Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2016/2017

Gbear

super_furry wrote: »

I think time might be running out for Origi. He hasn't developed at all and is exactly the same player he was when he first came into the squad. He looks raw and pacey but isn't living up to his potential.

Here's a fun exercise.

Have a look around Europe at all the attacking players that are tearing up trees in and around 21 years old.

You're probably thinking of names like Sterling, Renato Sanches, Leroy Sané, Martial, Kingsley Coman...

Interestingly, Origi has scored more than all of them.
And they all cost about £50m.

I'm probably wrong, but I think the only player around Origi's age who's outscored him is Timo Werner at RB Leipzig.
At any rate, there aren't many.

Even among the absolute sure thing phenomenal once in a generation level youngsters, young players pretty much don't contribute much on the whole and even when they do, they go through bad patches as well.

That's not to excuse Origi's performances, but if you're expecting something substantial you're probably not going to see it whether he's destined to be brilliant or avearge.

Personally, I don't think he has the skillset to be a top class striker, but when we're in a situation where we're probably going to be moving on the other 2 CFs at the club in the summer, he's 21, he has a long term contract, he has shown good form in the past and he's scoring at a rate better than 1 in 3 for us, there's absolutely no need to panic about him.

Harry Palmr

super_furry wrote: »

I think time might be running out for Origi. He hasn't developed at all and is exactly the same player he was when he first came into the squad. He looks raw and pacey but isn't living up to his potential.

Turtyturd wrote: »

Harsh on him I think. Decision making can be poor at times, but he's had two very good spells in the team over the last 2 seasons.

Origi needs to be made the first choice alternative "older style" centre forward with Firmino as the No 1 "new style" 9.5 as it's where he thrives. Origi blows hot and cold it's true but he is young and does stuff that certain other can't like run the channels.

ps just seen mention of Martial above - Utd were actually thinking about sending him out on loan (!) but will not do so

Gbear

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Origi needs to be made the first choice alternative "older style" centre forward with Firmino as the No 1 "new style" 9.5 as it's where he thrives. Origi blows hot and cold it's true but he is young and does stuff that certain other can't like run the channels.

ps just seen mention of Martial above - Utd were actually thinking about sending him out on loan!

I thought it was something we saw against Utd.

He didn't have a good game but being on the pitch helped us out in a way that having Sturridge there doesn't.

Even off form he can be a real pain in the arse for defenders because he can tussle with defenders, or make them afraid of pace in behind, or getting into a footrace with him.

It's the same thing with Mane. Even off form, he gives us something that we don't have when he's absent completely.

For Chelsea, I'd be going with our normal 4-3-3 with Origi on instead of Mané.

It's not ideal but I think that we'll at least be able to play our normal gameplan and not revert to the rubbish we've seen lately.

Agent Coulson

Henderson as a DM is also an elephant in the room.

Knex*

J Mysterio wrote: »

Thats just not true. If you rewatch the Southampton game you will see he was trying to prompt players (mainly Coutinho) to play it through by making a load of little runs in behind, all of the shoulder.

He attempts to play the shoulder, but he doesn't actually play it anymore. Any time they play balls through like that, ones that he would have gotten at his ease a few years ago, its always won off him, or he's a step too short etc.

He may still want to play that way, but he's not at all effective at it, unfortunately.

Knex*

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Henderson as a DM is also an elephant in the room.

I think he showed prior to his injury that he's more than capable for us. I was sceptical at first, if not downright against it, but he proved me wrong.

Having seen those performances, I'd be more inclined to believe its a blip in form than a lack of ability to play the role. Our issue is not having anyone else who can play that position, however.

Gbear

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Henderson as a DM is also an elephant in the room.

Is it?

What's the issue?

When he was getting the best stats of any midfielder in the league and we were on course for 80-85 pts what was the elephant doing?

As people astutely noticed, our midfield was a shambles when he disappeared from it.

His engine was doing a perfect job of driving this team so it's puzzling that he's getting flak when it's a lack of attacking players and width that's hamstringing us at the moment.

That's not to say I'd turn my nose up at Marco Verratti or whatever, but even so, that'd involve pushing Hendo further up the pitch rather than replacing him IMO.

He's hugely important to us as things stand. If we are to maintain this high-energy style of play for a full season, you'll struggle to find someone better suited to it than Hendo.

Harry Palmr

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Henderson as a DM is also an elephant in the room.

While I'd love a higher level talent it's that he is playing with Can and a malady that's holding him back right now - stick Wijnaldum and Lallana back in their correct places and his current weakness will not be half as apparent I imagine.

Iused2likebusts

I think hendo is the ideal DM in klopps system. He hasn't played well the last 2 games like a lot of the players.

Osmosis Jones

A midfield three of Henderson, Wijnaldum, and Lallana is perfect for how we play, frustrating that it's not the default.

Agent Coulson

Harry Palmr wrote: »

While I'd love a higher level talent it's that he is playing with Can and a malady that's holding him back right now - stick Wijnaldum and Lallana back in their correct places and his current weakness will not be half as apparent I imagine.

Maybe not but right now he slows everything down instead of moving it on at pace.

Henderson and Can in midfield are not the answer that's for sure only one of them should be starting.


Nothing is coming out of the defence or the midfield at pace at the moment.


If the ball is getting to the feet of Wijnaldum, Lallana, Firmino & Coutinho at pace that sets up the attack at pace because those players can think at pace and on the turn.

Right now Henderson as a DM slows the pace down.

Knex*

Harry Palmr wrote: »

While I'd love a higher level talent it's that he is playing with Can and a malady that's holding him back right now - stick Wijnaldum and Lallana back in their correct places and his current weakness will not be half as apparent I imagine.

That and providing him with an outlet that will get in behind, and allow him to play that quick transitioning pass. The whole team has been missing that since Mane left.

Buford T. Justice XIX

garra wrote: »

Yes I agree Can would be better in defence than midfield. Apart from being a big lump and not particularly mobile or zippy enough for the midfield we want, he doesn't have the passing precision required and also gets flustered when pressured from different angles and has shown little awareness of where his team mates are when receiving the ball under pressure. He would be better with the pitch in front of him and no responsibilities in building the play.

Where in defense do you think he would fit in? Too short for CB, too slow and with the turning radius of a supertanker, I doubt he is going to thrive at FB.

Gbear

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

The tweets from the former Welsh coach who has been banging on about how Klopp's training methods won't sustain a full season and/or lead to injuries and burnout look increasingly like he has a point:

I don't think we look burned out.
All squads will wax and wane over the course of a season. They'll tailor their fitness levels not just to maintain a certain level but to peak at specific times.

I just think the team and the squad aren't good enough to do what we want it to - win everything.

That's not a reason to train us in a systematically incorrect fashion.

He's here for the long term and the better the squad knows what he wants, the better we'll be when he gets the personnel right.

You can't play one way for the first 18 months and then **** that in the bin when you eventually have a squad as deep as you need.

I think you can point to issues of squad composition (IE signings in the last 3 windows by Klopp), issues of squad use, tactics or what have you, well before we need to worry about fitness.

Southampton didn't work harder than us to win. They worked smarter and had better balance.

Agent Coulson

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Maybe not but right now he slows everything down instead of moving it on at pace..............

You have to look at this over the course of a right few games, not just right now

Gbear

Actually did anyone think the pitch looked really slow last night?

It wasn't just Henderson's passing that seemed slow.
A lot of passes were crawling along the ground and a few times people looked like they were shaping to shoot at the edge of the box and then the ball just went ape**** and they had to pull out of it.

Are we finally going to relay the pitch next summer?
This home game advantage mightn't be much of an advantage if Anfield is like a halting site when March rolls around.

J Mysterio

Osmosis Jones wrote:

A midfield three of Henderson, Wijnaldum, and Lallana is perfect for how we play, frustrating that it's not the default.

__________Firmino____________
Coutinho______________Mane_
_____Wijnaldum__Lallana______
Milner_____Hendo_______Clyne
______Klavan_____Matip______

jebidiah

Gbear wrote: »

Actually did anyone think the pitch looked really slow last night?

It wasn't just Henderson's passing that seemed slow.
A lot of passes were crawling along the ground and a few times people looked like they were shaping to shoot at the edge of the box and then the ball just went ape**** and they had to pull out of it.

Are we finally going to relay the pitch next summer?
This home game advantage mightn't be much of an advantage if Anfield is like a halting site when March rolls around.

There was talk about the wind? I thought it was just people taking the p!ss but maybe not.

Fowler87

Osmosis Jones wrote:

A midfield three of Henderson, Wijnaldum, and Lallana is perfect for how we play, frustrating that it's not the default.

Agree but Can at DM (without Henderson) when on form offers so much more imo. Consistentcy is Emre' downfall atm. Would be a bold move by Klopp to drop his captain though

~Rebel~

super_furry wrote: »

I think time might be running out for Origi. He hasn't developed at all and is exactly the same player he was when he first came into the squad. He looks raw and pacey but isn't living up to his potential.

Yeah, how dare that 21 year old not have developed into a first team superstar by now!

Look, he's not the finished article yet, nor is there any need for him to be by this age. But he is without doubt one of the best 21 year old strikers in the world. Let's not be so quick to get rid of him. Have a feeling 24 year old Origi will be a serious player.

5starpool

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Yeah, how dare that 21 year old not have developed into a first team superstar by now!

Look, he's not the finished article yet, nor is there any need for him to be by this age. But he is without doubt one of the best 21 year old strikers in the world. Let's not be so quick to get rid of him. Have a feeling 24 year old Origi will be a serious player.

It's so hard to tell with players. He could turn out as good as Drogba, or just be a David N'Gog either.

~Rebel~

5starpool wrote: »

It's so hard to tell with players. He could turn out as good as Drogba, or just be a David N'Gog either.

As a comparison with N'Gog, in the premier league Origi and N'Gog have scored the same number of goals in a Liverpool shirt - 9 each. Origi has done it in half the number of games.

I think he's already playing at a much higher standard than N'Gog ever reached.

You're right of course though, in a general sense, we don't know he's going to be top drawer. But I think it's worth remembering the context here, just how talented he is for his age, and just how much room there is for improvement. Origi should be looked at as one of our positives, not one of our negatives.

Osmosis Jones

Fowler87 wrote: »

Agree but Can at DM (without Henderson) when on form offers so much more imo. Consistentcy is Emre' downfall atm. Would be a bold move by Klopp to drop his captain though

I think that could work as long as Can has Lallana and Wij in front of him. Can's not got a great range of passing but he's certainly better defensively than Henderson and if he's starting from a DM position he'll actually be able to power the ball forward, which is one of his main assets we've missed lately.

~Rebel~

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

I think that could work as long as Can has Lallana and Wij in front of him. Can's not got a great range of passing but he's certainly better defensively than Henderson and if he's starting from a DM position he'll actually be able to power the ball forward, which is one of his main assets we've missed lately.

Yes, we've really not exploited the gaps that come from the opposition closing all the passing options, leaving a route straight through the centre free and clear, NFL quarterback-run style. It's runs like that that open space, as you end up with one or two guys leaving their man to stop him, and suddenly we have free men in dangerous areas.

garra

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Where in defense do you think he would fit in? Too short for CB, too slow and with the turning radius of a supertanker, I doubt he is going to thrive at FB.

Can at 6'1" is too short for centre-back but Cannavaro would disagree. His biggest problem is awareness though at centre-back, at least he could see the play in front him there

doc_17

Can has been struggling for a long time now to find any sort of level of consistency. And when he's off, god he can be septic. His performance in the EL final last year was truly horrific and were it not for Moreno it would have been talked about more.

He has many good things going for him but he really needs to start playing more consistently.

murpho999

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O46A3IRXjLY

This lad's opinion of FSG is the same as mine.

They are not the owners to get us where we want to be.
Squad struggling now as depth is not there as we''re making profits in transfer windows instead of improving the squad.

J Mysterio

FSG saved the club from Hicks and Gillet and a bunch of other vultures. They expanded the stadium tastefully (throwing out that Stanley Park nonsense), and they installed Klopp manager. I'm sure they are backing him 100%.

murpho999

J Mysterio wrote: »

FSG saved the club from Hicks and Gillet and a bunch of other vultures. They expanded the stadium tastefully (throwing out that Stanley Park nonsense), and they installed Klopp manager. I'm sure they are backing him 100%.

Anybody could have saved the club as they got the club very cheaply and it's now worth a lot more.

The stand will pay them back with profits.

Klopp is a good move but they have not invested enough in players and lost out on deals due to low balling.

Having James Milner and Alberto Moreno as left back options speaks volumes.

Great that we're profitable but we're a football club that's supposed to be winning trophies and we have won one league cup during their reign and look likely to win nothing again this season.

Talisman

Daniel Sturridge's Liverpool career has been murdered by numbers in the Daily Mail:

Persistent injuries have undoubtedly hampered the 27-year-old's progress and his lower goals-to-games ratio in recent years can partly be attributed to a greater number of substitute appearances.

However, his minutes-to-goals ratio has also sharply decreased in recent seasons.

From the 2014-15 campaign onwards, Sturridge has averaged a league goal every 160 minutes, compared to 113 minutes during his first season-and-a-half at the club.

Injuries have also taken their toll on Sturridge's once blistering speed, which has steadily declined in each of the last four seasons.

While he averaged a top speed of 32.4km/h in the 2013-14 season, he has only averaged 28.5km/h during the current campaign. He has not reached 33km/h at any point in a Premier League game in the last three seasons.

Meanwhile, another recent criticism of Sturridge is his selfishness when in the final third.

The statistics prove that the striker, now so desperate to prove himself to Klopp, has become increasingly wasteful during his time with the Reds.
This season his shot conversion rate has dropped below 10 per cent for the first time in his Anfield career.

Only 8.33 per cent of his shots result in a goal, compared to 24.71 in the 2013-14 campaign. Overall he has a conversion rate of just 14.91 in the last three campaigns.

He has also provided less assists for his team-mates in recent years.
During his first 18 months, playing alongside the likes of Luis Suarez and Raheem Sterling, Sturridge set up 10 goals in 48 league games.

Comparatively, he has provided only four assists in the league since the start of the 2014-15 season - that's an average of one assist every 15.5 games.

Perhaps the most striking statistic is Liverpool's win percentage with and without Sturridge in the Premier League this season.

Klopp's men win only 53.8 percent of games in which Sturridge plays, compared to 66.7 percent without.

BorneTobyWilde

~Rebel~

murpho999 wrote: »

Anybody could have saved the club as they got the club very cheaply and it's now worth a lot more.

Well, the majority of owners who would have come in would have bought it with loans leveraged on the club itself. Like H&G did. Like the Glazers did. Instead, FSG used their money up front, keeping us debt free as an entity (aside from normal healthy operating debt). They also gave us huge interest free loans.

They've behaved a hell of a lot better than most businesses. And make no mistake, every single buyer out there seeks to gain financial profit. There's no guardian angel investors doing it for the love of the club.

Klopp is a good move but they have not invested enough in players and lost out on deals due to low balling.

Having James Milner and Alberto Moreno as left back options speaks volumes.

Great that we're profitable but we're a football club that's supposed to be winning trophies and we have won one league cup during their reign and look likely to win nothing again this season.

I think you have to look at Klopp for that, not FSG. They've already shown they're happy to invest in players, gving truckloads of money to Kenny, who tipped it into a landfill. This really does seem to be what Klopp wants. I don't agree with it, but there has been absolutely no hint, from anyone, at any point, that he's not being backed by FSG in whatever he wants to do.

Klopp's men win only 53.8 percent of games in which Sturridge plays, compared to 66.7 percent without.


...... being brought on once when behind does a lot to that stat when the PL appearances are low

OwaynOTT

Boom_Bap wrote: »

We are too predictable. Keeper to centre half, centre half to Henderson, Henderson to Lovrne, Lovren to Milner. Back to Henderson. Back to Milner. Try to squeeze through to Couthino. Rinse. Repeat.
All while Sturridge is doing SFA.

Sturridge has had a run of games now and done nothing for us except dive, complain, not run, lack of movement, tame shots.
I championed Origi as the solution before, but he has made zero progress this season.
Sell both and put the money and salary into 1 really good player who is not potential and not someone trying to reclaim form.

Can needs to learn how to pass the ball forward.....actually we need a really good CM and let Can go to Juve or wherever he wants to go.
We could probably upgrade Henderson while we are at it.

I also think that it's time to bring Sahko back into the first team ahead of Lovren.

Hopefully if we sign that German winger it might speed things up. But I can see it going Rembrandt to the Lourve.

Turtyturd

Talisman wrote: »

Daniel Sturridge's Liverpool career has been murdered by numbers in the Daily Mail:

Good read, although you'll probably still get some trying to deflect the blame elsewhere . Might be a bit harsh comparing everything to the 13/14 season as it was the peak of his career and something he was never going to sustain long term. Being fit has probably done more harm to his career than injuries, at least with the constant injuries people could carry on under the illusion he would come back as the same player, now that Klopp and his staff have managed him successfully it's obvious how much he's declined.

Turtyturd

OwaynOTT wrote: »

Hopefully if we sign that German winger it might speed things up. But I can see it going Rembrandt to the Lourve.

Seriously, let it Van Gough.

Turtyturd

Turtyturd wrote: »

..............now that Klopp and his staff have managed him successfully it's obvious how much he's declined.

We'll have to see how he gets on elsewhere before having any idea how successful Klopp's management of Daniel has been

IMO Klopp will quite likely be the only manager to have failed to get Daniel scoring.

54and56

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Where in defense do you think he would fit in? Too short for CB

Can is 1.84m. Franco Baresi and Fabio Canavaro who are both 1.76m say hello!!!

murpho999

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Well, the majority of owners who would have come in would have bought it with loans leveraged on the club itself. Like H&G did. Like the Glazers did. Instead, FSG used their money up front, keeping us debt free as an entity (aside from normal healthy operating debt). They also gave us huge interest free loans.

They've behaved a hell of a lot better than most businesses. And make no mistake, every single buyer out there seeks to gain financial profit. There's no guardian angel investors doing it for the love of the club.

A lot of supporters seems to believe that FSG have been heroic knights in shining armour rescuing the club by buying it and then afterwards paying off its debts. The truth is that they the price they paid included the debt pay off and it was a very shrewd business decision as the value of the club has increased massively wit he new TV deals.

I think you have to look at Klopp for that, not FSG. They've already shown they're happy to invest in players, gving truckloads of money to Kenny, who tipped it into a landfill. This really does seem to be what Klopp wants. I don't agree with it, but there has been absolutely no hint, from anyone, at any point, that he's not being backed by FSG in whatever he wants to do.

I don't agree with this, they have a net spend of around £160m in 6 years which is not that much and the last few season has been mostly funded by sales despite there being much more TV money available.

They said when they took over that they are here to win and that wages is no object and I think they have failed in that regard.

Klopp cannot say in public if they didn't back him but I cannot accept that he would really want Milner and Moreno as his left back options.

NukaCola

murpho999 wrote: »

Klopp cannot say in public if they didn't back him but I cannot accept that he would really want Milner and Moreno as his left back options.

While I dont entirely disagree with your main points, I dont see why Klopp signs an extension on his contract if he wasn't going to be backed financially or otherwise in the transfer market.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

Can is 1.84m. Franco Baresi and Fabio Canavaro who are both 1.76m say hello!!!

And they were career defenders, not converted midfielders thrown back into defense when a manager/supporter is looking to shoehorn a midfielder into some position on the field and decides to fire him into the backline.

And probably the same supporters giving out about Milner having to be shoehorned into leftback now looking to shoehorn Can into the defense and expecting a hugely better result?

Jaysus lads, I'm not carrying this conversation on anymore, it's just pure madness expecting Can to play in defense to a high enough degree to displace any of our career defenders who have proven their ability to play in that position.

duffman13

As an outsider looking in I can't help but think Klopps in game management is hurting you. The pressing style is extremely effective and worked well up to now. I've seen people say Klopp is slow to react when things are going bad but is ts also true when things are going good. If your two goals up against Bournemouth or Watford, give your hard working players a breather after 60 mins or so.

Henderson, Lallana and Milner cover a lot of ground and could do with a bit of a break which would stand them better as the season goes on. Obviously the squad is small and that's limiting Klopp, with a few shrewd investments Liverpool will definitely kick on and these slumps will be less of an issue. Surprised to see a few clowns saying Klopp should go, the club has more energy now than its had in a couple of years.

Realistically with European football to contend with next year, Klopp will need 5 or 6 signings in the summer to be able to rotate effectively.

murpho999

NukaCola wrote: »

While I dont entirely disagree with your main points, I dont see why Klopp signs an extension on his contract if he wasn't going to be backed financially or otherwise in the transfer market.

Well I don't know what goes on behind doors but I don't think it's right with a light squad that we have a net profit in a summer transfer window.

Also, not screaming for transfers this window as January can be hard to get players but next summer there will be investment needed as quality needs to improve for first 11 and support squad.

Francie Barrett

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

And they were career defenders, not converted midfielders thrown back into defense when a manager/supporter is looking to shoehorn a midfielder into some position on the field and decides to fire him into the backline.

And probably the same supporters giving out about Milner having to be shoehorned into leftback now looking to shoehorn Can into the defense and expecting a hugely better result?

Jaysus lads, I'm not carrying this conversation on anymore, it's just pure madness expecting Can to play in defense to a high enough degree to displace any of our career defenders who have proven their ability to play in that position.

It's one thing to move a winger to the full back position (sometimes it works ok), but it's quite another to move a central midfielder into central defence. Almost never works. If Can is not good enough, either rotate him or move him on.

Raisins

murpho999 wrote: »

They said when they took over that they are here to win and that wages is no object and I think they have failed in that regard.

I thought they said that exactly the opposite, wages were too high and older players like carragher were on insane wages. I'd say they'd consider our current wage structure a success.

TitianGerm

Augeo wrote: »

We'll have to see how he gets on elsewhere before having any idea how successful Klopp's management of Daniel has been

IMO Klopp will quite likely be the only manager to have failed to get Daniel scoring.

Also the only manager who managed to keep him fit and never rushed him back.

Turtyturd

murpho999 wrote: »

Well I don't know what goes on behind doors but I don't think it's right with a light squad that we have a net profit in a summer transfer window.

Also, not screaming for transfers this window as January can be hard to get players but next summer there will be investment needed as quality needs to improve for first 11 and support squad.

So exactly what they did last summer?

murpho999

Raisins wrote: »

I thought they said that exactly the opposite, wages were too high and older players like carragher were on insane wages. I'd say they'd consider our current wage structure a success.

They rightly thought that some players were on high contracts at the time and offered no value. Joe Cole being an example.

Werner did say in 2011/12

I don't want to get the wage bill down, I want it to increase and we have the resources to do that.

Link

Do you think they have delivered on that?

murpho999

Turtyturd wrote: »

So exactly what they did last summer?

My point is that I don't think they did enough last summer or other times.

Take Dele Ali for example could and should have been signed by Liverpool but they wouldn't pay his wages.

Do you think that is good leadership?

Umaro

This image is doing the rounds, concerning Daniel Sturridge's loss of pace over the past 4 years:



Just by way of comparison, here are a bunch of other players top speeds: