NEW 2016 Open and Interdepartmental Assistant Principal in Civil Service competition.

bobbysands81

raffles wrote: »

My HR got contacted by PAS last week and asked about my PMDS, sick leave record etc. I am way down on the panels, so I am assuming PAS is doing checks for everyone from batch 2 at the moment.

Any chance of a very rough indication of where you are on Batch 2?

Dublin and one regional. I'm in the later half of the panel.

Edit: now that I think of it the call from PAS might have been unrelated to this competition.

coloneldecker

raffles wrote: »

My HR got contacted by PAS last week and asked about my PMDS, sick leave record etc. I am way down on the panels, so I am assuming PAS is doing checks for everyone from batch 2 at the moment.

I'm way down the panel and last Friday someone from my HR rang me out of the blue and after a few minutes of weird conversation she asked me was I on the AP panel and some follow up questions. I asked what put the AP comp into her head and she said "ah we just get updates from PAS every now and again" which sounded odd. I hadnt told anyone in HR I was on the panel but the conversation makes way more sense if it turns out HR had been contacted by PAS in relation to this competition.

Zoolujookie

Regional panels are out for batch 2 (finally!!). I contacted pas on Thursday on the off chance and got my 2 locations-based on open they won't give interD. Also I think all people on batch 2 had their hr contacted on Thurs for SL and pmds. Sounds to me like they are just been prepared!

Uriel.

Yeah I've been hearing that batch 2 will see a significant amount of movement very quickly

coloneldecker

Zoolujookie wrote: »

Regional panels are out for batch 2 (finally!!). I contacted pas on Thursday on the off chance and got my 2 locations-based on open they won't give interD. Also I think all people on batch 2 had their hr contacted on Thurs for SL and pmds. Sounds to me like they are just been prepared!

Do they do a Dublin panel and give out placings if asked in the same way as they do regional ones?

Rosiebeans81

For anyone on regional panels. I am batch one and have moved from position 10 to 5 for Limerick when I checked on Friday.

Zoolujookie

coloneldecker wrote: »

Do they do a Dublin panel and give out placings if asked in the same way as they do regional ones?

Hey. I'm not sure as I have 2 regional selections-chances are with those though!!! I would be very surprised of they didn't have a dublin figure for those on B2.

coloneldecker

Zoolujookie wrote: »

Hey. I'm not sure as I have 2 regional selections-chances are with those though!!! I would be very surprised of they didn't have a dublin figure for those on B2.

I'll give them a ring at some stage this week and see what they say, I'm far enough down the panel that there's no panic, its more of a curiosity.

Killer K

Uriel. wrote: »

Yeah I've been hearing that batch 2 will see a significant amount of movement very quickly

Was that from a phone call to PAS or other sources?

Uriel.

Killer K wrote: »

Was that from a phone call to PAS or other sources?

Other sources.

Any one from batch 2 had any luck ascertaining their position on Dublin location? I called PAS and I was told they haven't moved to batch 2 and I couldn't get an update on my position

coloneldecker

Irish.sherpa wrote: »

Any one from batch 2 had any luck ascertaining their position on Dublin location? I called PAS and I was told they haven't moved to batch 2 and I couldn't get an update on my position

That seems weird given that they haven't moved on to Batch 2 for regions either but they're giving info on Batch 2 region positions out.

ZolaGood

coloneldecker wrote: »

Irish.sherpa wrote: »

Any one from batch 2 had any luck ascertaining their position on Dublin location? I called PAS and I was told they haven't moved to batch 2 and I couldn't get an update on my position

That seems weird given that they haven't moved on to Batch 2 for regions either but they're giving info on Batch 2 region positions out.

They never gave Dublin positions in Batch 1 either as the panel moved so quickly once it started. They could give a rough idea of when you would be reached based on your overall ranking once the offers started. The regional panels don't move as quickly (or at all in some cases!!)

shibbyj

I was told today that they have not yet reached Batch 2 for regional placing so no info available. I'm regional only.

Zoolujookie

shibbyj wrote: »

I was told today that they have not yet reached Batch 2 for regional placing so no info available. I'm regional only.

Have you tried Dave in clearance.he's the one that gave me my position numbers.am regional only also!

Uriel.

Irish.sherpa wrote: »

Any one from batch 2 had any luck ascertaining their position on Dublin location? I called PAS and I was told they haven't moved to batch 2 and I couldn't get an update on my position

Don't be surprised to see a reasonably large batch of offers made together, or at least that they will move down the panel quickly... don't forget there will be a decent amount of duplication on the two panels (open/inter departmental).

ThumbTaxed

Honest question. How do you feel about taking a job ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job and the only reason you are getting it is because of the inadequate way PAS and the civil service hire?

No, it isn't sour grapes by the way. I am speaking on behalf of those better qualified on internal promotion lists or open panels who are blocked by such persons.

Uriel.

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Honest question. How do you feel about taking a job ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job and the only reason you are getting it is because of the inadequate way PAS and the civil service hire?

No, it isn't sour grapes by the way. I am speaking on behalf of those better qualified on internal promotion lists or open panels who are blocked by such persons.

In what way are hiring practices inadequate?

gics

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Honest question. How do you feel about taking a job ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job and the only reason you are getting it is because of the inadequate way PAS and the civil service hire?

No, it isn't sour grapes by the way. I am speaking on behalf of those better qualified on internal promotion lists or open panels who are blocked by such persons.

I'm sorry but what makes you qualified to say who is more suited or not for a position. Recruitment processes are in place for internal, interdepartmental & open candidates which have been worked out by skilled qualified people in order to treat everyone in the fairness way possible and the individuals sitting on the panel are highly qualified in their field therefore I would be of the opinion are able to judge what makes a good AP. If its the sequence of filling vacancies you are concerned with them again that was agreed between civil service bodies and unions in order to treat all panels in the fairest way possible. How you think you are more qualified to judge than all these people shocks me & to me can only be sour grapes. At a guess I would say you can't make it through the testing (which many people who would make good APs cant but a recruitment process cant be designed that suits everyone as individuals have different skills) and therefore are left with the internal only option and are so far down the panel you'll not get called. Feel free to contradict me but it is beyond arrogant to say that you or anyone else is better qualified just because of what panel you are on. Many of us are on all three panels so that in itself contradicts what you've said.

JD1763

I and many others feel that the open competitions are a fairer process compared to internal competitions. They may be tougher to get through but it is a more meritocratic process and eliminates the vagaries and office politics of internal competitions.

You may not like the fact that you have to get through the battery of tests to get an interview but ultimately everyone in that seat before the panel is on a level playing field to sell themselves. The same cannot be said of internal competitions where colleagues are interviewing those they may know by reputation or previous encounters and there is an inherent bias that exists even if it is not acknowledged by the panel.

In the open process, all those on the various panels have demonstrated to the interview board's satisfaction that they are capable of fulfilling the role. If you are not competitive in the open competitions you would help yourself more by taking a hard look at why you may not have made it and working on improving that for next time instead of trying to find fault with the process.

ThumbTaxed

gics wrote: »

I'm sorry but what makes you qualified to say who is more suited or not for a position. Recruitment processes are in place for internal, interdepartmental & open candidates which have been worked out by skilled qualified people in order to treat everyone in the fairness way possible and the individuals sitting on the panel are highly qualified in their field therefore I would be of the opinion are able to judge what makes a good AP. If its the sequence of filling vacancies you are concerned with them again that was agreed between civil service bodies and unions in order to treat all panels in the fairest way possible. How you think you are more qualified to judge than all these people shocks me & to me can only be sour grapes. At a guess I would say you can't make it through the testing (which many people who would make good APs cant but a recruitment process cant be designed that suits everyone as individuals have different skills) and therefore are left with the internal only option and are so far down the panel you'll not get called. Feel free to contradict me but it is beyond arrogant to say that you or anyone else is better qualified just because of what panel you are on. Many of us are on all three panels so that in itself contradicts what you've said.

This is funny.

ThumbTaxed

JD1763 wrote: »

I and many others feel that the open competitions are a fairer process compared to internal competitions. They may be tougher to get through but it is a more meritocratic process and eliminates the vagaries and office politics of internal competitions.

You may not like the fact that you have to get through the battery of tests to get an interview but ultimately everyone in that seat before the panel is on a level playing field to sell themselves. The same cannot be said of internal competitions where colleagues are interviewing those they may know by reputation or previous encounters and there is an inherent bias that exists even if it is not acknowledged by the panel.

In the open process, all those on the various panels have demonstrated to the interview board's satisfaction that they are capable of fulfilling the role. If you are not competitive in the open competitions you would help yourself more by taking a hard look at why you may not have made it and working on improving that for next time instead of trying to find fault with the process.

Some Fair points here but ultimately in an internal competition only those in the job will go meaning the skillsets can be matched. How does it make sense for someone to get a position in a technical role because they bluffed their way through interviews and don't have a CV to match.

Also why is having a reputation a bad thing for promotion. Surely that's the point, not picking someone because they did a good 45 minute interview?

megabomberman

Notifications are imminent folks. Existing Civil servants are getting their background checks this week. I reckon a bunch of Dublin posts will be offered any day now.

JD1763

Depends if the reputation is deserved or not!

I would suspect that many civil servants would argue that the role they are in demands a certain skillset and experience. But the reality is that departments have to promote 1/1/1 and pay back the debts owed from internal promotions. There is no choice but to take people from each panel and this has been agreed to on a collective basis. I'm not saying the process is perfect or could not be improved but it is what we've got for the foreseeable future.

I think those of us in the civil service have no choice but to face up to the fact that more and more promotion opportunities are going to be based in the open process and it falls to us to ensure we can compete. It does not matter how we feel about this - it is the new reality. We can no longer rely on the internal process to move us up the ladder no matter what area we work in or how specialised or technical it may be.

Ultimately there are no obstacles to us competing in any of the competitions we just have to prepare ourselves for that process to give ourselves the best chance of getting through to the interview where our experience and qualifications will help us stand out compared to the other candidates. In fact, the open process gives us more opportunities to advance - you can do open, interd and internal comps and end up sitting on multiple panels instead of just one.

I'm not a fan of the process having been through it and I understand your frustration at positions being taken ahead of you, especially if you are in a very specialised area but you'll only set yourself back by not engaging with the process. The best thing to do is just accept the changes and work them to maximise the benefit to you. Apply for every competition you are eligible for, build that experience and knowledge of the process and it will stand to you.

Killer K

Quick question. For the E-vetting process, would a court conviction of a speeding offence mean you wouldn't get through that process?

Riskymove

Killer K wrote: »

Quick question. For the E-vetting process, would a court conviction of a speeding offence mean you wouldn't get through that process?

I sincerely doubt it

coloneldecker

I rang this morning to try to get my place on the Dublin panel but told they don't keep a specific Dublin panel which seems weird, I would've thought they'd have the panels done up for each region but apparently they do them all except Dublin.

The guy told me the open placing was a very good indication of Dublin placing as there were very few people without Dublin as a selection which again seems weird given that a good few people on here seem to be regional only. He also said that being on both open and interdepartmental is no advantage and the open is all that really matters.

So basically I know no more after that call than I did before, if anything, I know less!!

Bottlescrew

Sounds peculiar. It makes sense as long as everyone is on the internal and external panel, it wouldn't matter then. But if even one person is open and not inter-d, then it will distort the numbers. It must be for PAS convenience, but I thought that they had to appoint in rotation from open, inter D and internal panels.

Riskymove

Bottlescrew wrote: »

but I thought that they had to appoint in rotation from open, inter D and internal panels.

It is Departments that must follow the ratio not PAS

PAS will respond to requests from Departments

for example PAS oculd recieve requests from 10 Departments all seeking someone from Open Panel so next 10 would all be from Open

Link3n

Hi, Just wondering if anybody has the latest regarding batch 2. What number are they at for Dublin?
Anybody get their placing for regional locations?
Did anybody get an offer from batch 2 yet?
Would be great to get some clarification on the whole thing?

Killer K

Link3n wrote: »

Hi, Just wondering if anybody has the latest regarding batch 2. What number are they at for Dublin?
Anybody get their placing for regional locations?
Did anybody get an offer from batch 2 yet?
Would be great to get some clarification on the whole thing?

We are all trying to put together various pieces of info that we have. If you read back over the threads from the past forthright I think that is as much as anybody knows.

My take on it, for what it is worth, is that there are about 30 positions to be offered to batch 2 and that this will happen fairly soon. Optimistically thinking that there will be a significant number of other offers made in the Autumn.

As far as I am aware no offers have been made from batch 2 as of yet.

sodacake1968

coloneldecker wrote: »

I rang this morning to try to get my place on the Dublin panel but told they don't keep a specific Dublin panel which seems weird, I would've thought they'd have the panels done up for each region but apparently they do them all except Dublin.

The guy told me the open placing was a very good indication of Dublin placing as there were very few people without Dublin as a selection which again seems weird given that a good few people on here seem to be regional only. He also said that being on both open and interdepartmental is no advantage and the open is all that really matters.

So basically I know no more after that call than I did before, if anything, I know less!!

there are 30 places in the difference between my open and inter positions so.....

sodacake1968

Riskymove wrote: »

It is Departments that must follow the ratio not PAS

PAS will respond to requests from Departments

for example PAS oculd recieve requests from 10 Departments all seeking someone from Open Panel so next 10 would all be from Open[/QUOTE

if rumours are to be believed certain departments have debts to various panels - not a very transparent process I'm afraid!!

Killer K

sodacake1968 wrote: »

Riskymove wrote: »

It is Departments that must follow the ratio not PAS

PAS will respond to requests from Departments

for example PAS oculd recieve requests from 10 Departments all seeking someone from Open Panel so next 10 would all be from Open[/QUOTE

if rumours are to be believed certain departments have debts to various panels - not a very transparent process I'm afraid!!

I wonder how much in reality it makes a difference. If there (and this is an estimate) are two thirds of applicants on open and interd whether the person is taken from the interd or open doesn't matter as in 2/3rds of cases it is the same person. Know very little on the internal process but imagine there is crossover there between interd and internal.

ZolaGood

But the offer you get will specify which panel you are coming from. For instance I turned down an Open Dublin offer and I got a further Inter D offer for Dublin (which I also turned down!) if I had accepted the open one of course I wouldn't have gotten the Inter D offer.

Link3n

ZolaGood wrote: »

But the offer you get will specify which panel you are coming from. For instance I turned down an Open Dublin offer and I got a further Inter D offer for Dublin (which I also turned down!) if I had accepted the open one of course I wouldn't have gotten the Inter D offer.

How do you get the offer? Is it by email or phone call?

Killer K

ZolaGood wrote: »

But the offer you get will specify which panel you are coming from. For instance I turned down an Open Dublin offer and I got a further Inter D offer for Dublin (which I also turned down!) if I had accepted the open one of course I wouldn't have gotten the Inter D offer.

That's my point though. Had you accepted one, you are gone from the batch and both panels.

bobbysands81

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Honest question. How do you feel about taking a job ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job and the only reason you are getting it is because of the inadequate way PAS and the civil service hire?

No, it isn't sour grapes by the way. I am speaking on behalf of those better qualified on internal promotion lists or open panels who are blocked by such persons.

As you're a Civil Servant who was obviously successful in an Open Competition (which you are criticising) are you going to resign as you have also taken a job "ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job"... or are you just going to be a hypocrite?

bobbysands81

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Honest question. How do you feel about taking a job ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job and the only reason you are getting it is because of the inadequate way PAS and the civil service hire?

No, it isn't sour grapes by the way. I am speaking on behalf of those better qualified on internal promotion lists or open panels who are blocked by such persons.

As you're a Civil Servant who was obviously successful in an Open Competition (which you are criticising) are you going to resign as you have also taken a job "ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job"... or are you just going to be a hypocrite?

ZolaGood

Link3n wrote: »

ZolaGood wrote: »

But the offer you get will specify which panel you are coming from. For instance I turned down an Open Dublin offer and I got a further Inter D offer for Dublin (which I also turned down!) if I had accepted the open one of course I wouldn't have gotten the Inter D offer.

How do you get the offer? Is it by email or phone call?

Message on your PAS message board

Killer K

ZolaGood wrote: »

Message on your PAS message board

Are they specific about the Department and the role in the mesage?

dee75

Killer K wrote: »

Are they specific about the Department and the role in the mesage?

Only the Department and county in my message. Plus a name and contact number for the person in that department's HR who will ring with full details and start date after (I haven't had the latter bit yet so hoping to hear early next week).

Killer K

dee75 wrote: »

Only the Department and county in my message. Plus a name and contact number for the person in that department's HR who will ring with full details and start date after (I haven't had the latter bit yet so hoping to hear early next week).

Thanks Dee. That has taken some more of the mystery out of it!

Hope you hear from HR soon. I take it that you are going through reference checks and E vetting at the moment and that is why there is a wait?

dee75

Killer K wrote: »

Thanks Dee. That has taken some more of the mystery out of it!

Hope you hear from HR soon. I take it that you are going through reference checks and E vetting at the moment and that is why there is a wait?

That's it exactly. I'm external so they wanted a reference from my current employer (although they classed current as where you were in December 2016 when we all applied rather than where you are right now). Because I was self-employed at that time I had to get two client references instead which took about a week or so to organise.

I also had to complete the online vetting form but it took only two days for vetting to come back!

ThumbTaxed

bobbysands81 wrote: »

As you're a Civil Servant who was obviously successful in an Open Competition (which you are criticising) are you going to resign as you have also taken a job "ahead of someone who is far better suited to that job"... or are you just going to be a hypocrite?

Someone coming from open competition can be far better than those internally looking for promotion so I seriously don't get your point.

Bias here is disappointing. Shows a lack of "critical thinking" especially for the high fliers who post here

noodler

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Someone coming from open competition can be far better than those internally looking for promotion so I seriously don't get your point.

Bias here is disappointing. Shows a lack of "critical thinking" especially for the high fliers who post here

I'd have to say that someone who was the AO or HEO in an area for a couple of years is generally far better equipped to do the AP role regardless of getting a marginally lower score in a generic and subjective job simulation test.

Its common sense to me.

Doesn't preclude an outsider coming in and doing a good job, although likely requiring a long bedding in period.

bobbysands81

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

Someone coming from open competition can be far better than those internally looking for promotion so I seriously don't get your point.

Bias here is disappointing. Shows a lack of "critical thinking" especially for the high fliers who post here

Why blame successful candidates for faults you perceive in the recruitment process?

If you actually followed your own logic then you would resign from the Civil Service as you got the job ahead of better placed candidates because of the terrible way that PAS run their competitions etc...

Uriel.

noodler wrote: »

I'd have to say that someone who was the AO or HEO in an area for a couple of years is generally far better equipped to do the AP role regardless of getting a marginally lower score in a generic and subjective job simulation test.

Its common sense to me.

Doesn't preclude an outsider coming in and doing a good job, although likely requiring a long bedding in period.

I don't agree with TT's position but what you are describing is not what competency based interviews are about. Knowledge of a particular role doesn't necessarily mean you have the skills required to do higher duty. Maybe you could go from HEO to AP in the same job and your knowledge will see you through and you might perform well, but eventually in the civil service you'll get moved around and the knowledge of a specific role is mostly lost and not transferable. Rather it is the skills and abilities (ie. The competencies) that are supposed to be transferable.

PAS is looking for those skills rather than your knowledge of a particular area of work. In those instances, an external person coming in might have the higher and better skills and once bedded in has a much higher skill ceiling that is transferable. That's what they want in our public sector.

Killer K

dee75 wrote: »

That's it exactly. I'm external so they wanted a reference from my current employer (although they classed current as where you were in December 2016 when we all applied rather than where you are right now). Because I was self-employed at that time I had to get two client references instead which took about a week or so to organise.

I also had to complete the online vetting form but it took only two days for vetting to come back!

That's interesting that they stick to December 2016 rigidly. However, I can see the logic in it.

Everything appears that little bit more complex when you are self employed!