The alt right - Mod Warning in OP

The Legend Of Kira

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I wouldn,t class Nigel Farage or Donald Trump as ordinary people as they ve lots of money + can provideo security for themselves, but even some people with money have found themselves being targeted for saying stuff critical about Islam as [font=merriweather, georgia, serif]Ayaan Hirsi Al found out in the past when she was forced into hiding due to threats .[/font]

I'm not buying it. We have freedom of speech. People criticize Islam and Muslims daily without consequence. This sort of petty whinging and attention seeking needs to stop and I'm talking about both sides there.

I remember when being right wing meant believing in the power of the individual, the earning of rewards through hard work and innovation along with limiting the state. Then they started mocking Guardian columnists and the like before deciding to outdo them on the victim claiming front for some bizarre reason.

To a certain degree we have free speech, when it comes to saying something critical about Islam publicly such free speech is limited, some examples I can point to for reference ( 1 ) last year in February an anti Islam protest was called by Pegida in Dublin , look what happened that day people suspected of being Pegida supporters were chased in the street by a big gang +  some people who were due to speak at the demo that day were attacked by a mob on the Luas with Iron bars & other weapons, Im not highlighting this as to debate the pros/cons of Pegida just highlighting it as an example of what happened to some people who wanted to say something critical about Islam publicly. ( 2 ) Molly Norris who created a facebook event page some years ago titled ( Everyone draw Muhammed ) was forced to go into hiding + forced to change her real name due to threats against her life . ( 3 ) Geert Wilders is required protection 24/7 has to sleep at different locations every night + has to wear a bulletproof vest everytime he,s out in public due to threats cause of his outspoken views on Islam. ( 4 ) back to that grooming gangs story again one woman years later publicly said & Im quoting her " [font=ScoutLight, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The woman, named Emma, said the authorities made her feel like she was being ‘racist’ during the report when she was just 13-years-old.[/font]

http://metro.co.uk/2017/05/16/police-told-rotherham-paedophile-ring-victim-not-to-say-attackers-were-asian-6640085/

What Emma said would backup Sarah Champions view that people were afraid of being called " racist " to talk about such gangs in the first place .

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4213005/labour-mp-sarah-champion-newcastle-grooming-gang-racist-child-sex-crimes/

The Legend Of Kira

Billy86 wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I just finished listening to it,, I thought she goes too far with her views- I wouldn,t agree with an outright ban on Islam, extremists preachers like Anjem Choundary & others like him they should be monitored by the authorities , mosques with Saudi funding with extremist preachers preaching at such mosques should also monitored by the authorities in my view.

Ah ok that's grand, it's just a part of the interview that caught me off guard a bit - not so much in terms of her thinking that, but moreso around her being so brashly open about it. She is pretty much a walking hate speech, but typically you'd see a little bit of tact leveled, even just a veil so thin as to resemble a single layer of cling film.

I'd imagine Choundary is already quite closely monitored, though I'd rather him and others like him, on both sides, be shut down entirely. To each their own on the matter of course, but I'm not such a fan of completely unfettered free speech myself as I think it's a flawed concept. I also think it's counter-productive as hate speech and the likes only creates/worsens an 'us and them' dynamic where posters like Sand that I alluded to earlier whose points are typically very valid and well articulated get lost in or associated with those who offer nothing worthwhile beyond sewing discord and hatred. It's also a very effective tool for the extremist ends of both sides in order to attempt to smear anyone who doesn't fall in line exactly with their ethos and then fall back on 'but free speech' when called on it. That's a whole different rant for a whole different thread mind, and reading back apologies if it comes over aggressively as it's not my intention -- it's just late, it's been a long week and I'm getting cranky before bedtime.

"" I'd imagine Choundary is already quite closely monitored, though I'd rather him and others like him, on both sides, be shut down entirely """ 

The above quote from your post Im replying to.

Id be against shutting people with such extreme views down, as if you shut them down they get driven underground in which it would make in harder for the authorities to monitor & keep an eye on , the likes of Choundary if he,s left preach his extreme views openly its easier for him to be monitored + everything he preaches in out in the open on public record, Id be more worried if people like him got driven underground as to what they d be preaching when what they re saying is no longer out in the open .

ancapailldorcha

1. People are entitled to protest a Pegida rally. The public streets of Dublin shouldn't be made into a safe space for anyone. If it were the opposite, the alt right would be having a field day.

2. This is unfortunately part and parcel of modern life. I posted liberal views on a certain page and received abuse followed by death threats. I had to contact the police who, surprise surprise were utterly useless. We just live in a world where death threats are the new routine way of silencing opinion.

3. Wilders could be using this as a publicity stunt. I'm not convinced. Even Farage has yet to trot this out.

4. Women are abused regularly in the west. The alt right only gives a crap when the perpetrator is Muslim. If he's white, he's celebrated, case in point being Donald Trump. The whole Rotherham thing is a national disgrace but it doesn't justify racists running around knocking people over and waving actual Nazi flags.

The Legend Of Kira

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

1. People are entitled to protest a Pegida rally. The public streets of Dublin shouldn't be made into a safe space for anyone. If it were the opposite, the alt right would be having a field day.

2. This is unfortunately part and parcel of modern life. I posted liberal views on a certain page and received abuse followed by death threats. I had to contact the police who, surprise surprise were utterly useless. We just live in a world where death threats are the new routine way of silencing opinion.

3. Wilders could be using this as a publicity stunt. I'm not convinced. Even Farage has yet to trot this out.

4. Women are abused regularly in the west. The alt right only gives a crap when the perpetrator is Muslim. If he's white, he's celebrated, case in point being Donald Trump. The whole Rotherham thing is a national disgrace but it doesn't justify racists running around knocking people over and waving actual Nazi flags.

( 1 ) There is a fine line between peaceful counter protest vs unprovoked assault , the rally for life back in July faced a counter protest from some pro choice people, looking at online videos from the counter protest yes there was abuse & words exchanged but there weren,t any reports of assaults or anything of that sort, the opposition to Pegida last year I wouldn,t class a protest if you going around in gangs attacking people with weapons that,s not a protest but unprovoked assault .

ancapailldorcha

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

( 1 ) There is a fine line between peaceful counter protest vs unprovoked assault , the rally for life back in July faced a counter protest from some pro choice people, looking at online videos from the counter protest yes there was abuse & words exchanged but there weren,t any reports of assaults or anything of that sort, the opposition to Pegida last year I wouldn,t class a protest if you going around in gangs attacking people with weapons that,s not a protest but unprovoked assault .

Of course but with the alt right, they're quite happy to support it when its the right people getting assaulted and worse. I'm not condoning violence perpetrated by anti-Pegida protestors by the way.

The Legend Of Kira

Spotted this video in this person,s post.

https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105432677&postcount=7750

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEaqUQvDXws

Raheem gave a similar analysis about ( Britain First ) that they get oxygen when certain things aren,t talked about or certain things are played down.

Billy86

Already picked that one apart directly below it. Forgot to add that if there were truth to his comments about not covering what's going on in the middle east (which itself if a joke of a statement the BBC presenter debunked as soon as he brought it up, re. The Egyptian guy getting thrown off a roof), then the same would be true of the lack of coverage of treating gay men as paedophile in Russia, as well as atrocities committed by Christians in places like Africa (where the Lords Resistance Army had more members than isis and a similar death toll along with millions mutilated) yet we don't have anti Christian or anti heterosexuality extremist groups gaining mass popularity in the west.

He works for breitbart, they're tired and predictable and despite his claims about not liking Britain First they peddle a lot of the same crap themselves. Case in point - https://www.google.ie/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/breitbart-sonoma-wildfires-fake-story-immigrant-started-arson-sherriff-says-a8011071.html?amp

OnDraught

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

First off regarding ( Britain First ) Im not a fan of theirs given that they re a loyalist group

Haha, some things never change. I will always find the Irish right wing lads stance of hating brown people while the Brits hate the Irish even more endlessly funny.

Odhinn

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

To a certain degree we have free speech, when it comes to saying something critical about Islam publicly such free speech is limited, some examples I can point to for reference ( 1 ) last year in February an anti Islam protest was called by Pegida in Dublin , look what happened that day people suspected of being Pegida supporters were chased in the street by a big gang +  some people who were due to speak at the demo that day were attacked by a mob on the Luas with Iron bars & other weapons, Im not highlighting this as to debate the pros/cons of Pegida just highlighting it as an example of what happened to some people who wanted to say something critical about Islam publicly........................

Trying to launch that kind of group, linked to the English Defence League, outside the GPO, in 2016, may have been a bit of a miscalculation.

Billy86

Odhinn wrote: »

Trying to launch that kind of group, linked to the English Defence League, outside the GPO, in 2016, may have been a bit of a miscalculation.

Actually miscalculation would be the very last word I would use to describe their choosing that particular place and time to be honest.

The Legend Of Kira

OnDraught wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

First off regarding ( Britain First ) Im not a fan of theirs given that they re a loyalist group

Haha, some things never change. I will always find the Irish right wing lads stance of hating brown people while the Brits hate the Irish even more endlessly funny.

Who exactly are you accusing of " hating brown people " ? can you point to anyone,s post & quote from it in where he/she said they " hate brown people "  ?

OnDraught

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Who exactly are you accusing of " hating brown people " ? can you point to anyone,s post & quote from it in where he/she said they " hate brown people "  ?

I didn't accuse anyone but you know yourself.

MysticMonk

Religions differ, and their specific differences matter.
And the truth is that Islam has doctrines regarding jihad, martyrdom, apostasy, etc., that pose a special problem to the civilized world at this moment in history.
We deny this at our peril.

Islamophobia. A word created by fascists, & used by cowards, to manipulate morons.

Sam Harris.

20Cent

The video above reminds me of another characteristic of the alt right. They just seem so gullible and willing to believe absolutely anything. Blatantly obvious fake stories are treated as gospel by them.

Billy86

But almost never expanded upon because the link dump is one of the favourite 'tools' of the alt-right. I reckon they've rarely watched it themselves beyond the title.

Odhinn

MysticMonk wrote: »

Sam Harris.

An early use was in French in 1910, in a work decrying the attitude of the French government to its muslim subjects. In english it dates to the 1920's.

panbrian wrote:

https://youtu.be/fPBSZbt9uwU

Utter rubbish with no basis in fact whatsoever.

From the oxford english dictionary

Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force.

Origin
1920s: from Islam + -o- + -phobia.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/islamophobia


Definition of Islamophobia

: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against Islam or people who practice Islam
— Islamophobe play \is-ˈlä-mə-ˌfōb, iz-, -ˈla-\ noun
— Islamophobic play \is-ˌlä-mə-ˈfō-bik, iz-, -ˈla-\ adjective

First Known Use: 1923
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Islamophobia


Your Doctor Tony Costa is not a full time professor at the University of Toronto either, but is a full "professor of religions" with a baptist seminary.

The Legend Of Kira

Odhinn wrote: »

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

To a certain degree we have free speech, when it comes to saying something critical about Islam publicly such free speech is limited, some examples I can point to for reference ( 1 ) last year in February an anti Islam protest was called by Pegida in Dublin , look what happened that day people suspected of being Pegida supporters were chased in the street by a big gang +  some people who were due to speak at the demo that day were attacked by a mob on the Luas with Iron bars & other weapons, Im not highlighting this as to debate the pros/cons of Pegida just highlighting it as an example of what happened to some people who wanted to say something critical about Islam publicly........................

Trying to launch that kind of group, linked to the English Defence League, outside the GPO, in 2016, may have been a bit of a miscalculation.

I can only assume you re making reference to the fact Tommy Robinson was invited over to Cork to take part in a press conference,, like Tommy or dislike Tommy at the time he took part in the press conference in Cork he had long left the Edl & had no involvement with the Edl,, so I don,t get what the relevance of bringing up the Edl is given he,s long left the group .

The Legend Of Kira

Another poster brought up the silencing word " Islamophobia " here is what Salman Rushdie is quoted as saying regarding that false term in recent years 

"  He argued that the taboo surrounding “supposed ‘Islamophobia’” must be brought to an end.
“Why can’t we debate Islam?” he said. “It is possible to respect individuals, to protect them from intolerance, while being sceptical about their ideas, even criticising them ferociously.” "

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/23/salman-rushdie-on-islam-we-have-learned-the-wrong-lessons

But if its somehow " phobic " or " racist " to be against religious ideas/beliefs then surely by such logic all the people who were protesting outside the Scientology centre in Dublin in October must be " racist " too ?


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/keep-tom-cruise-out-of-firhouse-protests-against-new-scientology-centre-in-dublin-36227090.html

The Legend Of Kira

Double post error.

pitifulgod

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

I can only assume you re making reference to the fact Tommy Robinson was invited over to Cork to take part in a press conference,, like Tommy or dislike Tommy at the time he took part in the press conference in Cork he had long left the Edl & had no involvement with the Edl,, so I don,t get what the relevance of bringing up the Edl is given he,s long left the group .

I couldn't care less if Tommy is in the EDL or not, the man consistently harasses and abuses. He equated individuals with terrorism in Manchester because of a common Mosque which had thrown the member out for extremism. Tommy is extremism. Ian Paisley didn't commit the terrorism but he provoked individuals to engage in it. That's bloody Tommy. He's a pretty awful role model as he himself is an extremist.

James Brown

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

Another poster brought up the silencing word " Islamophobia " here is what Salman Rushdie is quoted as saying regarding that false term in recent years 

"  He argued that the taboo surrounding “supposed ‘Islamophobia’” must be brought to an end.
“Why can’t we debate Islam?” he said. “It is possible to respect individuals, to protect them from intolerance, while being sceptical about their ideas, even criticising them ferociously.” "

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/23/salman-rushdie-on-islam-we-have-learned-the-wrong-lessons

But if its somehow " phobic " or " racist " to be against religious ideas/beliefs then surely by such logic all the people who were protesting outside the Scientology centre in Dublin in October must be " racist " too ?


https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/keep-tom-cruise-out-of-firhouse-protests-against-new-scientology-centre-in-dublin-36227090.html

pho·bic
ˈfōbik/Submit
adjective
1. having or involving an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.

I think it's a term reserved for the tar everyone with the same incorrect brush folks.
You can indeed have factual arguments about Islam and not be phobic. You become phobic when your dislike/disdain for all things Islamic has no rational basis. There is no rational basis for disliking or having an aversion to an entire people, most of whom you haven't met, based on attributes others put on them all in equal measure. For example; 'I don't like Islam because it's believed Muhammad was a profit and I don't like his teachings and I have examples.' Not phobic. 'I don't like Islam because all Islamists are [insert broad accusation without facts]'. phobic.

Like a lot of ALT-Right complaints, like 'bring back Christmas' because the inclusive use of 'happy holidays' upsets them greatly and makes them insecure, it's more about fear of losing control than fairness or equality.

'When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression' - Chris Rock.

MysticMonk

Odhinn wrote: »

Would you care to re-visit the last video you posted and acknowledge that its claims re Islamophobia are completely incorrect?

What's with all the question marks on your post?

You never actually state anything ,apart from nebulous nonsense about "hate" and "bigotry" but you spend the rest of your time splitting hairs and trying to interrogate everybody who you don't agree with.

You're coming across like a barrack-room lawyer for the cult of Islam...i've no idea what you're getting out of this apart from wasting everybody's time.

Odhinn

MysticMonk wrote: »

What's with all the question marks on your post?

You never actually state anything ,apart from nebulous nonsense about "hate" and "bigotry" but you spend the rest of your time splitting hairs and trying to interrogate everybody who you don't agree with.

You're coming across like a barrack-room lawyer for the cult of Islam...i've no idea what you're getting out of this apart from wasting everybody's time.

Somebody linked to a video whose main thrust is that islamophobia is some modern invention. I've shown that this is a nonsense, and has no basis in fact. That is not "splitting hairs". One might ask why you have such a negative reaction to propaganda being exposed as such.

johnnyskeleton

Mod note:

No link/video dumps please!

Professor Moriarty

Odhinn wrote: »

Somebody linked to a video whose main thrust is that islamophobia is some modern invention. I've shown that this is a nonsense, and has no basis in fact. That is not "splitting hairs". One might ask why you have such a negative reaction to propaganda being exposed as such.

They obviously never heard of the Crusades.

Madagascan

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Odhinn wrote: »

Somebody linked to a video whose main thrust is that islamophobia is some modern invention. I've shown that this is a nonsense, and has no basis in fact. That is not "splitting hairs". One might ask why you have such a negative reaction to propaganda being exposed as such.

They obviously never heard of the Crusades.

Which, as you know was a response to Muslim agression.

quokula

20Cent wrote: »

The video above reminds me of another characteristic of the alt right. They just seem so gullible and willing to believe absolutely anything. Blatantly obvious fake stories are treated as gospel by them.

They're only gullible about stories that affirm their warped world view.

They are bizarrely sceptical when presented with facts about climate change for example.

quokula

20Cent wrote: »

The video above reminds me of another characteristic of the alt right. They just seem so gullible and willing to believe absolutely anything. Blatantly obvious fake stories are treated as gospel by them.

They're only gullible about stories that affirm their warped world view.

They are bizarrely sceptical when presented with facts about climate change for example.

The Legend Of Kira

quokula wrote: »

20Cent wrote: »

The video above reminds me of another characteristic of the alt right. They just seem so gullible and willing to believe absolutely anything. Blatantly obvious fake stories are treated as gospel by them.

They're only gullible about stories that affirm their warped world view.

They are bizarrely sceptical when presented with facts about climate change for example.

I usually blank out faces referring to tweets, but this post I won,t as the person is known public figure with a verified account on Twitter, this is what Michael Nugent from ( Atheist Ireland ) said about the false term " Islamophobia " in the past, would anyone consider any of what Im quoting from Michael to be a " warped worldview " ?

pitifulgod

My view on Nugent's tweet is that he's entirely incorrect and it's more a factor that he doesn't like criticism. I'm lost on why random people on twitter are sources of proof for you.