NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

Link3n

Just spoke to PAS, yeah going to be dribs and drabs now. Apparently, batch 2 won't get places for locations for another month. This waiting game is the worst!!

GenevaW

SpinningDizzy wrote: »

I'm in batch 2 and phoned PAS yesterday. I was told that batch 1 had cleared the backlog of vacancies and that new vacancies would only arise in "dribs and drabs" and not to expect anything soon.

Link3n wrote: »

Just spoke to PAS, yeah going to be dribs and drabs now. Apparently, batch 2 won't get places for locations for another month. This waiting game is the worst!!

Does that mean they've officially reached the end of Batch 1 (Dublin)? Hopefully the new PO competition will open up a few vacancies!

Killer K

It sounds like from the above that not that many from batch 2 will end up getting an offer.

Riskymove

Killer K wrote: »

It sounds like from the above that not that many from batch 2 will end up getting an offer.

I wouldn't take that interpretation

The panel has some time to run yet

As mentioned there was a backlog as there was no panel for a period of time and that backlog is now done.

There will now be the usual rate of vacancies

Killer K

Yes, but as you say, the backlog has been cleared so I would imagine the usual rate of vacancies, even factoring in PO competition would mean the many in batch two will not receive an offer.
Does anybody have any idea of the success rate from batch 2 interviews? I emailed PAS but they said they were not permitted to say until the expiry of the panel.
This would potentially give some indication of PAS' expectation of vacancies occurring.

bobbysands81

Killer K wrote: »

It sounds like from the above that not that many from batch 2 will end up getting an offer.

There's 16 months left on the lifetime of the Panel.

I'd be very surprised if most people on the Panel for Dublin for Batch 2 don't get called.

Dribs and drabs is all that's needed.

Killer K

bobbysands81 wrote: »

There's 16 months left on the lifetime of the Panel.

I'd be very surprised if most people on the Panel for Dublin for Batch 2 don't get called.

Dribs and drabs is all that's needed.

Not being smart but dribs and drabs would hardly provide enough places for over 100 candidates. I do hope you are correct..

bobbysands81

Killer K wrote: »

Not being smart but dribs and drabs would hardly provide enough places for over 100 candidates. I do hope you are correct..

It's cool, I don't mind explaining my rationale.

I’m working with old figures here so maybe bear with me…

In 2014 there were 3,424 APs. (source - http://www.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/Civil-Service-Renewal-Background-Data-October-2014.pdf )

According to recent stats over half APs are aged 55+, that’s more than 1,700 APs. Therefore 1,700 APs are potentially less than 5 years (but no more than 10) away from retirement (remember all of these are pre-95 so full pension kicks in for many before 65).

Therefore (statistically) at least 170 will retire in any given year. There is currently 16 months left on the Panel so it is safe to say that in just keeping the status quo between now and 1st November 2018 (when Panel expires) there will be (statistically) at least 225 vacancies (170 divided by 12 and multiplied by 16) due ONLY to mandatory retirement (it’s my opinion that 170 is at the lower end of estimates).

There will also be other vacancies due to APs getting promoted, APs leaving the Civil Service altogether, APs taking early retirement, APs retiring on ill health and APs dying in service (unfortunately). Granted these may be quite few but all feed in to the dribs and drabs.

Of these 225 vacancies, a minimum of 2 out of every 3 will be filled from the Open and the Interdepartmental Panel. It would be safe to assume that some people who get promoted internally will have been on the Open and/or InterD Panel too. Granted this might only be a handful but again that’s all that’s needed to keep the dribs and drabs going. So in my opinion 150 people in Batch 2, at the very least, will be offered positions. Of course not everyone will accept for various reasons so that number is likely to slide down closer to 200. As I’m being conservative with my estimates I would imagine that most, if not all, in Batch 2 who have Dublin down as a preference will get an offer.


In Batch 1 it seems that circa 150 out of 208 made the Panel. If we bring these stats to Batch 2, and we know that 250 were called, then approx 185 made the Panel.

I'd go as far as saying that there is an chance that a third small Batch might be called... but at that stage Departments may hold out for any new AP comp on November 2018 (guaranteed to be one straight away after this expires due to age profile) or will pull from any internal ones that are in place (creating another deficit to be filled from Nov 2018 comp).

Killer K

Fair play bobbysands81. That is a very detailed and encouraging piece of analysis! I appreciate the detailed explanation.

I didn't realise that there were that many APs to begin with.

There is also a very favourable margin in your analysis based on number of potential vacancies and panel size.

Is there any indications that of the existing AP positions that some might be phased out when the person retires?

bobbysands81

Killer K wrote: »

Fair play bobbysands81. That is a very detailed and encouraging piece of analysis! I appreciate the detailed explanation.

I didn't realise that there were that many APs to begin with.

There is also a very favourable margin in your analysis based on number of potential vacancies and panel size.

Is there any indications that of the existing AP positions that some might be phased out when the person retires?

If anything I think the numbers of APs will increase due to issues such as the economy continuing to grow, our readiness for Brexit, new Taoiseach (new priorities), possible changes to American tax system and even the new Government Department that's been announced... but then I am an eternal optimist!

ZolaGood

Congratulations Salomon:)

sodacake1968

There's always a remit to suppress posts especially in the current climate. I know of at least 2 departments that are in excess of their DPER figures (overall) and are actively seeking post suppression

bobbysands81

sodacake1968 wrote: »

There's always a remit to suppress posts especially in the current climate. I know of at least 2 departments that are in excess of their DPER figures (overall) and are actively seeking post suppression

They have to have appointed people in order to have too many posts filled.

Shouldn't change outcome.

GenevaW

Has anyone from Batch 2 been contacted yet?

shibbyj

GenevaW wrote: »

Has anyone from Batch 2 been contacted yet?

PAS told me the other day that it will be several weeks before there will be an update and that batch 1 is still in progress .

DeirdreDee

Just wondering how those recently appointed as APs are finding it? Is it everything you hoped it would be??

paul3581

GenevaW wrote: »

Has anyone from Batch 2 been contacted yet?

I'm in the top ten on batch2 and haven't heard anything from PAS yet

In relation to the actual hours of work for an AP, is there any sign of flexitime being restored? I understand it was being reviewed after it was removed as part of Haddington Road. I'm in the private sector with fairly flexible hours at the moment, if I have to actually be in the office until 5.45 every day I'll have to turn down the AP offer as I have a creche pick up to get to before 6.

Uriel.

paul3581 wrote: »

I'm in the top ten on batch2 and haven't heard anything from PAS yet

In relation to the actual hours of work for an AP, is there any sign of flexitime being restored? I understand it was being reviewed after it was removed as part of Haddington Road. I'm in the private sector with fairly flexible hours at the moment, if I have to actually be in the office until 5.45 every day I'll have to turn down the AP offer as I have a creche pick up to get to before 6.

Hasn't been restored yet. Not sure when or if it will.

Depending what time you need to leave you'll probably be able to leave earlier under local arrangements. Completely depends on the job though and your management.

That said, while it may not be an everyday occurrence, depending on the job your in, even leaving at 5.45 every day is not guaranteed. But it's a bit of lottery in terms of where you end up.

Mancomb Seepgood

paul3581 wrote: »

I'm in the top ten on batch2 and haven't heard anything from PAS yet

In relation to the actual hours of work for an AP, is there any sign of flexitime being restored? I understand it was being reviewed after it was removed as part of Haddington Road. I'm in the private sector with fairly flexible hours at the moment, if I have to actually be in the office until 5.45 every day I'll have to turn down the AP offer as I have a creche pick up to get to before 6.

I'm pretty sure that AP's aren't eligible for flexitime anymore and haven't been for some time.At one point AP's could choose whether they wanted to participate in flexi or not and a few still have it from that time.

I'm on batch 2 myself and flexi is a big sacrifice (currently HEO). That said, it's been my experience that in practice there is a bit of flexibility for AP's about when they come and go but I would understand that in some sections that may not be the case.

deskbottle

I'm about to start as an AP and was sent an email by HR saying the whole office, irrespective of rank, can avail of Flexi time. Start anytime between 0800-1000 and finish anytime between 1600-1900. Lunch has to be between 30mins-2hrs between 1230-1430

deskbottle

Does anyone know from experience, is there any point going for the PO competition? If you finished high up in the AP Comp have you any chance??

Uriel.

deskbottle wrote: »

Does anyone know from experience, is there any point going for the PO competition? If you finished high up in the AP Comp have you any chance??

Broadly, competitions are always worth a punt. In reality the chances of doing well depends on your performance at the various assessments phases. Underpinned with all of that, of course, is your own experience and achievements.

I've seen COs and EOs getting AP, HEOs getting PO etc.
As a HEO for example you could have worked on some significant projects with huge outcomes utilising all of the competencies required under the PO competition.
Many people have significant non-civil service experience also which can demonstrate the required competencies as well.

Outside of performance on the day at assessment centers, individual experience is the main thing that counts in going for a position.

Danesfort101

Hi, I'm number 65 on the order of merit, Batch 2 and only have a Regional location chosen. I haven't heard anything and part of me doesn't expect to. I rang to find out my place on the Regional Panel and felt like I was wasting their time in PAS. ..... Very few jobs outside of Dublin was more or less what was said. :-(

gics

Danesfort101 wrote: »

Hi, I'm number 65 on the order of merit, Batch 2 and only have a Regional location chosen. I haven't heard anything and part of me doesn't expect to. I rang to find out my place on the Regional Panel and felt like I was wasting their time in PAS. ..... Very few jobs outside of Dublin was more or less what was said. :-(

To be honest most of us with regional locations on batch one were told the exact same thing and so far there has been very little regional movement. It really depends on your region & assume it will be later in the lifetime of the competition

hardybuck

deskbottle wrote: »

I'm about to start as an AP and was sent an email by HR saying the whole office, irrespective of rank, can avail of Flexi time. Start anytime between 0800-1000 and finish anytime between 1600-1900. Lunch has to be between 30mins-2hrs between 1230-1430

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. The arrangement was that people at AP who had it kept it until they moved grade, and no new appointments at AP level got access to it.

Rosiebeans81

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. The arrangement was that people at AP who had it kept it until they moved grade, and no new appointments at AP level got access to it.

To my (limited) knowledge it is sometimes granted at local level as long as you work the hours required and stay within the constraints of the core hours they allow it in a lot of places.

hardybuck

Rosiebeans81 wrote: »

To my (limited) knowledge it is sometimes granted at local level as long as you work the hours required and stay within the constraints of the core hours they allow it in a lot of places.

Rather than being granted, it's probably that the rules aren't being enforced by the organisation/manager involved.

GenevaW

deskbottle wrote: »

I'm about to start as an AP and was sent an email by HR saying the whole office, irrespective of rank, can avail of Flexi time. Start anytime between 0800-1000 and finish anytime between 1600-1900. Lunch has to be between 30mins-2hrs between 1230-1430

Would you mind PMing me what Dept you got? I'd love to get somewhere with this local arrangment

Rosiebeans81

hardybuck wrote: »

Rather than being granted, it's probably that the rules aren't being enforced by the organisation/manager involved.

Possibly yes, but if the correct number of hours are being completed and the work being done is done well I don't see there being any issue in local arrangements. I know if I was ever to get an AP post I'd be delighted to accept the flexi time if it was made available to me.

Congrats on the post deskbottle and hope it works out well!

Riskymove

Rosiebeans81 wrote: »

Possibly yes, but if the correct number of hours are being completed and the work being done is done well I don't see there being any issue in local arrangements. I know if I was ever to get an AP post I'd be delighted to accept the flexi time if it was made available to me.

Congrats on the post deskbottle and hope it works out well!

its one thing if your manager is agreeing locally that you work 8-5 or whatever

that isn't the same as being on the flexi time clock with the ability to take flexi leave etc

Uriel.

Rosiebeans81 wrote: »

Possibly yes, but if the correct number of hours are being completed and the work being done is done well I don't see there being any issue in local arrangements. I know if I was ever to get an AP post I'd be delighted to accept the flexi time if it was made available to me.

Congrats on the post deskbottle and hope it works out well!

In many AP jobs, more than the required hours are delivered. In my view it is about give and take, providing nobody takes the p1$$. A good manager should be able to work with staff about what works the best and delivers the most without sticking to global rules.

Rosiebeans81

Uriel. wrote: »

In many AP jobs, more than the required hours are delivered. In my view it is about give and take, providing nobody takes the p1$$. A good manager should be able to work with staff about what works the best and delivers the most without sticking to global rules.

Exactly yes.

hardybuck

Uriel. wrote: »

In many AP jobs, more than the required hours are delivered. In my view it is about give and take, providing nobody takes the p1$$. A good manager should be able to work with staff about what works the best and delivers the most without sticking to global rules.

Agreed. Definitely more than the required hours are delivered by most, some obviously do the bare minimum also.

I'd love to see that email if it went around a Department as described, that's another matter entirely.

deskbottle

hardybuck wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. The arrangement was that people at AP who had it kept it until they moved grade, and no new appointments at AP level got access to it.

It's correct.......and being perfectly frank, there's not a chance I'd be working in a position at this senior a level without some kind of a common sense arrangement in place to accommodate family commitments, etc.

hardybuck

deskbottle wrote: »

It's correct.......and being perfectly frank, there's not a chance I'd be working in a position at this senior a level without some kind of a common sense arrangement in place to accommodate family commitments, etc.

http://circulars.gov.ie/pdf/circular/per/2013/11.pdf

Going by the above it's not. Unless it's been revoked and replaced with something else coming out of the recent pay talks?

Local arrangements, i.e. your PO being too busy to be bothered about things like this, are one thing. An organisation choosing to ignore a Circular entirely - that's another matter.

Omnishambles99

deskbottle wrote: »

I'm about to start as an AP and was sent an email by HR saying the whole office, irrespective of rank, can avail of Flexi time. Start anytime between 0800-1000 and finish anytime between 1600-1900. Lunch has to be between 30mins-2hrs between 1230-1430

For clarification purposes (and I think there's a bit of confusion on the issue of flexi here) access to the flexible working hours arrangement is available to staff who are subject to the clocking in system - ie : 4 clock records per day -morning evening and 2 at lunchtime.

That way staff can "work up" in excess of their 43 odd hours per week - therefore "building up " flexi credit (up to a maximum of 11 and a half hours i think) with which the staff member can avail of additional flexi leave (outside of their annual leave entitlement) up to a maximum of 1 and a half leave days per 4 week flexi period .

In relation to APs (all new ones and the majority of existing ones ) they are not required to clock in and out and therefore do not accumulate hours on a flexi clock system and therefore are not in a position to take "flexi" leave.

Given that in a year, a staff member on the flexi clock system (HEO/AO and below for the most part with a smattering of long serving APs) could potentially take 18 "flexi leave " days per year if they work up the required hours each month , this is a significant loss for anyone moving from these grades to an AP post .

Re an APs flexibility in terms of working hours, while they are not "slaves to the clock" they invariably work above and beyond the 43 hours per week required without any extra renumeration - however, it is clearly stated in the circular for the competitions that the salary takes account of any extra hours worked

Hope this is of benefit information wise to some

bobbysands81

deskbottle wrote: »

I'm about to start as an AP and was sent an email by HR saying the whole office, irrespective of rank, can avail of Flexi time. Start anytime between 0800-1000 and finish anytime between 1600-1900. Lunch has to be between 30mins-2hrs between 1230-1430

If you're relying on flexitime I'd clarify that applies to an AP before you take the post, the answer you get will be completely different to what's in the email.

Flexitime is no longer available to new APs (though I wouldn't be surprised if it comes back at some stage in the future), flexible working arrangements might be available in some offices but they are completely discretionary and can be taken away as quickly as they're given.

Rosiebeans81

Has anyone heard anything from PAS recently? Particularly any movement in the regions for
anyone at all?

bobbysands81

Rosiebeans81 wrote: »

Has anyone heard anything from PAS recently? Particularly any movement in the regions for
anyone at all?

Yes!!! I just got an email from them... to fill out a feckin survey.

ZolaGood

I got an email that there was a message in my inbox nearly had a heart attack thinking it was my regional offer ...,no fear..a bloody survey!!

ZolaGood

snap Bobbysands

Rosiebeans81

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Yes!!! I just got an email from them... to fill out a feckin survey.

God almighty! Do they not realise how on edge we could be waiting for the call or email!! Hate that .

gics

I'm sure every time they send out something like that they get a flurry of calls for updates as it just makes everyone lose patience with them

noodler

bobbysands81 wrote: »

If you're relying on flexitime I'd clarify that applies to an AP before you take the post, the answer you get will be completely different to what's in the email.

Flexitime is no longer available to new APs (though I wouldn't be surprised if it comes back at some stage in the future), flexible working arrangements might be available in some offices but they are completely discretionary and can be taken away as quickly as they're given.

It makes perfect sense to be honest.

APs have a psotion of responsiblity anf are paid @70k.

They can't have the majority of them leaving at 4pm every day or being on leave 30+18 days per year.

Alot of the time built up for flexi leave by staff on lower grades is done on a very questionable productivity basis.

shibbyj

More principal officer jobs advertised for those interested and qualified.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/corporate/information-about-revenue/careers/career-opportunities.aspx

Omnishambles99

noodler wrote: »

It makes perfect sense to be honest.

APs have a psotion of responsiblity anf are paid @70k.

They can't have the majority of them leaving at 4pm every day or being on leave 30+18 days per year.

Alot of the time built up for flexi leave by staff on lower grades is done on a very questionable productivity basis.

Haha! Did you ever get suspicious of the pressing business need for full attendance by a large amount of staff until 7pm on the Friday of the final week of flexi ?? Lol !!!

bobbysands81

Check your mails folks!!!

Dolly1978

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Check your mails folks!!!

What does this message mean re the campaign?

gics

What is it?

Past30Now

Nothing in my inbox. Whats up?