NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

deskbottle

Any idea about DFA then?....as in, how many typically would they take form that separate DFA panel? Even ballpark?

Winterspring

deskbottle wrote: »

Any idea about DFA then?....as in, how many typically would they take form that separate DFA panel? Even ballpark?

I think last year they took about 10, they might have gone past that as time went on. They were slow to draw down from what I remember and a lot of people took ap instead of waiting.

Redderneck

If you take AP does that then remove you from the DFA panel? Either definitively so, or 'in effect' even though technically speaking, not?

The_Conductor

Redderneck wrote: »

If you take AP does that then remove you from the DFA panel? Either definitively so, or 'in effect' even though technically speaking, not?

If PAS follow the letter of the law (whereby for internal candidates to apply for competitions of a particular level, they can only apply for competitions with a maximum salary scale highest point greater than their current scale highest point) - you are ruled out of the DFA panel by taking an open position (and vice versa).

dee75

The_Conductor wrote: »

If PAS follow the letter of the law (whereby for internal candidates to apply for competitions of a particular level, they can only apply for competitions with a maximum salary scale highest point greater than their current scale highest point) - you are ruled out of the DFA panel by taking an open position (and vice versa).

So by that, would it suggest that DFA would need to take X number of people from their mini panel before those people are offered AP positionso? As otherwise they will have missed the boat!

Cornfield

This was discussed earlier. Appointment to one doesn't affect the other. Also, candidates wouldn't have been at the equivalent grade at the time of applying.

Festy_O_Semtex

The_Conductor wrote: »

Redderneck wrote: »

If you take AP does that then remove you from the DFA panel?  Either definitively so, or 'in effect' even though technically speaking, not?

If PAS follow the letter of the law (whereby for internal candidates to apply for competitions of a particular level, they can only apply for competitions with a maximum salary scale highest point greater than their current scale highest point) - you are ruled out of the DFA panel by taking an open position (and vice versa).

If that is true and I'm not disputing it, it would seem to be somewhat perverse. It would mean that someone at No 5 on a First Sec panel might take AP because you could not be sure how many, if any DFA might take, yet some punter who ends up No 20 on First Sec panel might get a post instead at the level, which lets face it, is the creme de la creme post of the Assistant Principal grade. I would expect that posts would be offered as you go down the panel on merit even if you had taken an "Ordinary " AP Post. 
Whats the point in having these second interviews for First Sec then?. You might as well put all the names of successful AP candidates into a hat and draw whatever DFA need out of it for 1st Sec Posts

Winterspring

Festy_O_Semtex wrote: »

The_Conductor wrote: »

Redderneck wrote: »

If you take AP does that then remove you from the DFA panel?  Either definitively so, or 'in effect' even though technically speaking, not?

If PAS follow the letter of the law (whereby for internal candidates to apply for competitions of a particular level, they can only apply for competitions with a maximum salary scale highest point greater than their current scale highest point) - you are ruled out of the DFA panel by taking an open position (and vice versa).

If that is true and I'm not disputing it, it would seem to be somewhat perverse. It would mean that someone at No 5 on a First Sec panel might take AP because you could not be sure how many, if any DFA might take, yet some punter who ends up No 20 on First Sec panel might get a post instead at the level, which lets face it, is the creme de la creme post of the Assistant Principal grade. I would expect that posts would be offered as you go down the panel on merit even if you had taken an "Ordinary " AP Post. 
Whats the point in having these second interviews for First Sec then?. You might as well put all the names of successful AP candidates into a hat and draw whatever DFA need out of it for 1st Sec Posts

It causes a lot of disruption to other departments. If you are 5th on ap then you will be called very quickly on ap. If you accept that post it could be another 6 months before DFAT offer you a post and if you accept then the department that has spent 6 months training you up has to start all over again. Lots of people turn down First Secretary. I don't think people see it as the Creme these days even if DFAT would like to think otherwise.

tea and coffee

Winterspring wrote: »

It causes a lot of disruption to other departments. If you are 5th on ap then you will be called very quickly on ap. If you accept that post it could be another 6 months before DFAT offer you a post and if you accept then the department that has spent 6 months training you up has to start all over again. Lots of people turn down First Secretary. I don't think people see it as the Creme these days even if DFAT would like to think otherwise.

this does happen. Justice lost a good few newly appointed APs in the last round/panel when DFAT started working down their 1st sec panel that had run alongside the AP one.

Doctor Benway

Cornfield wrote: »

This was discussed earlier. Appointment to one doesn't affect the other. Also, candidates wouldn't have been at the equivalent grade at the time of applying.

Not quite. Only those who are appointed to AP from the Open Panel are eligible for subsequent offer of First Sec. Those who take AP from the Interdepartmental Panel are excluded. No particular logic to it, but the conditions for the two panels are slightly different. That's certainly what happened with the current panel(s), i.e. the ones arising from the 2015 competition.

Cornfield

Doctor Benway wrote: »

Cornfield wrote: »

This was discussed earlier. Appointment to one doesn't affect the other. Also, candidates wouldn't have been at the equivalent grade at the time of applying.

Not quite. Only those who are appointed to AP from the Open Panel are eligible for subsequent offer of First Sec. Those who take AP from the Interdepartmental Panel are excluded. No particular logic to it, but the conditions for the two panels are slightly different. That's certainly what happened with the current panel(s), i.e. the ones arising from the 2015 competition.

That makes sense actually, if DFA only want to consider those who ranked highest in the assessments.

Omnishambles99

Doctor Benway wrote: »

Not quite. Only those who are appointed to AP from the Open Panel are eligible for subsequent offer of First Sec. Those who take AP from the Interdepartmental Panel are excluded. No particular logic to it, but the conditions for the two panels are slightly different. That's certainly what happened with the current panel(s), i.e. the ones arising from the 2015 competition.

So god love a serving third secretary who, by virtue of placing and bad luck is appointed off the interdept rather than open panel, decides to take the AP post and gives up any chance of staying in the diplomatic stream whereas the third secretary who gets offered an AP post off the open panel can easily take this in the knowledge that he/she can wait it out for the first secretary vacancy to come up ...

Doctor Benway

Omnishambles99 wrote: »

So god love a serving third secretary who, by virtue of placing and bad luck is appointed off the interdept rather than open panel, decides to take the AP post and gives up any chance of staying in the diplomatic stream whereas the third secretary who gets offered an AP post off the open panel can easily take this in the knowledge that he/she can wait it out for the first secretary vacancy to come up ...

True, except that you can turn down an offer from the inter-departmental panel and you'll still get an offer from the open panel, and vice versa. It may be that the second offer is for the same Department as the first, or it may be a different one, even leaving aside the issues around regional panels.

Redderneck

The Mrs is going to need a Jesuit to explain all this to her.

deskbottle

It does seem totally counterproductive from them but I just got the following confirmed from PAS (and in fairness, you guys have already spelled this out but just to confirm):

For any Open competition candidates:

You can accept an AP offer and then, while in the AP job, you can then accept an offer from DFA for First Sec. So really you've nothing to lose by just accepting an AP offer straight away. The only reason you'd reject an AP offer and wait for the First Sec one is if you're in no rush.

ZolaGood

I wonder can those that are existing civil servants say they want to be considered off the open stream if they are hoping for a first sec offer? Am I making sense it's v confusing to me

deskbottle

Just ring them. In fairness they're very helpful and they never asked me my name when I rang (so you won't be flagged as annoying!)

Doctor Benway

ZolaGood wrote: »

I wonder can those that are existing civil servants say they want to be considered off the open stream if they are hoping for a first sec offer? Am I making sense it's v confusing to me

Yes. But they don't even have to say that they want to be considered. It should occur automatically.

What happens is that once you're placed on the panels (i.e. the open and the interdepartmental, provided you applied for both), you will get an offer from PAS. It may be from the open or from the interdepartmental. It's up to you whether you accept it or not. If you turn it down, you won't be eligible for any further offers in the same location and from the same panel. However, you will remain eligible for offers from the other panel.

Supposing I want to be a First Secretary, and I'm on the two panels, as well as on the First Secretary panels. I get an offer as AP in Agriculture, for example, from the interdepartmental panel. I say no thanks, because I want to keep my options open. Then I get an offer in Justice, from the open panel. I take that job, but I remain on the open First Secretary panel, and may or may not be offered a position in DFA, depending on the numbers they recruit over the next while.

Festy_O_Semtex

This whole First Sec selection process seems to be somewhat perverse and I'm not sure it would stand up legally were it to be challenged. The First Sec posts should be offered on the order of merit of the First Sec panel and let people accept or decline them as appropriate, and sort out the "damage" to AP panels afterwards.
In order to make an informed decsion, you would have to know the following:
1. How many AP vacancies are there excluding First Sec?
2. How many are going to be filled from the InterD?
3. How many are going to be filled from the Open? This is further complicated by the fact that the bulk of people are on both Open and Interd panels?
4. How many do DFAT propose to take off First Sec list
5. Hire a Jesuit to explain it all

Doctor Benway

Festy_O_Semtex wrote: »

This whole First Sec selection process seems to be somewhat perverse and I'm not sure it would stand up legally were it to be challenged. The First Sec posts should be offered on the order of merit of the First Sec panel and let people accept or decline them as appropriate, and sort out the "damage" to AP panels afterwards.
In order to make an informed decsion, you would have to know the following:
1. How many AP vacancies are there excluding First Sec?
2. How many are going to be filled from the InterD?
3. How many are going to be filled from the Open? This is further complicated by the fact that the bulk of people are on both Open and Interd panels?
4. How many do DFAT propose to take off First Sec list
5. Hire a Jesuit to explain it all

But that is how it works. The posts are offered on the order of merit of the panel. The difficulty, of course, is that posts are only offered as vacancies arise. Given the numbers of AP vacancies vs First Sec vacancies, it's inevitable that you'll have a situation where someone is offered AP and subsequently (even a year or more later) offered First Sec. DFA and other Departments may have a rough idea of how many vacancies are likely to arise over the lifetime of the panel, but they're only ever going to be an estimate.

What is strange is the distinction between InterD and Open for the First Sec vacancies. There doesn't seem to be any logic to it, as far as I can see. However, for questions 2 and 3, the answer should be 50% from each, i.e. the same numbers drawn from both panels. As I understand it, DPER have indicated that AP vacancies (which would apply also to First Secs) should be filled on a 1:1:1 basis - for every vacancy filled internally within the Department, another should be filled from the Interdepartmental panel, and a further one from the open panel. There's also an issue of debts to the external panels to be resolved.

deskbottle

Has anyone ANY idea when clearance will finish and offers will start to be issued?....

salomon

deskbottle wrote: »

Has anyone ANY idea when clearance will finish and offers will start to be issued?....

At a guess, 6 weeks from the date of the last missive from PAS!

Past30Now

deskbottle wrote: »

Has anyone ANY idea when clearance will finish and offers will start to be issued?....

I got the clearance email on 10 April, and they stated that they'd be in touch within six weeks with an update on my application. Therefore I'm forgetting about it until 22 May.

I say forgetting, then I check this conversation every day!

gics

I'd be happy with even regional information but they don't seem like they are going to provide that

ZolaGood

Well the panel officially comes into place on 1st may so if some departments start screaming for AP's after that there might be a bit of movement. I'm not in the top 50 open so I'm not expecting a call any time soon for Dublin but my regional placing is crucially important to me seeing if I get to stay where I am or not so my patience is wearing thin:)

Omnishambles99

For anyone who's interested, a new junior diplomat/third secretary competition has just been announced by PAS, check website for details

The_Conductor

Omnishambles99 wrote: »

For anyone who's interested, a new junior diplomat/third secretary competition has just been announced by PAS, check website for details

Is that interchangeable with AO in other government Departments- or is it specifically and only for DFA? I.e. could a home Department make a case to keep a third sec- at the AO grade- instead of releasing them to DFA- if requested to do so?

Doctor Benway

The_Conductor wrote: »

Is that interchangeable with AO in other government Departments- or is it specifically and only for DFA? I.e. could a home Department make a case to keep a third sec- at the AO grade- instead of releasing them to DFA- if requested to do so?

It's specifically and only for DFA.

Omnishambles99

The_Conductor wrote: »

Is that interchangeable with AO in other government Departments- or is it specifically and only for DFA? I.e. could a home Department make a case to keep a third sec- at the AO grade- instead of releasing them to DFA- if requested to do so?

Yup, specifically for Dfat as they are applying to enter the diplomatic recruitment stream, distinct from general service stream, and they only work in DFAT (excepting of course a very small number of secondments to taoiseachs I think)

bobbysands81

deskbottle wrote: »

Has anyone ANY idea when clearance will finish and offers will start to be issued?....

There can't be any offers until May 1st at earliest as the previous panel is in place until then.

Dodge

Omnishambles99 wrote: »

Yup, specifically for Dfat as they are applying to enter the diplomatic recruitment stream, distinct from general service stream, and they only work in DFAT (excepting of course a very small number of secondments to taoiseachs I think)

There are secondments to finance too, but generally shorter than the standard secondment. With EU Division gone back to DFAT since November, there's no third secs left in Taoiseach (there maybe be 1/2 at any time though)

of course the answer is stil that Third Secretaries aren't interchangeable with AOs

In times past 3rd Secs were confined to Diplomatic grades for the rest of their career but with open recruitment all over the CS, many leave for AP, PO posts elsewhere now

Omnishambles99

Dodge wrote: »

There are secondments to finance too, but generally shorter than the standard secondment. With EU Division gone back to DFAT since November, there's no third secs left in Taoiseach (there maybe be 1/2 at any time though)

of course the answer is stil that Third Secretaries aren't interchangeable with AOs

In times past 3rd Secs were confined to Diplomatic grades for the rest of their career but with open recruitment all over the CS, many leave for AP, PO posts elsewhere now

Aye indeed, with the advent of opening of the senior management grades to all, it'll be interesting to see the breakdown of those successful third secretaries/first secretaries who choose the promotion into the general service stream , thereby foregoing a diplomatic career (with the exception of the odd general service grade (HEO, AP and PO) officer being sent to an overseas mission ) and on the other hand, those who remain in the diplomatic stream and forego a promotion

JD1763

More than you might think to be honest - serving in an overseas mission is not always the amazing experience people think it is especially as a third sec.

dee75

Out of curiosity would anyone know if there is information online (or anecdotal) about how many AP's were placed from the 2015 competition?

I know that this information will have no bearing on what happens with placements in this competition but I'm just curious.

I was reading back over bits of the 2015 AP thread and it looks like several batches were created:

First batch - 90 people
Second batch - 70 people
Third batch - not sure how many

There must have been a good number of placements between November 2015 (when first offers went out) to end April 2017. It must have been around 200 in total?

Who knows what the rate will be this time around!!

Doctor Benway

dee75 wrote: »

I was reading back over bits of the 2015 AP thread and it looks like several batches were created:

First batch - 90 people
Second batch - 70 people
Third batch - not sure how many

There must have been a good number of placements between November 2015 (when first offers went out) to end April 2017. It must have been around 200 in total?

Who knows what the rate will be this time around!!

There were definitely at least four batches. People who didn't get through the initial online testing (but didn't fail any part of it) were subsequently called to the second and third stages. I'd say 200 is a conservative estimate.

gics

DSP are preparing to move on the next stage of the Internal panel

sodacake1968

gics wrote: »

DSP are preparing to move on the next stage of the Internal panel

Has anyone any idea of numbers for the internal dsp competition

bobbysands81

dee75 wrote: »

Out of curiosity would anyone know if there is information online (or anecdotal) about how many AP's were placed from the 2015 competition?

I know that this information will have no bearing on what happens with placements in this competition but I'm just curious.

I was reading back over bits of the 2015 AP thread and it looks like several batches were created:

First batch - 90 people
Second batch - 70 people
Third batch - not sure how many

There must have been a good number of placements between November 2015 (when first offers went out) to end April 2017. It must have been around 200 in total?

Who knows what the rate will be this time around!!

Anecdotally I heard approx 300 APs were appointed in the 18 months preceding this comp.

I've no idea how accurate this number is but I'd say it's close enough to being true. They got to people who finished higher 1,000 on the order of Merit, and with folk saying that circa 70% failed e-tray/interview then that stat stacks up.

The_Conductor

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Anecdotally I heard approx 300 APs were appointed in the 18 months preceding this comp.

I've no idea how accurate this number is but I'd say it's close enough to being true. They got to people who finished higher 1,000 on the order of Merit, and with folk saying that circa 70% failed e-tray/interview then that stat stacks up.

While I hear what you're saying- using the 18 months prior to this competition as any manner of a yardstick- is misleading in the extreme (given the decade of complete moratoriums on recruitment- preceded by deliberate 1-in-3 and 1-in-4 replacement policies in some Departments for the decade previous to that again. I.e. there is a staggering amount of pent-up demand to be satisfied. We're now back to more historic replacement rates- alongside a few new Divisions/Sections in some Departments like DFA and Agriculture- looking at Brexit, trade opportunities etc etc- that will feature open chequebook recruitment.

I'd be far more hopeful of the panel proceding from e-tray/interview failures- than a vast recruitment campaign- however, that said- it is good to see 'normalisation' and ongoing recruitment too........

dee75

Was doing a bit of googling here at lunchtime, and spotted this in a PSEU newsletter from February 2017: -

"At AP2 level, from July 2015 to the end of 2016, a total of 330 posts were filled; 110 internally, 64 by inter-departmental panels and 85 by open competition. A more detailed Dept. by Dept. breakdown will be
available shortly and will issue to Branches."

So there we have it! 330 AP posts filled up to end December 2016, and presumably a few more since then.

If only we could look forward to similar numbers for this competition! But, alas, no! :rolleyes:

spitonmedickie

dee75 wrote: »

Was doing a bit of googling here at lunchtime, and spotted this in a PSEU newsletter from February 2017: -

"At AP2 level, from July 2015 to the end of 2016, a total of 330 posts were filled; 110 internally, 64 by inter-departmental panels and 85 by open competition. A more detailed Dept. by Dept. breakdown will be
available shortly and will issue to Branches."

So there we have it! 330 AP posts filled up to end December 2016, and presumably a few more since then.

If only we could look forward to similar numbers for this competition! But, alas, no! :rolleyes:

I've seen some people mention some Departments might "owe" to the open panel - is that based on the figures above which aren't exactly 1:1:1 or am I misinterpreting things?

Rosiebeans81

dee75 wrote: »

Was doing a bit of googling here at lunchtime, and spotted this in a PSEU newsletter from February 2017: -

"At AP2 level, from July 2015 to the end of 2016, a total of 330 posts were filled; 110 internally, 64 by inter-departmental panels and 85 by open competition. A more detailed Dept. by Dept. breakdown will be
available shortly and will issue to Branches."

So there we have it! 330 AP posts filled up to end December 2016, and presumably a few more since then.

If only we could look forward to similar numbers for this competition! But, alas, no! :rolleyes:

So it's unlikely they will get past the 100 mark on either panels this time around I suppose! Back to the drawing board! 😟

Winterspring

dee75 wrote: »

Was doing a bit of googling here at lunchtime, and spotted this in a PSEU newsletter from February 2017: -

"At AP2 level, from July 2015 to the end of 2016, a total of 330 posts were filled; 110 internally, 64 by inter-departmental panels and 85 by open competition. A more detailed Dept. by Dept. breakdown will be
available shortly and will issue to Branches."

So there we have it! 330 AP posts filled up to end December 2016, and presumably a few more since then.

If only we could look forward to similar numbers for this competition! But, alas, no! :rolleyes:

But other than d/sp presume the numbers relevant to the pas competition are the interdepartmental and the open. The internal appointments could be from internal competitions not done through pas.

Riskymove

Rosiebeans81 wrote: »

So it's unlikely they will get past the 100 mark on either panels this time around I suppose! Back to the drawing board! 😟

It is likely that the 64 on the Interd panel are all also on Open

So the Open may have gone beyond 150

The_Conductor

Winterspring wrote: »

The internal appointments could be from internal competitions not done through pas.

They still count towards the 1:1:1 ratio- regardless of whether they were through PAS, or not.

dee75

The newsletter did say something (possibly on another date) about both the interdep and open panels being "owed" numbers.

Winterspring

Agree, the ratio is supposed to be 1.1.1. just meant that the number drawn from the pas panel was probably not including the internal appointments in terms of numbers they took from those panels. So for guessing the numbers they took from last year's open and interdepartmental panels you would exclude the internal number.

The_Conductor

Winterspring wrote: »

Agree, the ratio is supposed to be 1.1.1. just meant that the number drawn from the pas panel was probably not including the internal appointments in terms of numbers they took from those panels. So for guessing the numbers they took from last year's open and interdepartmental panels you would exclude the internal number.

No- its done from a specific date- not from where the candidates came from- and the AHCPS and the PSEU- keep a damn close eye on the actual numbers- trying to benefit both their members to the best of their abilities.

The ratio holds- regardless of where the candidates originally came from. Candidates from other Departments obviously have a very strong incentive to ensure the internal DSP candidates are properly enumerated- as it impacts on the Interdepartmental (and external panels).

Doctor Benway

The_Conductor wrote: »

No- its done from a specific date- not from where the candidates came from- and the AHCPS and the PSEU- keep a damn close eye on the actual numbers- trying to benefit both their members to the best of their abilities.

The ratio relates to the panels: Internal : Interdepartmental : Open. The date relates to the debt. As there wasn't an Interdepartmental or Open panel for years, the question arose as to whether there was a debt owed to them from internal Departmental competitions, and what date that debt would apply from.

So winterspring is right. If you want to know how many were taken from the 2016 AP competition, you would look at the inter-departmental and open figures only, and discount the internal ones, which were not filled from that competition.

gics

Does anyone know are certain departments exempt from this ratio? Like for example Revenue?

I don't think we can really go on the last panel, it's a pity there is no info on projected retirement figures it would give a better idea.