NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

bobbysands81

Details here:

https://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/campaignAdvert/44855.htm?lang=en

Good luck everyone.

dee75

Hi

I'm currently in private sector and a qualified professional for the last 9 years. I'm strongly considering applying for this competition, although I don't know my chances as I see from previous boards that the recruitment process is extremely tough for an Assistant Principal.

I see you can choose two regions on the form. I live in the South East and could happily pick 6 counties that are about 45-60 minutes commute from where I live. However, that option isn't available.

I don't want to select Dublin, (even though I assume most of the jobs will be there) as I understand it can be very difficult to get a transfer out of Dublin.

In choosing two counties in the South East, can anyone give any guidance as to which counties have the largest number of decentralised departments or civil service staff in general? It would be Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Carlow, Kildare and Laois. I don't want to choose a county that has very little chance of having a vacancy during the life of the panel.

Thank you!

dee75

hardybuck

dee75 wrote: »

Hi

I'm currently in private sector and a qualified professional for the last 9 years. I'm strongly considering applying for this competition, although I don't know my chances as I see from previous boards that the recruitment process is extremely tough for an Assistant Principal.

I see you can choose two regions on the form. I live in the South East and could happily pick 6 counties that are about 45-60 minutes commute from where I live. However, that option isn't available.

I don't want to select Dublin, (even though I assume most of the jobs will be there) as I understand it can be very difficult to get a transfer out of Dublin.

In choosing two counties in the South East, can anyone give any guidance as to which counties have the largest number of decentralised departments or civil service staff in general? It would be Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Carlow, Kildare and Laois. I don't want to choose a county that has very little chance of having a vacancy during the life of the panel.

Thank you!

dee75

Phone Public Jobs.

bobbysands81

dee75 wrote: »

Hi

I'm currently in private sector and a qualified professional for the last 9 years. I'm strongly considering applying for this competition, although I don't know my chances as I see from previous boards that the recruitment process is extremely tough for an Assistant Principal.

I see you can choose two regions on the form. I live in the South East and could happily pick 6 counties that are about 45-60 minutes commute from where I live. However, that option isn't available.

I don't want to select Dublin, (even though I assume most of the jobs will be there) as I understand it can be very difficult to get a transfer out of Dublin.

In choosing two counties in the South East, can anyone give any guidance as to which counties have the largest number of decentralised departments or civil service staff in general? It would be Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Carlow, Kildare and Laois. I don't want to choose a county that has very little chance of having a vacancy during the life of the panel.

Thank you!

dee75

Kildare has the third highest amount of Civil Servants in the State after Dublin and Cork. Not sure what county is next in those you've listed but Laois and Carlow could be discounted with Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny probably being quite similar in amount of Civil Servants.

hardybuck

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Kildare has the third highest amount of Civil Servants in the State after Dublin and Cork. Not sure what county is next in those you've listed but Laois and Carlow could be discounted with Waterford, Wexford and Kilkenny probably being quite similar in amount of Civil Servants.

I think that information is incorrect. Kildare would in a group including Mayo, Westmeath, Galway, Kerry et al.

That information is misleading though, as this is about AP competitions. Tipperary would have more Civil Servants than Kildare, but Tipp is a big county, and then you've got clerical staff working in Garda stations, meat plants etc. Every county has these, plus Revenue and Social Welfare.

The real question there is where are decentralised offices, where you'll find more policy work and APs working. This is why you should ring PAS - you'll get a better quality of response.

I'm aware of Department of Housing who've got lots of people in Wexford town. The Property Registry Authority is in Waterford City. Dept. of Defence is in Newbridge, and then I think Agriculture have a decent whack of staff in Backweston, which is nearly in Dublin.

western4

I applied for this last year (Open) and did very well on the first two phases but not the interview and while I asked for feedback, it was quite sparse on the detail so I've no idea how I'd go about addressing things differently (if I were to get that far again). At the time I felt that the minute I walked into the interview that I wasn't what they were looking for as I'm from the voluntary sector. The interviewers were very pleasant but the questions were fairly vague and non-specific. I suppose I'm wondering is there any point in trying again?! All advice greatly appreciated!

bobbysands81

hardybuck wrote: »

I think that information is incorrect. Kildare would in a group including Mayo, Westmeath, Galway, Kerry et al.

That information is misleading though, as this is about AP competitions. Tipperary would have more Civil Servants than Kildare, but Tipp is a big county, and then you've got clerical staff working in Garda stations, meat plants etc. Every county has these, plus Revenue and Social Welfare.

The real question there is where are decentralised offices, where you'll find more policy work and APs working. This is why you should ring PAS - you'll get a better quality of response.

I'm aware of Department of Housing who've got lots of people in Wexford town. The Property Registry Authority is in Waterford City. Dept. of Defence is in Newbridge, and then I think Agriculture have a decent whack of staff in Backweston, which is nearly in Dublin.

You're right actually. The info I gave was incorrect. Limerick is third. Kildare is 4th with same numbers as Westmeath but more than Tipp, Galway and Kerry and FAR more than Mayo.

I agree with you with regard to the stats being misleading as they don't indicate how many APs might be in each geographic area.

Of all the counties the poster listed Kildare would, by far, have the most AP possibilities imo followed by Wexford and Waterford.

hardybuck

bobbysands81 wrote: »

You're right actually. The info I gave was incorrect. Limerick is third. Kildare is 4th with same numbers as Westmeath but more than Tipp, Galway and Kerry and FAR more than Mayo.

Sorry no, that's incorrect again.

ZolaGood

Am I right that this is comp is open only not both? How do you think this would impact on serving civil servants? Or does it make a difference??

bobbysands81

hardybuck wrote: »

Sorry no, that's incorrect again.

I stand by the post and to best of my knowledge it's accurate. If it's not then please be more specific.

ZolaGood wrote: »

Am I right that this is comp is open only not both? How do you think this would impact on serving civil servants? Or does it make a difference??

It's open to anyone to apply.

A certain number of posts are being held solely for serving Civil Servants (possibly 1 in every 3 but not sure).

The overwhelming majority of APs from the current panel are serving Civil Servants, I've heard anecdotally that DPER were disappointed with this as they expected a far higher amount of non-Civil Servants to be successful.

It's impacts in serving CS as their career path is in theory "blocked" but I don't hear Civil Servants complaining about it.

Dodge

For the work involved, the salary isn't good enough to attract many from outside the CS. Certainly not if they're looking for 'management' as they say in this competition

bobbysands81

Dodge wrote: »

For the work involved, the salary isn't good enough to attract many from outside the CS. Certainly not if they're looking for 'management' as they say in this competition

I've also heard anecdotally that the CS are finding it very difficult to hold onto AOs given wages are much higher for them elsewhere.

doc11

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I've also heard anecdotally that the CS are finding it very difficult to hold onto AOs given wages are much higher for them elsewhere.

Where? Many of AO's are coming from the private sector in the first place rare to see any coming straight out of college.

gazzer

When I look at the crazy hours that a lot of the AP's in my department put in I honestly wonder why the hell anybody would apply for these positions? In my department it is not unheard of for AP's to have to travel to Dublin 2 or 3 times a week and they are leaving the house at 6am and not getting back until 9pm. When they are based in their normal office they can be putting in 12 hour days also. The salary on offer is definitely not worth the hours you have to put in.

Riskymove

doc11 wrote: »

Where? Many of AO's are coming from the private sector in the first place rare to see any coming straight out of college.

Graduate recruitment is increasing again in private sector

also more opps in public service

People took the first opportunities they could to get back into jobs, for many this was the CO competition

as recruitment increases there are people who came in recently as COs now getting EO or even HEO from open competition

hardybuck

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I stand by the post and to best of my knowledge it's accurate. If it's not then please be more specific.

Tipp has about 17% more than Kildare for example.

hardybuck

bobbysands81 wrote: »

I've also heard anecdotally that the CS are finding it very difficult to hold onto AOs given wages are much higher for them elsewhere.

I think more AOs are promoted rather than lost to the CS.

The salary for AOs is actually excellent in relation to the wages elsewhere. The competitions also tend to have huge numbers of applications.

Ayuntamiento

hardybuck wrote: »

I think more AOs are promoted rather than lost to the CS.

The salary for AOs is actually excellent in relation to the wages elsewhere. The competitions also tend to have huge numbers of applications.

30k is good money for somebody who's straight out of college, aged 22yrs old. It's not great money for somebody in their 30s who wants to buy a house, etc. It's a pity that PAS can't use discretion in placing people at different levels of the AO increment scale based on their qualifications/previous experience.

Dodge

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

30k is good money for somebody who's straight out of college, aged 22yrs old. It's not great money for somebody in their 30s who wants to buy a house, etc. It's a pity that PAS can't use discretion in placing people at different levels of the AO increment scale based on their qualifications/previous experience.

It's an entry level job though. It's even aimed at graduates

Unlike APs of course.

bobbysands81

Dodge wrote: »

It's an entry level job though. It's even aimed at graduates

Unlike APs of course.

There's also now a more established career path for them in that each AO receives mentoring with an aim to get them quickly to AP.

dee75

Thanks for the feedback regarding my question re counties in the south East that have higher numbers of civil servants. Really appreciated. I will ring PAS but it sounds like Kildare and Waterford should be on my list!

Now just have to tackle the application form.

psnKOB79LFC

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There's also now a more established career path for them in that each AO receives mentoring with an aim to get them quickly to AP.

That's fine for AO in dublin where there are far more AP roles to go for, less so in the regions

psnKOB79LFC

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

30k is good money for somebody who's straight out of college, aged 22yrs old. It's not great money for somebody in their 30s who wants to buy a house, etc. It's a pity that PAS can't use discretion in placing people at different levels of the AO increment scale based on their qualifications/previous experience.

Would be shocked to seE someone get AO at age of 22. Where I work it is usually those in early 30s with degree and at least 1 professional qualification

Rock of Gibraltar

psnKOB79LFC wrote: »

Would be shocked to seE someone get AO at age of 22. Where I work it is usually those in early 30s with degree and at least 1 professional qualification

I think during the crisis a lot of folks with a few years of experience applied for and became AOs, simply because of the state of the job market and essentially out-competed those more recently out of college.

It has swung back to recent graduates though in the latest competition, I'd say the average age of the latest batch is 26/27.

There's a large turnover of AOs, which I think is to be expected given the relatively low salary and that AOs typically are very well educated and are upwardly mobile.

hardybuck

Rock of Gibraltar wrote: »

I think during the crisis a lot of folks with a few years of experience applied for and became AOs, simply because of the state of the job market and essentially out-competed those more recently out of college.

It has swung back to recent graduates though in the latest competition, I'd say the average age of the latest batch is 26/27.

There's a large turnover of AOs, which I think is to be expected given the relatively low salary and that AOs typically are very well educated and are upwardly mobile.

What's a large turnover?

I'd also wager that their average age is definitely over 30.

Rock of Gibraltar

hardybuck wrote: »

What's a large turnover?

I'd also wager that their average age is definitely over 30.

I don't have actual data on that but in a department I'm familiar with the average length of service for AOs is probably around 2.5 years. Most seem to be promoted within the civil service or move to higher paid positions across the public service, here or internationally, a handful into the private sector.

salary for ao is only poor if you forget to mention that it doubles in a pretty short period of time.

doc11

Deleted User wrote: »

salary for ao is only poor if you forget to mention that it doubles in a pretty short period of time.

Assuming you get an AP role. Some AOs could struggle against a well qualified CO in an internal competition. Open competitions, all grades eligible for promotion to AP,recent intake fresh CO and EO who are all well qualified. It's not the closed shop and minimal competition it once was.

Maur54

For those on this thread who have gone through the recent HEO competition, l am just wondering if you are using similar or the same examples in this form as used in the HEO competition?

Thanks in advance for any views/obs!

Addle

doc11 wrote: »

Assuming you get an AP role. Some AOs could struggle against a well qualified CO in an internal competition. Open competitions, all grades eligible for promotion to AP,recent intake fresh CO and EO who are all well qualified. It's not the closed shop and minimal competition it once was.

As an AO, are you not guaranteed AP?

psnKOB79LFC

Addle wrote: »

As an AO, are you not guaranteed AP?

Funniest comment I have seen in a long time. No way guaranteed

hardybuck

Addle wrote: »

As an AO, are you not guaranteed AP?

I think this thread is at risk of turning into an AO thread!

But no, nobody is guaranteed anything. Every post is filled via a competitive process. Some of those processes are internal to the Department, some are restricted to Civil Servants, and others are open to everybody.

Do a lot of AOs become APs - absolutely.

Am I right in saying you're a Civil Servant and you thought this was the case!?

Addle

psnKOB79LFC wrote: »

Funniest comment I have seen in a long time. No way guaranteed

I was always of the opinion that AOs were guaranteed AP after a certain amount of time!
There are none in my current dept but were in my last and there was definitely that perception.

Dodge

To be fair, AOs do get training 'the AO graduate programme' and mentoring etc to get them on the path to becoming an AP. They certainly are given every chance to make the step up.

But the days of guaranteed promotions are lone gone (thankfully).

cee_jay

I know many HEOs and EOs who are getting "Management" and "Leadership" training - which also helps on the path to becoming an AP. Most staff are given every chance to make the step up (in the Departments I have worked in).
The AO Graduate Programme is only in place for the past 2 years intakes of AOs - any AO who joined before that has missed out on the training.
As for AOs guaranteed to make AP, I think that is no longer the case. I know AOs who didn't pass the interview in the last AP competition. I also know of HEOs who didn't pass. It really is down to your own personal experience and how you package that - no matter what grade you currently are.

tigger123

cee_jay wrote: »

I know many HEOs and EOs who are getting "Management" and "Leadership" training - which also helps on the path to becoming an AP. Most staff are given every chance to make the step up (in the Departments I have worked in).
The AO Graduate Programme is only in place for the past 2 years intakes of AOs - any AO who joined before that has missed out on the training.
As for AOs guaranteed to make AP, I think that is no longer the case. I know AOs who didn't pass the interview in the last AP competition. I also know of HEOs who didn't pass. It really is down to your own personal experience and how you package that - no matter what grade you currently are.

I think the best bet (whether you're an CO/EO/AO/HEO/whatever) is to make sure you're getting the work/training/experience that allows you build your competencies and application form. That's up to you, and most sections will facilitate it if you talk to management in whatever section you're in, but you have to put your hand up first.

Get yourself the opportunity to build your cv to the point that you can make a good argument as to how/why you fit the grade of AP in your interview.

Riskymove

Addle wrote: »

I was always of the opinion that AOs were guaranteed AP after a certain amount of time!
There are none in my current dept but were in my last and there was definitely that perception.

This actually was the case some years ago, promoted after seven years I think

the whole point of the AO was to get graduates and fast track them to AP

These days they go through the competitive process and would probably have a number of advantages over HEOs in terms of their more specialised roles and the training programme....but no guarantee

dee75

On the AP application form - man, it's a horror.

Am I the only one who is worried that answers are getting a bit repetitive?

I've spent some time completing Q's 1 - 4 of the "Key Achievements" section and now Questions 1 and 2 of the next part look like they want more of the same? Maybe I've been too general in 1-4 of the Key Achievements when I need to give some very specific examples.

Should 1 & 2 to "outline significant experience...." be the more general answers I give?

What do you all think? Stick with very specific examples in 1 - 4 of Key Achievements, and then a general summary of management experience in 1 - 2 of the next section?

Dodge

dee75 wrote: »

On the AP application form - man, it's a horror.

Am I the only one who is worried that answers are getting a bit repetitive?

I've spent some time completing Q's 1 - 4 of the "Key Achievements" section and now Questions 1 and 2 of the next part look like they want more of the same? Maybe I've been too general in 1-4 of the Key Achievements when I need to give some very specific examples.

Should 1 & 2 to "outline significant experience...." be the more general answers I give?

What do you all think? Stick with very specific examples in 1 - 4 of Key Achievements, and then a general summary of management experience in 1 - 2 of the next section?

Don't over think it. Some work examples are great for multiple competencies

When you get to interview stage, you'll probably only use one example for each competency so don't sweat it too much

doc11

doc11 wrote: »

Assuming you get an AP role. Some AOs could struggle against a well qualified CO in an internal competition. Open competitions, all grades eligible for promotion to AP,recent intake fresh CO and EO who are all well qualified. It's not the closed shop and minimal competition it once was.

not at all making that assumption. AO salary rises to near 60k incrementally.

AndrewJRenko

cee_jay wrote: »

As for AOs guaranteed to make AP, I think that is no longer the case. I know AOs who didn't pass the interview in the last AP competition. I also know of HEOs who didn't pass. It really is down to your own personal experience and how you package that - no matter what grade you currently are.

Probably a fair few APs who wouldn't pass if they had to go through it!

JD1763

Anyone having issues with the online application form?

I've submitted but when I check it under my account none of the dropdown options - country, qualifications, first secretary option have saved my choices. The text fields and checkboxes are fine and have saved my entries.

dee75

I submitted mine this evening. I've just checked it now in "My applications". I can view both the online application and the detailed PDF application form. When I checked both, they appear to be exactly what I submitted. All of my dropdown choices on the online form have saved.

I'd give PAS a call in the morning to check?

JD1763

Thanks - might try another browser instead of safari then.

ThunbergsAreGo

JD1763 wrote: »

Anyone having issues with the online application form?

I've submitted but when I check it under my account none of the dropdown options - country, qualifications, first secretary option have saved my choices. The text fields and checkboxes are fine and have saved my entries.

Having had it crash on me after filling in about twenty percent (the fiddly stuff) and the long winded nature of the answers to questions, is really turning me off applying

Dodge

In many ways CS competitions are a war of attrition. Negotiating the form, online tests, supervised tests, presentations/Q&As/eTray exercises and interviews are almost designed to make people give up!

ThunbergsAreGo

Dodge wrote: »

In many ways CS competitions are a war of attrition. Negotiating the form, online tests, supervised tests, presentations/Q&As/eTray exercises and interviews are almost designed to make people give up!

It has beaten me already!

Good luck to all applying

AndrewJRenko

naughtb4 wrote: »

Having had it crash on me after filling in about twenty percent (the fiddly stuff) and the long winded nature of the answers to questions, is really turning me off applying

JD1763 wrote: »

Anyone having issues with the online application form?

I've submitted but when I check it under my account none of the dropdown options - country, qualifications, first secretary option have saved my choices. The text fields and checkboxes are fine and have saved my entries.

Dodge wrote: »

In many ways CS competitions are a war of attrition. Negotiating the form, online tests, supervised tests, presentations/Q&As/eTray exercises and interviews are almost designed to make people give up!

Dealing with crap technology is a key skill requirement for anyone in CS - this is just part of the assessment process.

BL

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Dealing with crap technology is a key skill requirement for anyone in CS - this is just part of the assessment process.

I filled mine out using chrome. All seemed fine until I checked the submitted application and the drop down options appeared not to have been selected. However, when I checked using Internet Explorer I could see that my selections were saved correctly. Obviously some browsers have trouble displaying the saved application.

JD1763

BL wrote: »

I filled mine out using chrome. All seemed fine until I checked the submitted application and the drop down options appeared not to have been selected. However, when I checked using Internet Explorer I could see that my selections were saved correctly. Obviously some browsers have trouble displaying the saved application.

Can confirm this - Safari not showing any saved options, Firefox showed the completed form.

Chieftain

Does anyone know if you can use the aptitude test scores from the recent HEO competition for this one?