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What are tenants responsibilities regarding keeping house heated

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    #32
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,505 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    If they don't want heat on they don't have to.

    If they are causing damp by not heating the house then they are in breach of their obligations and can be issued notice to leave.


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    #33
    Edups
    Closed Accounts Posts: 678 ✭✭✭Edups


    runawaybishop wrote: »
    If they are causing damp by not heating the house then they are in breach of their obligations and can be issued notice to leave.

    You cannot make a person turn on heat if they are not cold. It's in every contract that a tenant is entitled to comfort and enjoyment of their home, if you're not cold and you turn on the heating, that causes discomfort.


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    #34
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Edups wrote: »
    You cannot make a person turn on heat if they are not cold. It's in every contract that a tenant is entitled to comfort and enjoyment of their home, if you're not cold and you turn on the heating, that causes discomfort.

    Ah now come on, everyone gets cold at least twice a year!! If someone is genuinely not cold ever then they could turn on heating for an hour and open windows.


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    #35
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,505 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Edups wrote: »
    You cannot make a person turn on heat if they are not cold. It's in every contract that a tenant is entitled to comfort and enjoyment of their home, if you're not cold and you turn on the heating, that causes discomfort.

    And if you breach your obligations you get kicked out of the house.


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    #36
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Couple of things,

    Oil tanks must be fully supported along their base, preferably with concrete heads.
    The tank should be tilting back away from the fuel line in order for debris and sludge to accumulate at the furthest point from the fuel line.
    Propping up the end of the tank compromises the support and will introduce dirt into the fuel system, although good filters should stop yhe dirt but doesn't always and the pump on the burner can get destroyed.
    As a heating service tech it is interesting to see the varience in the temperatures that people prefer, from very hot to cold enough. Everyone is different and nobody can force them to have the heating on more than they prefer.
    Damp is usually caused by other problems, poor ventilation, moisture from outside etc., having the heat on might keep it under control, but its not fixing the problem itself.
    Personally, I would have words with them for tampering with the tank and tell them that any repair cost as a result of that action may be payable by them.
    Check out the damp and try to establish the cause. I have seen plenty of damp and mould patches as a result of water leaks or poor ventilation in my time and the properties would be warm enough all year round.


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    #37
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Couple of things,

    Oil tanks must be fully supported along their base, preferably with concrete heads.
    The tank should be tilting back away from the fuel line in order for debris and sludge to accumulate at the furthest point from the fuel line.
    Propping up the end of the tank compromises the support and will introduce dirt into the fuel system, although good filters should stop yhe dirt but doesn't always and the pump on the burner can get destroyed.
    As a heating service tech it is interesting to see the varience in the temperatures that people prefer, from very hot to cold enough. Everyone is different and nobody can force them to have the heating on more than they prefer.
    Damp is usually caused by other problems, poor ventilation, moisture from outside etc., having the heat on might keep it under control, but its not fixing the problem itself.
    Personally, I would have words with them for tampering with the tank and tell them that any repair cost as a result of that action may be payable by them.
    Check out the damp and try to establish the cause. I have seen plenty of damp and mould patches as a result of water leaks or poor ventilation in my time and the properties would be warm enough all year round.

    Good information KFlyer, I had no prior experience of gas heating until I moved into my current house and it's caused me nothing but problems that I never had with gas heating. It doesn't look to me like my tank is tilted away from the fuel line although it could be slightly.


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    #38
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    pilly wrote: »
    Good information KFlyer, I had no prior experience of gas heating until I moved into my current house and it's caused me nothing but problems that I never had with gas heating. It doesn't look to me like my tank is tilted away from the fuel line although it could be slightly.

    Do you mean Oil :)

    It only needs to be slight, aboit 1 inch in the difference would be enough.


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    #39
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Do you mean Oil :)

    It only needs to be slight, aboit 1 inch in the difference would be enough.

    Yeah sorry I meant oil. Mine is up on a concrete thing alright and it could be tilted 1 inch alright, my eye wouldn't be that good!


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    #40
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    runawaybishop wrote:
    If they are causing damp by not heating the house then they are in breach of their obligations and can be issued notice to leave.


    Not quite as simple as you think. Damp is caused by inadequate insulation this is not the Tennants problem. This argument doesn't add up. If heat was causing damage would the Tennant have to run air-conditioning.


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    #41
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Not quite as simple as you think. Damp is caused by inadequate insulation this is not the Tennants problem. This argument doesn't add up. If heat was causing damage would the Tennant have to run air-conditioning.

    I don't believe lack of heat doesn't cause problems in a house. Have you ever been in a house that hasn't had heating on for a year? You can feel the damp in the air.


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    #42
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,505 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Not quite as simple as you think. Damp is caused by inadequate insulation this is not the Tennants problem. This argument doesn't add up. If heat was causing damage would the Tennant have to run air-conditioning.

    Read what i wrote, i said "If they are causing damp by not heating the house". Not heating a house in cold and damp weather can absolutely cause issues.


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    #43
    MayBee
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭MayBee


    SteM wrote: »
    It's been said already, it costs a large lump sum to fill a tank with oil. Perhaps they're saving for it, they obviously didn't know about it when they moved in. The OP doesn't know because she'd rather talk to strangers on the internet about it than discuss it with the tenant.

    Of course they knew what heating was in the house before they moved in, if they were unable/unwilling to pay for oil then they should have found somewhere else to live, or used other heaters if they so wished, also there is an open fire,
    It will be discussed with the tenant obviously, but I was hoping for some advise before the subject was broached


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    #44
    MayBee
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭MayBee


    Edups wrote: »
    You cannot make a person turn on heat if they are not cold. It's in every contract that a tenant is entitled to comfort and enjoyment of their home, if you're not cold and you turn on the heating, that causes discomfort.

    Well they were obviously cold at some stage as they used up the oil that was in the tank and the other firewood that was provided


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    #45
    MayBee
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭MayBee


    seagull wrote: »
    It's a risk for the tenant to pay to fill the oil tank if they're unsure how long they'll be in the property. You can imagine people wouldn't be overly happy to pay out €600 to fill the tank, and then wind up moving out with the tank still half full.

    I completely understand this, but you don't have to fill the tank, you can get a half tank, or 200/250e or whatever you may think you'll use if you're planning on moving out


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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I lived in a house that was cold and damp and it wasn't from us not heating it. I could have poured my entire salary into trying to heat the place, and it would have remained cold and damp. On windy evenings there was a noticeable breeze in the sitting room, because the windows werent sealed.

    As other posters have said, its only gotten cold in the last couple of weeks. Ive had my electric fire on once or twice this winter, and I've not switched the radiators on anywhere except in the hall because its not been cold enough. If I was living somewhere with poor ventilation and poor insulation id be in the same boat as the OP's tenants in that he'd be complaining Im not heating the place, when in reality ive not needed to, and we dont have any problems with dampness.

    OP, hand on heart, is the property properly insulated with sufficient ventilaltion?


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    #47
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    pilly wrote: »
    I don't believe lack of heat doesn't cause problems in a house. Have you ever been in a house that hasn't had heating on for a year? You can feel the damp in the air.

    It doesn't really matter what you think as this doesn't change the facts. I don't mean to sound cheeky saying this.
    Read what i wrote, i said "If they are causing damp by not heating the house". Not heating a house in cold and damp weather can absolutely cause issues.

    Not heating the house wont cause the house any damage. However is the house is badly maintained & already has issues then the cold might highlight the existing issues.

    There are 1000s of properly maintained & insulated holiday homes all over Ireland that has not heating at all during the winter as they aren't lived in. This does them no harm.
    You can not force someone to heat a home that they are renting. Even if op offered to pay for the heat the tenant can refuse.


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    #48
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter what you think as this doesn't change the facts. I don't mean to sound cheeky saying this.



    Not heating the house wont cause the house any damage. However is the house is badly maintained & already has issues then the cold might highlight the existing issues.

    There are 1000s of properly maintained & insulated holiday homes all over Ireland that has not heating at all during the winter as they aren't lived in. This does them no harm.
    You can not force someone to heat a home that they are renting. Even if op offered to pay for the heat the tenant can refuse.


    Eh, a non lived in house does not have someone in there washing, cooking, drying clothes etc and putting moisture in the air.

    We're not talking about heating places people don't live in. They'll be dry.

    If a house is lived in, people produce moisture.


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    #49
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I lived in a house that was cold and damp and it wasn't from us not heating it. I could have poured my entire salary into trying to heat the place, and it would have remained cold and damp. On windy evenings there was a noticeable breeze in the sitting room, because the windows werent sealed.

    As other posters have said, its only gotten cold in the last couple of weeks. Ive had my electric fire on once or twice this winter, and I've not switched the radiators on anywhere except in the hall because its not been cold enough. If I was living somewhere with poor ventilation and poor insulation id be in the same boat as the OP's tenants in that he'd be complaining Im not heating the place, when in reality ive not needed to, and we dont have any problems with dampness.

    OP, hand on heart, is the property properly insulated with sufficient ventilaltion?

    Some older houses are badly insulated and ventilated but this can't be solved very easily, costs a lot of money to fix it.


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    #50
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    intheclouds wrote: »
    Eh, a non lived in house does not have someone in there washing, cooking, drying clothes etc and putting moisture in the air.

    We're not talking about heating places people don't live in. They'll be dry.

    If a house is lived in, people produce moisture.

    They still have no legal responsibility to heat the house. Even with all the above going on you shouldn't need to have heating on. A house should be able to deal with all these things with proper ventilation. You will ONLY get issues if there's not enough insulation, ventilation etc. these are the LLs problem. As someone already pointed out it's actually built into a lease about tenants comfort. If the property isn't up to standard there's nothing stopping LL form filling up with oil & asking nicely if tenant would turn the heat on for an hour everyday.


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    #51
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    It doesn't really matter what you think as this doesn't change the facts. I don't mean to sound cheeky saying this.


    Not heating the house wont cause the house any damage. However is the house is badly maintained & already has issues then the cold might highlight the existing issues.

    There are 1000s of properly maintained & insulated holiday homes all over Ireland that has not heating at all during the winter as they aren't lived in. This does them no harm.
    You can not force someone to heat a home that they are renting. Even if op offered to pay for the heat the tenant can refuse.

    It does sound cheeky, what makes your opinion fact?


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    #52
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    pilly wrote: »
    It does sound cheeky, what makes your opinion fact?

    Erm... I'm in the building trade & know what I'm talking about:)


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    #53
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    They still have no legal responsibility to heat the house. Even with all the above going on you shouldn't need to have heating on. A house should be able to deal with all these things with proper ventilation. You will ONLY get issues if there's not enough insulation, ventilation etc. these are the LLs problem. As someone already pointed out it's actually built into a lease about tenants comfort. If the property isn't up to standard there's nothing stopping LL form filling up with oil & asking nicely if tenant would turn the heat on for an hour everyday.

    Are you for real?

    Seriously? What kind of an idiot would live in a property, refuse to heat it resulting in damage to the property and then make the above argument to the landlord?

    I don't think you understand how the real world works. The landlord can evict the tenant for this nonsense.


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    #54
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Erm... I'm in the building trade & know what I'm talking about:)

    You don't even understand the difference between an unoccupied property and an occupied one with regards to moisture build up.

    Please let me know your business name so I steer well clear.


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    #55
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    Erm... I'm in the building trade & know what I'm talking about:)

    So you know for a fact that not putting the heat on in any house in the country would not cause problems? No you don't. You can keep saying all you like "if" the house is this and "if" the house is that. But in reality not every house in the country is insulated or ventilated properly, mainly due to cowboy builders.


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    #56
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    intheclouds wrote: »
    Are you for real?

    Seriously? What kind of an idiot would live in a property, refuse to heat it resulting in damage to the property and then make the above argument to the landlord?

    I don't think you understand how the real world works. The landlord can evict the tenant for this nonsense.

    And end up in the PRTB.
    You are missing the point. Home is SUPPOSED to be up to standard. Tenant is entitled to their own comfort levels (Its in the lease) tenant pays rent.
    I don't have to have heat on in my home to stop damp & mould because it is up to building standards.


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    #57
    MayBee
    Registered Users Posts: 53 ✭✭MayBee


    For everyone asking about what condition the house is in, it's a very well maintained house, Windows and doors were replaced a couple of years ago and also the insulation upgraded, there has been significant investment in the house, so obviously we don't want to see the house deteriorate.


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    #58
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    pilly wrote: »
    mainly due to cowboy builders.

    or older building standards
    or being made out of lumps of rock


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    #59
    intheclouds
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,175 ✭✭✭intheclouds


    Sleeper12 wrote: »
    And end up in the PRTB.
    You are missing the point. Home is SUPPOSED to be up to standard. Tenant is entitled to their own comfort levels (Its in the lease) tenant pays rent.
    I don't have to have heat on in my home to stop damp & mould because it is up to building standards.

    I think you're missing the point. You don't seem to have a clue what you're talking about.

    Building regs change over the years btw. There is no requirement for any property to be retrospectively brought up to current regs.

    I don't believe for a minute you don't use heating in your home. Complete rubbish.

    You seem to think properties with adequate ventilation don't need to be heated. This may be true in a dry climate. But eh, this is Ireland.


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    #60
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    pilly wrote: »
    So you know for a fact that not putting the heat on in any house in the country would not cause problems? No you don't. You can keep saying all you like "if" the house is this and "if" the house is that. But in reality not every house in the country is insulated or ventilated properly, mainly due to cowboy builders.

    I get that but if the LL doesn't fix these problems then thats their problem. You can't say to a tenant oh I know I won't spend the money getting proper insulation or ventilation so you have to spend your money to try keep damp away.

    Like it or not it's in the lease tenant is entitled to their own comfort levels.

    I'm not LL bashing here. I have tenants myself.


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    #61
    Sleeper12
    Registered Users Posts: 17,075 ✭✭✭✭Sleeper12


    MayBee wrote: »
    For everyone asking about what condition the house is in, it's a very well maintained house, Windows and doors were replaced a couple of years ago and also the insulation upgraded, there has been significant investment in the house, so obviously we don't want to see the house deteriorate.

    As you insulate the house & get better windows you are stopping drafts and such. This is all wonderfull but you then need to increase ventilation

    Your question is: What are tenants responsibilities regarding keeping house heated
    Answer is none.     They are entitled to their own comfort levels. The PRTB should be able to explain this to you.
    It's only getting cold this weekend. Why would they have heating on if they are not cold.


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