidate, then by mere nothing Hillary was worse as she lost.

Logic does not dictate that at all. There are too many variables to draw a conclusion based on the electoral result alone. It's an over simplification to use the result as a measure of the candidate.

My no objective measurement was Trump a better candidate. But then objective measures don't win elections.

Billy86

Amazingfun wrote: »

Billy: You just don't get it, I didn't ever defend anything that any of these people do. Andrew Anglin isn't Richard Spencer, and what the Daily Stormer prints is their own business, why the hell would anyone defend what they say or don't say about all this......to you :pac: Who cares what you think about it? They don't, and I don't, that's for sure. The link was to their take on all the drama, but especially pertaining to slimy Cernovich.

It doesn't matter whether or not Tila et al was featured in the clips you posted repeatedly, imagining them some kind of weapon, lol, she was there: it's documented in pics and by her own admission. So it all relates to context, that being the Endless Troll, which in and of itself is THE essence of the AltRight. No matter how many times this is conveyed to you, you just cannot grasp it. And that too is entertaining!

Oh no I get it, I fully get it - and you did defend them by making excuses. I mean because Richard Spencer says he is not a white supremacist, the white supremacist stuff he says doesn't count, right? And it's not his followers fault his followers can't stop doing Nazi salutes as he quotes Nazi propaganda... the Asians and the Jews made them do it! Or they were just a little over exuberant, sure who doesn't fling about the auld seig heils and Nazi quotes in times of happiness!? Ah no wait, they were just trolling - that seems to be the latest excuse. Yeah, trolling, yeah... that'll do!

Meanwhile, Andrew Anglin is organising an anti-Jewish neo Nazi march in Richard Spencer's name and defense in Spencer's own home town, while also going off on one because a different person in the alt right doesn't want Nazi salutes etc at this "Deploraball" function (barring Spencer from it already because of his White Supremacist actions)... and Spencer has said nothing against any of it. But he has tried to claim that it will not lead to any violence... and also that any violence it does lead to will not be their fault (because he knows well it could lead to violence). Hey who knows, they might get even more exuberant than they did at his 'Heil Trump' speech and bust in some Jewish heads, because again... who doesn't do that kind of thing when they're all giddy and excited?

midnight city

Brian? wrote: »

My no objective measurement was Trump a better candidate. But then objective measures don't win elections.

Trump was a better candidate if you believe in less immigration to the west. Many many many people do.

Brian?

midnight city wrote: »

Trump was a better candidate if you believe in less immigration to the west. Many many many people do.

Again, a subjective metric.

Brian?

midnight city wrote: »

Trump was a better candidate if you believe in less immigration to the west. Many many many people do.

Hillary was a better candidate because she was much less likely to get lost in the White House. Many many many people believe that's important.

Advbrd

The_A wrote: »

I migh have considered trump being a plant a few months ago but I just wanted to see if people really believed it

I still consider Trump a plant: a turnip.
Considering him to be a democratic plant is totally nonsensical.
As for the Bush/9 11 theory, that really belongs in the conspiracy theory dustbin.

Count Dooku

marienbad wrote: »

Why would the Democrats want to destroy the US ?

They don't
They simply cannot foresee consequences of their actions

marienbad

Count Dooku wrote: »

They don't
They simply cannot foresee consequences of their actions

God help us if voters really believe this stuff .

Count Dooku

marienbad wrote: »

God help us if voters really believe this stuff .

I afraid to disappoint you, but voters started to believe own eyes, not liberal propaganda
This is why Trump won, despite nearly all US media turned against him

ancapailldorcha

Raise the standard and take the conspiracy talk somewhere else please.

Amazingfun

Billy86 wrote: »

Oh no I get it, I fully get it - and you did defend them by making excuses. I mean because Richard Spencer says he is not a white supremacist, the white supremacist stuff he says doesn't count, right? And it's not his followers fault his followers can't stop doing Nazi salutes as he quotes Nazi propaganda... the Asians and the Jews made them do it! Or they were just a little over exuberant, sure who doesn't fling about the auld seig heils and Nazi quotes in times of happiness!? Ah no wait, they were just trolling - that seems to be the latest excuse. Yeah, trolling, yeah... that'll do!

Meanwhile, Andrew Anglin is organising an anti-Jewish neo Nazi march in Richard Spencer's name and defense in Spencer's own home town, while also going off on one because a different person in the alt right doesn't want Nazi salutes etc at this "Deploraball" function (barring Spencer from it already because of his White Supremacist actions)... and Spencer has said nothing against any of it. But he has tried to claim that it will not lead to any violence... and also that any violence it does lead to will not be their fault (because he knows well it could lead to violence). Hey who knows, they might get even more exuberant than they did at his 'Heil Trump' speech and bust in some Jewish heads, because again... who doesn't do that kind of thing when they're all giddy and excited?

Round and round we go, with you continuously claiming I make excuses, lol, when I never do. It's a bore, and you have close to zero understanding of either side, despite your great confidence in imagining you do. It's all a script of your own design that, by God, you will implement, damn the reality!

Bottom line: Spencer isn't a "supremacist", Cernovich is not in the Alt Right, the Roman Salutes were done at the end of a conference where energy was high, trollin was the name of the game, and great fun was had. Really, who cares?!

As for the far more serious issue in Whitefish, that of two Jewish-led "community" groups, one of which engaged in outright extortion against a family member, (the mother of Spencer with whom they disagree politically) in a disgusting attempt to get at him by depriving her of her own property and business, and getting money in their own pockets in the process: GOOD on Anglin for organizing a pushback march.

I already know you and a few of your fellow travelers think he (Spencer) "deserves" it and should just lay down like a good doggie and allow himself to be railroaded by these criminals, but I am very glad he isn't.

You act like this is some kind of aggression on the part of Spencer, when every shred of evidence, and the timeline of events, prove otherwise.
But don't let facts interrupt your creative process, as per the hysterical narrative above : innocent jews fall victim to mean n nasty nazis!!!!

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

InTheTrees

Amazingfun wrote: »

As for the far more serious issue in Whitefish, that of two Jewish-led "community" groups.

Obviously you're fully on board with them but do you seriously you think that's a worthy fight?

A quaint little tourist town in the mountains and the neo nazis want to come in and rid the place of jews??

It's like neo nazis trying to take over Clifden and scare off the tourists, it makes no sense beyond some adolescent need for attention and to feel important.

Billy86

Amazingfun wrote: »

Round and round we go, with you continuously claiming I make excuses, lol, when I never do. It's a bore, and you have close to zero understanding of either side, despite your great confidence in imagining you do. It's all a script of your own design that, by God, you will implement, damn the reality!

Bottom line: Spencer isn't a "supremacist", Cernovich is not in the Alt Right, the Roman Salutes were done at the end of a conference where energy was high, trollin was the name of the game, and great fun was had. Really, who cares?!

"Roman salutes" - classic!

Anyway, here you are 'not making excuses'...

Amazingfun wrote: »

It was an asian porn star, Tila Tequila, and two jewish guys, who started that stuff, they were doing it all through the weekend, ironically obviously. It was the end of a high energy conference and was, as Spencer said, a spillover of exuberance when others joined in.

...like I said, I don't think you're even fooling yourself at this stage.

As for the far more serious issue in Whitefish, that of two Jewish-led "community" groups, one of which engaged in outright extortion against a family member, (the mother of Spencer with whom they disagree politically) in a disgusting attempt to get at him by depriving her of her own property and business, and getting money in their own pockets in the process: GOOD on Anglin for organizing a pushback march.

They were looking for a donation for a charity, agree with it or not I'm not even remotely surprised you tried to twist that into Jewish people trying to line their own pockets. But hey, you're supporting neo Nazi armed marches to shut Jews up about protesting against Nazi propaganda being used towards and by a bunch of White Supremacists using Nazi salutes (or anyone from supporting them), so I'm really not in the last bit surprised.

I already know you and a few of your fellow travelers think he (Spencer) "deserves" it and should just lay down like a good doggie and allow himself to be railroaded by these criminals, but I am very glad he isn't.

I think he should apologise for using Nazi propaganda and goading on White Supremacists, but that's not something White Supremacists tend to do so I'm not exactly expecting it, either.

You act like this is some kind of aggression on the part of Spencer, when every shred of evidence, and the timeline of events, prove otherwise.
But don't let facts interrupt your creative process, as per the hysterical narrative above : innocent jews fall victim to mean n nasty nazis!!!!

Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Timeline of events:
1. Spencer uses Nazi propaganda and goads on White Supremacists in their use of Nazi salutes during his speech.
2. Jewish group protest this.
3. Anglin (organises anti Jewish neo Nazi march in this small town as a response, in defense and the name of Richard Spencer.
4. Spencer does nothing to downplay the situation, is thus more than happy for anti Jewish neo Nazi march to proceed.

It's that simple. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. And Richard Spencer is just that, a White Supremacist. You can keep pretending he's not to yourself all you want, but it's clear that you're not fooling anyone, with the possible exception of yourself.

frostyjacks

It's incredible that the media only report one half of the story, completely ignoring the reason why action had to be taken in the first place.

http://mtpr.org/post/whitefish-celebrates-hanukkah-spite-harassment

It's typical victimhood behaviour from these people, with the obligatory reference to a Holocaust survivor. Fake news if ever I saw it.

midnight city

Billy86 wrote: »

"Roman salutes" - classic!

Anyway, here you are 'not making excuses'...



...like I said, I don't think you're even fooling yourself at this stage.

They were looking for a donation for a charity, agree with it or not I'm not even remotely surprised you tried to twist that into Jewish people trying to line their own pockets. But hey, you're supporting neo Nazi armed marches to shut Jews up about protesting against Nazi propaganda being used towards and by a bunch of White Supremacists using Nazi salutes (or anyone from supporting them), so I'm really not in the last bit surprised.

I think he should apologise for using Nazi propaganda and goading on White Supremacists, but that's not something White Supremacists tend to do so I'm not exactly expecting it, either.


Timeline of events:
1. Spencer uses Nazi propaganda and goads on White Supremacists in their use of Nazi salutes during his speech.
2. Jewish group protest this.
3. Anglin (organises anti Jewish neo Nazi march in this small town as a response, in defense and the name of Richard Spencer.
4. Spencer does nothing to downplay the situation, is thus more than happy for anti Jewish neo Nazi march to proceed.

It's that simple. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. And Richard Spencer is just that, a White Supremacist. You can keep pretending he's not to yourself all you want, but it's clear that you're not fooling anyone, with the possible exception of yourself.

I'm no fan of Spencer as i already mentioned. But truth matters. What happened was after the publicity surrounding his hail trump speech at the npi conference was blown up in the media. A number of people in his home town who happened to have Jewish people among them (if that matters) decided they weren't going to tolerate Spencer living in whitefish. They began a campaign against him which included targeting his mother. Only then did a backlash against those targeting her begin. Spencer and his family live in the small town. They were happy to exist quietly there.

InTheTrees

midnight city wrote: »

They were happy to exist quietly there.

Except this "Spencer" character has his headquarters in Whitefish doesn't he?

That's hardly existing quietly.

InTheTrees

frostyjacks wrote: »

typical victimhood behaviour from these people, with the obligatory reference to a Holocaust survivor.

I couldn't click on your link. Can you give us an idea of what it says?

"Typical victimhood" is referring to Jews is it?

InTheTrees

midnight city wrote: »

A number of people in his home town who happened to have Jewish people among them (if that matters) decided they weren't going to tolerate Spencer living in whitefish. They began a campaign against him which included targeting his mother.

Honestly it sounds like a contrived invented reason so the Nazis can feel enraged about Jews.

Nazis try and establish a base in a quiet tourist town and oh shock horror the evil Jews are now targeting the Nazis mother?

Is here any actual evidence of this?

InTheTrees

midnight city wrote: »

A number of people in his home town who happened to have Jewish people among them (if that matters) decided they weren't going to tolerate Spencer living in whitefish. They began a campaign against him which included targeting his mother. Only then did a backlash against those targeting her begin. Spencer and his family live in the small town.

The Nazis are planning a march with imported skinheads from the bay area as a show of force to intimidate the local Jews.

The "backlash" is that Spencer now realises he has united the town against his organisation (and against his mother!) and he's now trying to say the march was just a joke. But the Nazis are still planning on converging on Whitefish next month as planned.

Billy86

frostyjacks wrote: »

It's incredible that the media only report one half of the story, completely ignoring the reason why action had to be taken in the first place.

http://mtpr.org/post/whitefish-celebrates-hanukkah-spite-harassment

It's typical victimhood behaviour from these people, with the obligatory reference to a Holocaust survivor. Fake news if ever I saw it.

"These people". Go on. Use the word. You know you want to.

Billy86

InTheTrees wrote: »

I couldn't click on your link. Can you give us an idea of what it says?

"Typical victimhood" is referring to Jews is it?

It's really bone chilling stuff, clearly fake news that Christmas and Hanukkah fell together this year. Must be a conspiracy of some sort from "those people".

A few days before the start of Hanukkah, a small group gathered on a street corner in downtown Whitefish, holding stacks of paper menorahs. Joan Vetter Ehrenberg, a volunteer for Love Lives Here, a branch of the Montana Human Rights Network, reads an explanation from the back of the menorah:

"Obviously in response to the anti-semitic targeting of our local friends and neighbors in Whitefish, Love Lives Here invites everyone in the valley to hang a menorah in the window ..."

It’s been two weeks since a neo-Nazi website posted photos and contact information for several Jewish people in Whitefish and encouraged online harassment. Three families in town and a dozen businesses were targeted. Vetter Ehrenberg explains the paper menorahs are a show of solidarity:

"What we're doing now is important, is community," she says. "It's going to take a while for us to get our message through to folks, so understand that it's small steps of kindness and action that accumulate towards something that will make a difference."

Vetter Ehrenberg hands out the paper menorahs and a half-dozen volunteers disperse to deliver them around town.

One of them, Dianne Grove, says, "It's a beautiful, chilly evening to spread some love around Whitefish."

...

A few mornings later, paper menorahs peek from half the windows in downtown neighborhoods. It’s a small thing, but for people who celebrate Hanukkah every year as part of their Jewish faith, seeing menorahs in their neighbors’ windows means a lot.

"I'm actually more inspired to celebrate the holiday now because of everything going on," says one member of the Flathead Valley's 100 or so Jewish families. "You know, like, put out the menorah, put up the lights. I even have a Christmas tree."

This woman asked me not to use her name because she doesn’t want to risk getting targeted for online harassment, adding she feels like she already has.

"If you're from the human race and somebody gets targeted, then everybody gets targeted," she says. "I'm seeing this community really pull it together, really step forward. I've always seen that here, it's part of what's so enjoyable about living in Whitefish, is the people that live here and the people that come here."

She says the people fanning the anti-semitic flames are playing to our base nature.

"We all have a low nature, we all have a high nature," she says. "Some of us live more in the low nature, some of us more in the high and some of us flip in between. The tendency of the mind is to divide, is to separate, and we all have to work with our mind and practice, because it is practice, aiming towards harmonizing and uniting versus dividing. Dividing is a tendency, it's always been there. Our work as human beings is to work toward the higher."

She says it’s fitting that Christmas and Hanukkah arrived at the same time this year.

"I symbolically look at that and take that as info that we're meant to step into more unity, not division," she says.

On the third night of Hanukkah, Monday, Hilary Shaw leads her family and some friends as they sing and light the candles on her family’s three menorahs in their home in Whitefish.

"My favorite part of Hanukkah is lighting the candles together as a family," Shaw says. "Standing around the light and singing, and thinking about my family members who are far away, and creating that tradition of light with my daughter and my husband."

Shaw says this year, she’s thinking about part of the Hanukkah story that’s not often told. The traditional story is that after a long war, when the Jews reclaimed Jerusalem from the Greek Empire, they set about cleansing the Second Temple so they could again practice their faith. Part of that meant burning sacred oil constantly. They only had enough for one night, but, miraculously, the oil burned for eight days. This is why Hanukkah is sometimes called the “celebration of lights.”

But that’s only part of the story, Shaw says, and it’s only the nice part. She says this story leaves out the bloody war and the sometimes shameful things the Jewish army did to reclaim their land and traditions.

"To me, this is kind of a lost opportunity, because we could be having conversations about what the war was like and what mistakes were made and who do we want to be in our own resistance and in our protest," Shaw says. "When we're fighting for our freedom, how do we treat the freedom of others? These are all conversations that are now missing, which are very relevant to us now as we figure out how we want to oppose and speak out against voices of white supremacy and anti-semitism and bigotry and hatred. This story could serve as a reminder that we need to hold on to the light."

Shaw says she sees people in Whitefish having those conversations now.

"It's like resistance, really," she says, "and I don't mean in the protest sort. I mean literally, resisting forces of hatred and sadness and responding with compassion."

Shaw says in its own way, using her real name in this interview is part of that. Her grandfather, who was a Holocaust survivor, used to warn her to shy away from direct actions like this, but Shaw chooses not to.

"I live in a different world where I don't have to lie low," Shaw says. "I can choose to, but I don't have to. I have a community that stands up for me and surrounds me in love. I have law enforcement, and I have all sorts of institutions and structures in place that make it safe for me to speak out and I'm very grateful for that. That's not lost on me for a moment."

In an unusual move on Tuesday, several of Montana’s top elected leaders issued a joint statement condemning the recent anti-semitic harassment.

Senators Jon Tester and Steve Daines, Representative Ryan Zinke, Governor Steve Bullock and Attorney General Tim Fox penned the bipartisan open letter.

"I stand with leaders of Montana to say to those few who seek to publicize anti-semitic views that they shall find no safe haven in Montana," Senator Daines said. "Any demonstration or threat of intimidation against any Montanans’ religious liberty will not be tolerated."

Mods: sorry if I quoted too much, I tried to snip out a few small paragraphs here and there to keep in forum guidelines, but with as harrowing an article as this is, well... the truth needs to get out there. First it's paper manorahs, next it's The White Man being enslaved.