NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

Arcade_Tryer

salomon wrote: »

And I really hope I don't end up there to find out first hand

I'd love to work there, if only to discover the truth.

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Really? There's over 7,000 people working in DSP. I thought there'd be far more than 272 APs.

Yeah, I made a bad miscalculation. It's obviously a massive department.

ZolaGood

tea and coffee wrote: »

@spitommedickie my understanding was that the last panel closed at the end of March , not May

found the circular and the 2015 panel closes 30 April 2017...so a bit of time for them to get things in order. I wonder are they still taking from it??

StreetMain

Hi all, I haven't posted here before but have been following the discussion for the past couple of weeks - since just after my interview.
I too have been successful in the AP competition - in the 40's on the InterD and 60's in the open. As advice to future candidates I recommend doing a mock interview and/or interview training as it helped me enormously.
Although the interviews are now over I want to mention (shamelessly plug!) - for future reference for those interested - the services of the person who helped me: RD Interview skills; Tel: 0852049100; E mail: rdinterviews at gmail.com.
Colleagues of mine in recent EO and HEO competitons have also been successful in using these services - I'm sure the contact details have cropped up on other discussion boards. I can't recommend it highly enough.
Good luck to all on panels waiting for appointments.
And next week the First Sec interview ... !

kippy

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

Fair point. Just goes to show how easy it is to stereotype and generalise about the Public Sector. Some people make a living off of it and yet call Civil Servants lazy and overpaid.

It's easy to stereotype and generalise about anything really - not just the public/civil service.

Looking at the figures it does appear the DSP is a little light on AP's however that is in comparison to revenue. I would assume there are a lot of "specialists" working in AP grade in revenue - not necessarily managing staff etc. Would this be a correct assumption?

johntune

kippy wrote: »

It's easy to stereotype and generalise about anything really - not just the public/civil service.

Looking at the figures it does appear the DSP is a little light on AP's however that is in comparison to revenue. I would assume there are a lot of "specialists" working in AP grade in revenue - not necessarily managing staff etc. Would this be a correct assumption?

From what I know of DSP they have reduced their number of APs substantially. In any particular area there would have been an AP over DSP, an AP over FAS and an AP over community welfare. These 3 roles have been amalgamated into one role in many areas since FAS and Community Welfare joined DSP.

cee_jay

johntune wrote: »

From what I know of DSP they have reduced their number of APs substantially. In any particular area there would have been an AP over DSP, an AP over FAS and an AP over community welfare. These 3 roles have been amalgamated into one role in many areas since FAS and Community Welfare joined DSP.

:eek:

That's a tough role then. I started my career in the civil service as an EO in a Local Office. The AP had responsibility for the local office and Inspectorate staff - approx. 80 staff in total.
To now amalgamate responsibility for FAS and community welfare staff in an office of that size - that is more responsibility than a lot of POs I know of in other departments!

duffer247

cee_jay wrote: »

:eek:

That's a tough role then. I started my career in the civil service as an EO in a Local Office. The AP had responsibility for the local office and Inspectorate staff - approx. 80 staff in total.
To now amalgamate responsibility for FAS and community welfare staff in an office of that size - that is more responsibility than a lot of POs I know of in other departments!

I know in FÁS there wasn't a huge amount of APs, a training centre manager (circa 20) was an AP and they would responsible for a lot of staff, functions, budget, learners/apprentices and the centre itself. In my view a very senior role, there would also be APs in their Head Office I'm guessing responsible for a hole unit like HR. Under these APs were Ast. Managers and were naturally more common; I understand when they moved to DSP they became APs which increased their potential earnings. Ast Managers amalgamating with ETBs (former VECs) have not been given AP grade.

luckyboy

kippy wrote: »

I would assume there are a lot of "specialists" working in AP grade in revenue - not necessarily managing staff etc. Would this be a correct assumption?

Revenue is/was made up of 15 or so divisions, each headed by an A/Sec. In many of these, such as the CGs, or any of the geographic regions (SW, BMW, ESE and Dublin), an AP would typically manage anything from 10-50 staff (higher numbers in the CGs generally).

In other divisions like LCD, APs are often "case managers" rather than staff managers and don't have anybody reporting to them. Similarly, in the "tax technical" divisions, like VAT, IT, CGT etc, an AP's role might be to interpret/advise on queries about, say, R&D or Transfer Pricing or something and would have few if any staff management responsibilities. These "specialists" are typically recruited by specific-purpose Open AP competitions run by Revenue (which has its own recruitment licence), so they probably wouldn't be looking for candidates from this panel for such roles anyway.

If I were to guess, I would say at least 300 of the 400 APs in Revenue are managers of staff, and some of them manage a lot of staff ...

ZolaGood

luckyboy wrote: »

Revenue is/was made up of 15 or so divisions, each headed by an A/Sec. In many of these, such as the CGs, or any of the geographic regions (SW, BMW, ESE and Dublin), an AP would typically manage anything from 10-50 staff (higher numbers in the CGs generally).

In other divisions like LCD, APs are often "case managers" rather than staff managers and don't have anybody reporting to them. Similarly, in the "tax technical" divisions, like VAT, IT, CGT etc, an AP's role might be to interpret/advise on queries about, say, R&D or Transfer Pricing or something and would have few if any staff management responsibilities. These "specialists" are typically recruited by specific-purpose Open AP competitions run by Revenue (which has its own recruitment licence), so they probably wouldn't be looking for candidates from this panel for such roles anyway.

If I were to guess, I would say at least 300 of the 400 APs in Revenue are managers of staff, and some of them manage a lot of staff ...

God 50 staff would be a nightmare even without the day to day leave approvals etc . I've never seen an AP with more than about 10 staff under them and that would be with 2 HEO's as a buffer!

luckyboy

ZolaGood wrote: »

God 50 staff would be a nightmare even without the day to day leave approvals etc . I've never seen an AP with more than about 10 staff under them and that would be with 2 HEO's as a buffer!

The Revenue AP would also have a proportionate buffer of HEOs, so when I said about managing 50 staff, I suppose I meant "have ultimate responsibility for" 50 staff. The AP would only have the 7/8 HEOs on his/her Peoplepoint. They, in turn, would have the 20-odd EOs, who would have the COs ...

ZolaGood

luckyboy wrote: »

The Revenue AP would also have a proportionate buffer of HEOs, so when I said about managing 50 staff, I suppose I meant "have ultimate responsibility for" 50 staff. The AP would only have the 7/8 HEOs on his/her Peoplepoint. They, in turn, would have the 20-odd EOs, who would have the COs ...

I know but I think the bigger the team the bigger the headache! Although I think the likes of revenue and dsp are well oiled machines -I'm probably thinking of the offices I've worked with 50 people and a less organised structure -no EO's with staff , EO's needing to go to AP's directly etc -that would be a nightmare!

salomon

I know this has probably been asked before but if you want to stay in your current dept can you tell P AS about that preference. I've spoken to HR and they'll let PAS know they want to keep me so should I double up and tell PAS?

TIA

eoinola

salomon wrote: »

I know this has probably been asked before but if you want to stay in your current dept can you tell P AS about that preference. I've spoken to HR and they'll let PAS know they want to keep me so should I double up and tell PAS?

TIA

a lot depends on whether or not your current departments allocations from the Open and Inter-Departmental panels have already been made. There is a sequencing pattern in place for the filling of AP vacancies and your department might owe several posts to its Internal panels. As a result they may not be in the position to recruit from the Open and Inter-Departmental panels for the moment as the remainder of vacancies at AP will be filled from the internal competitions. Complicated stuff!

gics

FYI DSP'S internal panel expires on 01/04/17 and so far they have not progressed to the next stage of setting up a new one

Radial

Hi all, just reading this thread. Making very interesting reading so thanks to all who have contributed. I'm a non civil servant with a place on the open panel.

One thing that puzzles me though is what is the difference between the interdepartmental and internal panels? I know the interdepartmental was determined by the current competition but how are internal panels formed?

JD1763

Interdepartmental is a promotion of a civil servant between departments for example HEO in D/Finance moves to D/PER as an AP on promotion.  Internal is restricted to civil servants already serving within a department and would not be advertised externally.

trashcan

JD1763 wrote: »

Interdepartmental is a promotion of a civil servant between departments for example HEO in D/Finance moves to D/PER as an AP on promotion.  Internal is restricted to civil servants already serving within a department and would not be advertised externally.

I think you misunderstood the question, from my reading of it. It was to do with how the internal panels are formed. I went for AP in my department a couple of years ago and it was a presentation/interview followed by a second interview if you got through the first stage (I didn't, but that's another story.)

tea and coffee

Both answers are right, in different ways! In my department it's interview and then 2nd interview for a recent internal HEO for example

JD1763

Apologies I did misread - in my department the internal process consisted of completing a similar form to the PAS one but not as long or detailed followed by an interview to cut the numbers down.  Everyone who submitted a completed form was interviewed.  
If you got through the first round,  you were reinterviewed and ranked on the panel.

JD1763

Double post.

bobbysands81

gics wrote: »

FYI DSP'S internal panel expires on 01/04/17 and so far they have not progressed to the next stage of setting up a new one

DSP are piggybacking on the first two stages of this competition and using those stages to go straight to Interview stage I thought?

johntune

bobbysands81 wrote: »

DSP are piggybacking on the first two stages of this competition and using those stages to go straight to Interview stage I thought?

Yes you are correct. The last I heard they were still waiting for a list from PAS but that was a good few weeks ago now.

Radial

Thanks for the info guys. Clear now on what it means. A panel formed for promotion within a Department.

gics

I have details for 22 people if anyone wants to compare regional info

ZolaGood

johntune wrote: »

Yes you are correct. The last I heard they were still waiting for a list from PAS but that was a good few weeks ago now.

Between the First sec and DSP there may be a good few siphoned off the top of the panel meaning we might move up a few places when we get our regional breakdowns. I'm anxiously waiting on mine and resisting the urge to contact PAS again!

Unknowed

ZolaGood wrote: »

johntune wrote: »

Yes you are correct. The last I heard they were still waiting for a list from PAS but that was a good few weeks ago now.

Between the First sec and DSP there may be a good few siphoned off the top of the panel meaning we might move up a few places when we get our regional breakdowns. I'm anxiously waiting on mine and resisting the urge to contact PAS again!

Why would the top of the panel automatically go to DSP?

ZolaGood

Unknowed wrote: »

Why would the top of the panel automatically go to DSP?

I presume they will pull a certain Amount to interview depending on the size of panel needed so I guess they will work from the top. Or will the chance only be offered to DSP staff on the panel?

DeirdreDee

The DSP internal competition is using Stage 2 PAS results to shortlist for interview DSP staff who made it to Stage 2.

duffer247

I asked already but just another shout out to anybody doing the First Secretary interview. Appears to be quite a unique role. Have received very limited info from PAS and when I asked about the nature of the interview they said everything had already been sent. What they've sent me is about 6 bullet points on First Secretary role incl Manage PMDS etc.
I'm wondering about the likelihood of being asked competency questions again.

gics

Does anyone have any idea do transfer lists get priority when a vacancy opens up?

The_Conductor

gics wrote: »

Does anyone have any idea do transfer lists get priority when a vacancy opens up?

Depends entirely on the Department- however, the two massively decentralised Departments DSFP and Agriculture- would normally have been trying to do an internal transfer for a protracted period of time- before the position would officially feature elsewhere (at all). No idea how other Departments/Agencies function- however, I imagine it would be similar.

gics

duffer247 wrote: »

I asked already but just another shout out to anybody doing the First Secretary interview. Appears to be quite a unique role. Have received very limited info from PAS and when I asked about the nature of the interview they said everything had already been sent. What they've sent me is about 6 bullet points on First Secretary role incl Manage PMDS etc.
I'm wondering about the likelihood of being asked competency questions again.

If I was you I would search back and find the last AP thread on boards and go through it. There is bound to be someone there who did the first sec interview. I would personally think it's going to be a brand new interview and will cover everything and more but that's just opinion not based on knowledge and considering only successful candidates are called for first sec interview no one here is ever going to have done it. Sorry can't be anymore help

gics

The_Conductor wrote: »

Depends entirely on the Department- however, the two massively decentralised Departments DSFP and Agriculture- would normally have been trying to do an internal transfer for a protracted period of time- before the position would officially feature elsewhere (at all). No idea how other Departments/Agencies function- however, I imagine it would be similar.

Thanks, I had heard recently of more than one person getting passed over for transfer only for the vacancy to be filled by promotion, I suppose I was kinda hoping there would be some sort of ratio system, if not I have no hope

salomon

DeirdreDee wrote: »

The DSP internal competition is using Stage 2 PAS results to shortlist for interview DSP staff who made it to Stage 2.

Does that rule out DSP for the rest of us?

seamie78

salomon wrote: »

Does that rule out DSP for the rest of us?

no the way it works is that depts. take 1/3 from the open 1/3 from interd and 1/3 from the open

Riskymove

salomon wrote: »

Does that rule out DSP for the rest of us?

No

The Slow One

PAS confirmed to one of the PSEU branches that they expect 200 posts to be filled from this competition and forecast 40 to be filled from the AP Higher competition started last month.

Given the size of the initial of the InterD and Open panels, the few who won't accept a position (they got a better alternative in the private sector for example) and the few who will be on both the AP standard and AP Higher panels, I would expect that most people who passed Stage 2 but didn't get in the top 205 (Open) or 128 (InterD) will get an interview late this year or next year.

The_Conductor

salomon wrote: »

Does that rule out DSP for the rest of us?

No- it means there will be gaps in the panel placements on the open panel- e.g. if DSP take candidates numbered 1,4,5,9,11 from the open panel- towards their internal quota- the open panel no longer has candidates numbered 1,4,5,9,11- without there having been an appointment from the open panel- i.e. the people on the open panel get placed faster than they might otherwise have done..........

dee75

Anyone thinking of applying for AP in Revenue, just advertised last week?

ZolaGood

dee75 wrote: »

Anyone thinking of applying for AP in Revenue, just advertised last week?

Is that open to non revenue staff

Past30Now

dee75 wrote: »

Anyone thinking of applying for AP in Revenue, just advertised last week?

I'll apply for it. I work in finance and have a fair bit of tax experience, so I'll apply and see if it gives me a decision to make.

Past30Now

ZolaGood wrote: »

Is that open to non revenue staff

It's an open competition.

dee75

ZolaGood wrote: »

Is that open to non revenue staff

Yep - it's an open competition. I think I'll chance an application too! Closing date isn't until 13th April at 1pm. It's the same competencies as this competition.

The requirements are:

"You must have a minimum of Level 8 on the National Framework of Qualifications (Honours Bachelor Degree level) having taken either taxation, accounting, law, business, economics, statistics or a financial discipline as a major subject in the final degree examination or qualification as an accountant, solicitor or barrister (i.e. membership or entitlement to membership of a recognised professional body in these areas)
And
A minimum of 3 years relevant management experience (as described in Section 3), in a large professional firm, a large corporate business or Public Sector Organisation"

Cornfield

The Slow One wrote: »

PAS confirmed to one of the PSEU branches that they expect 200 posts to be filled from this competition and forecast 40 to be filled from the AP Higher competition started last month.

Thanks for this has this information been published anywhere?

Past30Now

Cornfield wrote: »

Thanks for this has this information been published anywhere?

It appeared on the publicjobs.ie website, and linked to the careers section of the revenue.ie website.

ZolaGood

dee75 wrote: »

Yep - it's an open competition. I think I'll chance an application too! Closing date isn't until 13th April at 1pm. It's the same competencies as this competition.

The requirements are:

"You must have a minimum of Level 8 on the National Framework of Qualifications (Honours Bachelor Degree level) having taken either taxation, accounting, law, business, economics, statistics or a financial discipline as a major subject in the final degree examination or qualification as an accountant, solicitor or barrister (i.e. membership or entitlement to membership of a recognised professional body in these areas)
And
A minimum of 3 years relevant management experience (as described in Section 3), in a large professional firm, a large corporate business or Public Sector Organisation"

Don't qualify although I would love to work in Revenue...glad I don't have to face another competition in any event-I'm burnt out after the last two!

The_Conductor

dee75 wrote: »

Yep - it's an open competition. I think I'll chance an application too! Closing date isn't until 13th April at 1pm. It's the same competencies as this competition.

The requirements are:

"You must have a minimum of Level 8 on the National Framework of Qualifications (Honours Bachelor Degree level) having taken either taxation, accounting, law, business, economics, statistics or a financial discipline as a major subject in the final degree examination or qualification as an accountant, solicitor or barrister (i.e. membership or entitlement to membership of a recognised professional body in these areas)
And
A minimum of 3 years relevant management experience (as described in Section 3), in a large professional firm, a large corporate business or Public Sector Organisation"

I have a major in Stats- but in all honesty- I'm fatigued from applying for all of these competitions- and badly bruised from my last interview in Revenue. Think I'll sit this one out........

Omnishambles99

The Slow One wrote: »

PAS confirmed to one of the PSEU branches that they expect 200 posts to be filled from this competition and forecast 40 to be filled from the AP Higher competition started last month.

Given the size of the initial of the InterD and Open panels, the few who won't accept a position (they got a better alternative in the private sector for example) and the few who will be on both the AP standard and AP Higher panels, I would expect that most people who passed Stage 2 but didn't get in the top 205 (Open) or 128 (InterD) will get an interview late this year or next year.

Just to clarify are you talking about ppl who got lower than place 1047 (or something like that ) may get a chance ?

dee75

The_Conductor wrote: »

I have a major in Stats- but in all honesty- I'm fatigued from applying for all of these competitions- and badly bruised from my last interview in Revenue. Think I'll sit this one out........

Can I ask what happened in your revenue interview?

I'm gonna stick in an application for this one and I have an interview with Revenue week after next for a solicitor role, and the only other interview I've done in the last decade was the recent AP one.

noodler

Omnishambles99 wrote: »

Just to clarify are you talking about ppl who got lower than place 1047 (or something like that ) may get a chance ?

Nope.

Stage 1 people who didn't make it to stage two are gone essentially.

But the stage 2 people 205+ who didn't get an interview, some of them almost certainly will.