The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

oscarBravo

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

For people who use the bogus term of " Islamophobia " even known moderate Imams see & recognize such a term is nonsense, this is a recent tweet from Imam Tawhidi & what he said about " Islamophobia " by attaching this screensave of his recent tweet Im quoting him .

Do you agree with everything Imam Tawhidi says, as a matter of interest?

Criticising radicals isn't bigotry: this is a truism. Terrorists must be stopped: this is a truism.

None of this changes the meaning of "Islamophobia" which is a well-understood and broadly-accepted term, except by people who want to do stupid things like link terrorism with the teachings of Islam and then get upset when accused of Islamophobia.

MadYaker

Islamophobia would mean a fear or dislike of Islam not terrorism

Sweetemotion

oscarBravo wrote: »

Do you agree with everything Imam Tawhidi says, as a matter of interest?

Criticising radicals isn't bigotry: this is a truism. Terrorists must be stopped: this is a truism.

None of this changes the meaning of "Islamophobia" which is a well-understood and broadly-accepted term, except by people who want to do stupid things like link terrorism with the teachings of Islam and then get upset when accused of Islamophobia.

It's just another word, created to stop people questioning "The teachings of Islam" because of people like you calling them an Islamaphobic.

Do you agree with all the teachings of Islam?

oscarBravo

Sweetemotion wrote: »

It's just another word, created to stop people questioning "The teachings of Islam" because of people like you calling them an Islamaphobic.

Was it? Got a source for that?

Do you agree with all the teachings of Islam?

Of course not, I'm an atheist. I don't agree with the teachings of any religions. I don't have to agree with the teachings of Islam to have a problem with idiots conflating "muslim" with "terrorist".

Sweetemotion

oscarBravo wrote: »

Was it? Got a source for that? Of course not, I'm an atheist. I don't agree with the teachings of any religions. I don't have to agree with the teachings of Islam to have a problem with idiots conflating "muslim" with "terrorist".

Who are these idiots conflating "muslim" with "terrorists"?

I didn't mention any other religions. I asked do you agree with "The teachings of Islam"?

Saying you're an atheist and saying you don't agree with all religions is avoiding the question.

ancapailldorcha

Mod: Please bear in mind that the thread is about the alt-right, not Islam in general.

Sweetemotion

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Mod: Please bear in mind that the thread is about the alt-right, not Islam in general.

What is the alt-right and who are they?

The Legend Of Kira

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

For people who use the bogus term of " Islamophobia " even known moderate Imams see & recognize such a term is nonsense, this is a recent tweet from Imam Tawhidi & what he said about " Islamophobia " by attaching this screensave of his recent tweet Im quoting him .

So what are you adding to this conversation?. Are you a supporter of the alt right?.

All depends as to who & what you yourself class & define as " Alt Right " ?  Last years general election I ll be honest as to where my main preference votes went - although not saying in which particular order ,  ( Direct Democracy Ireland Candidate ) + ( John Halligan/ Independent ) given this is where my main preference votes went would you class or define my main voting preferences as " Alt Right "  ? 

Some politicians/writers & bloggers I have great time for + respect for ( Nigel Farage ) ( Sam Harris ) ( Richard Dawkins )  ( Robert Spencer ) not to be confused with Richard Spencer who has same surname but not related to each other   -  given these four names I have mentioned would you class or define any of the 4 as " Alt Right " ? 

Like I said at start of my reply to you "  All depends as to who & what you yourself class & define as " Alt Right "

The Legend Of Kira

oscarBravo wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

For people who use the bogus term of " Islamophobia " even known moderate Imams see & recognize such a term is nonsense, this is a recent tweet from Imam Tawhidi & what he said about " Islamophobia " by attaching this screensave of his recent tweet Im quoting him .

Do you agree with everything Imam Tawhidi says, as a matter of interest?

Criticising radicals isn't bigotry: this is a truism. Terrorists must be stopped: this is a truism.

None of this changes the meaning of "Islamophobia" which is a well-understood and broadly-accepted term, except by people who want to do stupid things like link terrorism with the teachings of Islam and then get upset when accused of Islamophobia.

Quick short reply, since I 1st heard of him in the last few months from reading his posts online- I would agree with a lot of what he says as he appears to be a leader who acknowledges there is problems within Islam & that Islam needs reform, I leave my reply at that .

oscarBravo

Sweetemotion wrote: »

I asked do you agree with "The teachings of Islam"?

oscarBravo wrote: »

Of course not...

Sweetemotion wrote: »

...is avoiding the question.

If you consider "of course not" an evasive answer, I'm afraid we're divided by a common language.

oscarBravo

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I would agree with a lot of what he says as he appears to be a leader who acknowledges there is problems within Islam & that Islam needs reform...

Cool. I'll agree with that too. I disagree with his views on Islamophobia, just as I'm sure there are plenty of his views you also disagree with.

MadYaker

Apparently were in big trouble guys. Did youknow that Europe could be taken over by muslims in as little as 20 years11!!1!!1 https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/7glxiy/muslim_population_in_europe_to_triple_by_2050/

Utter madness.

Billy86

Truth is if you're on that subreddit you're reading automated text for the most part.

Odhinn

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Quick short reply, since I 1st heard of him in the last few months from reading his posts online- I would agree with a lot of what he says as he appears to be a leader who acknowledges there is problems within Islam & that Islam needs reform, I leave my reply at that .

He seems to be a self proclaimed 'prophet'

Tawhidi is not recognised as an Imam or Sheikh by either the Australian National Imams Council or its South Australian equivalent, nor is he affiliated with any Australian mosque or prayer centre. The only religious instruction he offers is a self-described "university standard" Islamic Studies class delivered from a rented classroom at the University of South Australia. Course content posted online includes rambling refutations of the Big Bang and the theory of human evolution. A video he has shared on social media depicting a sparrow repeatedly fluttering against another sparrow gives a taste of his views on the latter. The caption reads: "Watch how this bird performs CPR on another bird, something we humans won't learn without an educational training course; so who taught that bird?"

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2017/04/11/4651763.htm

The world Islamophobia dates back to the 1920's in english - 1910 or so in French btw.

dublinman1990

There was a demonstration from alt right, white supremacists & neo nazi groups at Warsaw in Poland a few weeks ago. 100K people attended the march during Poland's recent bank holiday weekend. I just thought that I put this up here because I watched a report about the march from Al Jazeera HD on the TV.

20Cent

dublinman1990 wrote: »

There was a demonstration from alt right, white supremacists & neo nazi groups at Warsaw in Poland a few weeks ago. 100K people attended the march during Poland's recent bank holiday weekend. I just thought that I put this up here because I watched a report about the march from Al Jazeera HD on the TV.

trump retweeting far right propaganda videos can't be helping either.

ancapailldorcha

20Cent wrote: »

trump retweeting far right propaganda videos can't be helping either.

Here's Nick Ferrari trying to assess Jayda Fransen's motives for propagating this:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/nick-ferraris-fiery-interview-with-jayda-fransen/

As you might expect, he makes no progress.

I do try to be open minded but it seems to me that the alt right is losing its mask and just seems to be driven solely by hatred and some perverse form of Aryanism.

Sand

dublinman1990 wrote: »

There was a demonstration from alt right, white supremacists & neo nazi groups at Warsaw in Poland a few weeks ago. 100K people attended the march during Poland's recent bank holiday weekend. I just thought that I put this up here because I watched a report about the march from Al Jazeera HD on the TV.

That's a bit of an exaggeration on all points. The march was smaller (60,000) apparently, for Independence day and the white supremacist/neo nazi element was less than 10% of the marchers. Note the strategic use of the words 'some' and 'among'. The marchers were not liberals, mostly Catholic/Nationalists but trying to describe them as 100K 'alt-right', 'white surpremacist' and 'neo-nazi' marchers is OTT.

Probably no more fascist than 1950s Ireland.

Billy86

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Here's Nick Ferrari trying to assess Jayda Fransen's motives for propagating this:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/nick-ferraris-fiery-interview-with-jayda-fransen/

As you might expect, he makes no progress.

I do try to be open minded but it seems to me that the alt right is losing its mask and just seems to be driven solely by hatred and some perverse form of Aryanism.

It's been pretty clear for well over a year to be honest, though it is good to see them continue to expose themselves. Though funny enough enough that was essentially a 7min 30sec After Hours post.

PopePalpatine

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Here's Nick Ferrari trying to assess Jayda Fransen's motives for propagating this:

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/nick-ferrari/nick-ferraris-fiery-interview-with-jayda-fransen/

As you might expect, he makes no progress.

I do try to be open minded but it seems to me that the alt right is losing its mask and just seems to be driven solely by hatred and some perverse form of Aryanism.

Does a re-naming from "neo-Nazi/fascist" count as a mask?

ancapailldorcha

Billy86 wrote: »

It's been pretty clear for well over a year to be honest, though it is good to see them continue to expose themselves. Though funny enough enough that was essentially a 7min 30sec After Hours post.

I try not to dismiss things I disagree with with single words like "racist" but with this alt right movement, that's now impossible. A friend recommended Ben Shapiro but he went straight for the "If I criticize unfettered, mass immigration, they call me racist" schtick so I just gave up.

Not sure how many people here are familiar with Britain First so I upped that link. Odd agreeing with Nick Ferrari but stranger things have happened I suppose.

The Legend Of Kira

First off regarding ( Britain First ) Im not a fan of theirs given that they re a loyalist group, lets ask the question though why have ( Britain First ) become a thing in recent years ?  when an atmosphere is created in where ordinary people are made afraid to say anything publicly remotely critical of Islam for fear of being called " racist " even though Islam is a religion or fear of being hassled or doxxed by left wing groups or fear of talking about grooming gangs what can happen to someone if they dare publicly speak about such gangs as Sarah Champion Labour Mp found out when she got demoted within her party after she wrote an article in a newspaper a few months daring to publicly address the issue, when such a atmosphere is created that certain things are off limits from public discussion it can create a vacuum for someone else to come along & fill in which what has happened with ( Britain First ) & why they have become a thing in recent years in my view, some people may or may not read Spiked Online Magazine, just yesterday Brendan o'Neill wrote an article giving somewhat of a similar analysis.


http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/britain-first-a-monster-of-the-lefts-own-making-trump-retweet/20589

ancapailldorcha

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

First off regarding ( Britain First ) Im not a fan of theirs given that they re a loyalist group, lets ask the question though why have ( Britain First ) become a thing in recent years ?  when an atmosphere is created in where ordinary people are made afraid to say anything publicly remotely critical of Islam for fear of being called " racist " even though Islam is a religion or fear of being hassled or doxxed by left wing groups or fear of talking about grooming gangs what can happen to someone if they dare publicly speak about such gangs as Sarah Champion Labour Mp found out when she got demoted within her party after she wrote an article in a newspaper a few months daring to publicly address the issue, when such a atmosphere is created that certain things are off limits from public discussion it can create a vacuum for someone else to come along & fill in which what has happened with ( Britain First ) & why they have become a thing in recent years in my view, some people may or may not read Spiked Online Magazine, just yesterday Brendan o'Neill wrote an article giving somewhat of a similar analysis.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/britain-first-a-monster-of-the-lefts-own-making-trump-retweet/20589

That's absurd. You have the likes of Nigel Farage, Britain First, Breitbart, Fox News and Donald Trump doing this with no restraint or consequences whatsoever. This pretend victimhood is just pathetic to be honest.

The Legend Of Kira

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

First off regarding ( Britain First ) Im not a fan of theirs given that they re a loyalist group, lets ask the question though why have ( Britain First ) become a thing in recent years ?  when an atmosphere is created in where ordinary people are made afraid to say anything publicly remotely critical of Islam for fear of being called " racist " even though Islam is a religion or fear of being hassled or doxxed by left wing groups or fear of talking about grooming gangs what can happen to someone if they dare publicly speak about such gangs as Sarah Champion Labour Mp found out when she got demoted within her party after she wrote an article in a newspaper a few months daring to publicly address the issue, when such a atmosphere is created that certain things are off limits from public discussion it can create a vacuum for someone else to come along & fill in which what has happened with ( Britain First ) & why they have become a thing in recent years in my view, some people may or may not read Spiked Online Magazine, just yesterday Brendan o'Neill wrote an article giving somewhat of a similar analysis.

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/britain-first-a-monster-of-the-lefts-own-making-trump-retweet/20589

That's absurd. You have the likes of Nigel Farage, Britain First, Breitbart, Fox News and Donald Trump doing this with no restraint or consequences whatsoever. This pretend victimhood is just pathetic to be honest.

I wouldn,t class Nigel Farage or Donald Trump as ordinary people as they ve lots of money + can provideo security for themselves, but even some people with money have found themselves being targeted for saying stuff critical about Islam as [font=merriweather, georgia, serif]Ayaan Hirsi Al found out in the past when she was forced into hiding due to threats .[/font]

ancapailldorcha

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I wouldn,t class Nigel Farage or Donald Trump as ordinary people as they ve lots of money + can provideo security for themselves, but even some people with money have found themselves being targeted for saying stuff critical about Islam as [font=merriweather, georgia, serif]Ayaan Hirsi Al found out in the past when she was forced into hiding due to threats .[/font]

I'm not buying it. We have freedom of speech. People criticize Islam and Muslims daily without consequence. This sort of petty whinging and attention seeking needs to stop and I'm talking about both sides there.

I remember when being right wing meant believing in the power of the individual, the earning of rewards through hard work and innovation along with limiting the state. Then they started mocking Guardian columnists and the like before deciding to outdo them on the victim claiming front for some bizarre reason.

Billy86

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I wouldn,t class Nigel Farage or Donald Trump as ordinary people as they ve lots of money + can provideo security for themselves, but even some people with money have found themselves being targeted for saying stuff critical about Islam as Ayaan Hirsi Al found out in the past when she was forced into hiding due to threats .

I'm unsure if you listened to the interview anca put up, but am curious as to how you're not up in arms over Britain First's efforts to silence the debate by so eagerly wanting an outright ban on Islam? Many times that's been your #1 gripe so it's odd to not have issue with it here.

The Legend Of Kira

Billy86 wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I wouldn,t class Nigel Farage or Donald Trump as ordinary people as they ve lots of money + can provideo security for themselves, but even some people with money have found themselves being targeted for saying stuff critical about Islam as Ayaan Hirsi Al found out in the past when she was forced into hiding due to threats .

I'm unsure if you listened to the interview anca put up, but am curious as to how you're not up in arms over Britain First's efforts to silence the debate by so eagerly wanting an outright ban on Islam? Many times that's been your #1 gripe so it's odd to not have issue with it here.

I just finished listening to it,, I thought she goes too far with her views- I wouldn,t agree with an outright ban on Islam, extremists preachers like Anjem Choundary & others like him they should be monitored by the authorities , mosques with Saudi funding with extremist preachers preaching at such mosques should also monitored by the authorities in my view, some elements of Islam Id strongly support a ban on for example in recent years Denmark banned both Halal + Kosher slaughter methods Id always favour banning both, Id always favour following France with a ban on the Burka , when someone is out in public he/she should be required to show his/her face I support the Burka being banned in the same way Id support a ban of face covering wearing masks at public protests .

Billy86

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I try not to dismiss things I disagree with with single words like "racist" but with this alt right movement, that's now impossible. A friend recommended Ben Shapiro but he went straight for the "If I criticize unfettered, mass immigration, they call me racist" schtick so I just gave up.

Not sure how many people here are familiar with Britain First so I upped that link. Odd agreeing with Nick Ferrari but stranger things have happened I suppose.

The victim card really is beyond a tired canard at this point alright. Under the surface it's been clear what the alt-right are about from a long while back - right down to the founder of the movement, Richard Spencer, being banned from Schengen for promoting and organising Neo Nazi rallies. Neither of us would deny that I'm a bit quicker to judge than you if we go back through each of our posts on a variety of matters, but for me the undoubted slipping of the mask was the 'Heil Trump!' and 'lugenpress' stuff, and not only the sheer lack of criticism of it from any of them or even those loosely associated with it, but the open celebration of it from the alt-right themselves. And of course the whole carry on in Spencer's mothers' home town, Charlottesville (not just the murder, the whole march was a glorified Neo Nazi parade) and numerous similar incidents.

The mask in my opinion stopped slipping a while back; they've pretty much just done a Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible and 'triumphantly' (in their heads) ripped it clean off by themselves.

SNIP. Please don't discuss posters who have closed accounts.

ancapailldorcha

Billy86 wrote: »

The victim card really is beyond a tired canard at this point alright. Under the surface it's been clear what the alt-right are about from a long while back - right down to the founder of the movement, Richard Spencer, being banned from Schengen for promoting and organising Neo Nazi rallies. Neither of us would deny that I'm a bit quicker to judge than you if we go back through each of our posts on a variety of matters, but for me the undoubted slipping of the mask was the 'Heil Trump!' and 'lugenpress' stuff, and not only the sheer lack of criticism of it from any of them or even those loosely associated with it, but the open celebration of it from the alt-right themselves. And of course the whole carry on in Spencer's mothers' home town, Charlottesville (not just the murder, the whole march was a glorified Neo Nazi parade) and numerous similar incidents.

The mask in my opinion stopped slipping a while back; they've pretty much just done a Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible and 'triumphantly' (in their heads) ripped it clean off by themselves.

SNIP. Please don't discuss posters who have closed accounts.

I was trying to give the "white, working class being ignored" angle a fair hearing but as I said, a few decades ago, the tabloids were pillorying them for not working hard enough. Then Eastern Europeans started turning up followed by Muslims and someone realised that said working classes could be flogged victimhood narratives instead of degradation.

Billy86

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I just finished listening to it,, I thought she goes too far with her views- I wouldn,t agree with an outright ban on Islam, extremists preachers like Anjem Choundary & others like him they should be monitored by the authorities , mosques with Saudi funding with extremist preachers preaching at such mosques should also monitored by the authorities in my view.

Ah ok that's grand, it's just a part of the interview that caught me off guard a bit - not so much in terms of her thinking that, but moreso around her being so brashly open about it. She is pretty much a walking hate speech, but typically you'd see a little bit of tact leveled, even just a veil so thin as to resemble a single layer of cling film.

I'd imagine Choundary is already quite closely monitored, though I'd rather him and others like him, on both sides, be shut down entirely. To each their own on the matter of course, but I'm not such a fan of completely unfettered free speech myself as I think it's a flawed concept. I also think it's counter-productive as hate speech and the likes only creates/worsens an 'us and them' dynamic where posters like Sand that I alluded to earlier whose points are typically very valid and well articulated get lost in or associated with those who offer nothing worthwhile beyond sewing discord and hatred. It's also a very effective tool for the extremist ends of both sides in order to attempt to smear anyone who doesn't fall in line exactly with their ethos and then fall back on 'but free speech' when called on it. That's a whole different rant for a whole different thread mind, and reading back apologies if it comes over aggressively as it's not my intention -- it's just late, it's been a long week and I'm getting cranky before bedtime.