Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours 2016/2017

SlickRic

We win that game if we have a semi-competent under 15s goalkeeper.

End of.

How many points has the lad cost us now? Fúcking pathetic. Quit wasting time arguing with Neville and do your fúcking job properly.

SlickRic

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Had enough ball to win 2 games today, but looked leggy alright and no cutting edge. When we got ahead in last 2 games, we didn't have the killer instinct and let opposition back into a game we should be killing off.

This is a copout for the keeper IMO. We scored 2 goals today. You shouldn't have to score upwards of 3 goals to win games. The attack did their job.

If the keeper wasn't shít for the first and/or a coward for the second, we win. I know Matip made a huge error, but Karius could still have made it to the ball, or at least made it difficult.

mav79

https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/808074008298192898


https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/808073830187102210

Grobbelaar looking for a coaching role!!!

Agent Coulson

mav79 wrote: »

https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/808074008298192898


https://twitter.com/AnfieldHQ/status/808073830187102210

Grobbelaar looking for a coaching role!!!

He does know it wasn't Mignolet in goal today doesn't he?

mav79

Agent Coulson wrote: »

He does know it wasn't Mignolet in goal today doesn't he?

Just saw they are old quotes

dogbert27

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Throw up the names of a couple of keepers that have improved under his watch? Not even a couple...one will do.

We're not allowed criticize the goal keeping coach who has been here over Reina's decline, Mignolet, Jones, Bogden and now Karius. It's not his fault, it's the players are just crap and don't seem to be able to learn.

Now what's that saying about a poor workman blaming his tools?!!

Osmosis Jones

Every goalkeeper we've signed has regressed under his coaching. It's far too early to tell with Karius but it's not like he's just making mistakes, he's not even doing the basic things like making saves.

Have we been on motd yet?

Harry Palmr

John Achterburg is the common thread quite why no one at Liverpool has noticed is just hard to fathom - when Reina had Jose Ochotorena and even Xavi Valero (2007-2010) he was much better than anything since

Kerrigooney

Kerrigooney wrote: »

Throw up the names of a couple of keepers that have improved under his watch? Not even a couple...one will do.

So that means he's responsible for Karius seemingly being fairly sh1t after a few months here?

You'd want to be fairly thick to try and make him any way accountable for the efforts Karius is putting in.

Mignolet we know isn't good enough but after years of working with Achterberg he's better than Karius is currently.

Also, last time I looked Klopp was the manager, if Achterberg is as bad as the experts on here make him out to be how come Klopp hasn't brought in one of his buddies ?

If Karius turns out to be as good as De Gea (lol) I'm pretty fncking sure no one will be crediting Achterberg on here anyway.

Pyjamarama

Augeo wrote: »

So that means he's responsible for Karius seemingly being fairly sh1t after a few months here?

You'd want to be fairly thick to try and make him any way accountable for the efforts Karius is putting in.

Mignolet we know isn't good enough but after years of working with Achterberg he's better than Karius is currently.

Also, last time I looked Klopp was the manager, if Achterberg is as bad as the experts on here make him out to be how come Klopp hasn't brought in one of his buddies ?

If Karius turns out to be as good as De Gea (lol) I'm pretty fncking sure no one will be crediting Achterberg on here anyway.

Or you'd look at Karius at Mainz where he was considered a top 3 keeper in the bundesliga and wonder why he's not performing to that level for us.

Of course the answer most likely is that he's yet to settle. Like it took Firmino time, and DDG, Pires and countless others. Its hard to come to a new country, pick up an injury in preseason and then come in and be amazing. Thankfully i expect the manager to have patience.

MD1990

dogbert27 wrote: »

We're not allowed criticize the goal keeping coach who has been here over Reina's decline, Mignolet, Jones, Bogden and now Karius. It's not his fault, it's the players are just crap and don't seem to be able to learn.

Now what's that saying about a poor workman blaming his tools?!!

Bogdan was terrible at Bolton lol. Very strange signing.

MD1990

Karius has been poor no doubt.

But Carragher & now Phil Neville complaining about Karius commenting about Gary Neville is a bit hypocritical really.

All Karius said was “He was a top player, then he was a manager for a short bit and now he is back to being an expert again,”

Neville loves criticizes non-English players so when a player takes a little dig back he has to take it.

Sturridge is lucky he was injured for the last two games, could see him being made 100% responsible for the 5 dropped pts by the lads on here.......... as well as being deemed responsible for Firmino being off form, because as we all know Bobby doesn't play well when Danny's about :pac:

MD1990

Augeo wrote: »

Sturridge is lucky he was injured for the last two games, could see him being made 100% responsible for the 5 dropped pts by the lads on here.......... as well as being deemed responsible for Firmino being off form, because as we all know Bobby doesn't play well when Danny's about :pac:

Not everyone is obsessed about Sturridge as you seem to be tbh.
I'm more bothered about losing points than predicting how Sturridge would have been made responsible for dropping points.
Weird Post.

MD1990

MD1990 wrote: »

Not everyone is obsessed about Sturridge as you seem to be tbh. .......

Oh there's at least two far more obsessed about Danny than I am
(there was an element of tongue in cheek about my post too, apologies if it was too subtle for you)
Us dropping pts was inevitable, our ppg for the first 13 games was an overachievement, I'm as surprised as anyone how we've dropped 5 in the last two games after being ahead in both games but it was going to happen some time soon IMO.

Osmosis Jones

Augeo wrote: »

Sturridge is lucky he was injured for the last two games, could see him being made 100% responsible for the 5 dropped pts by the lads on here.......... as well as being deemed responsible for Firmino being off form, because as we all know Bobby doesn't play well when Danny's about :pac:

Christ :rolleyes:

"No one's said anything mean about Sturridge lately, so I'll say something myself so I have someone to argue with."

Ah chappies....... things'll get better.
3 pts against Boro all going well and ye shall cheer up a tad :pac:

BorneTobyWilde

I dunno why Lallana isn't a straight swap for Coutinho, get Origi back on bench as a sub.
Get Firmino back through the middle.

Lallana is at his best not in the front 3.

Origi could play out wide to allow Firmino prosper in the middle

NukaCola

Pyjamarama wrote: »

Or you'd look at Karius at Mainz where he was considered a top 3 keeper in the bundesliga and wonder why he's not performing to that level for us.

Of course the answer most likely is that he's yet to settle. Like it took Firmino time, and DDG, Pires and countless others. Its hard to come to a new country, pick up an injury in preseason and then come in and be amazing. Thankfully i expect the manager to have patience.

You could see Firmino working hard, things weren't coming off for him but you could see there was talent there.

Theres taken time to settle and not being able to hold the ball. Does the ball fly at you differently in Germany? People are complaining about the basics here.

I'm not talking about heroics, I have seen nothing that suggest he should start for us. Has he showed us anything to be encouraged by here? Has he even made a good save yet? And before you say its only 10 games, I understand that. But we should not be put in a position of developing an underperforming player that is costing us points.

I posted this after 9 games.

Karius averaged 1.4 saves a game over those nine games and conceded 10 goals.

Southampton didn't get a shot on target.
Hulls only shot on target was a goal.
Swansea scored despite only having 3 shots on target.
United had 1 shot on target.
West Brom scored from their only shot on target.
Sunderland had 1 shot on target.

Some games he didn't even need to make a save.

Bottom line should be does he improve us? A clear no is the answer. Will he improve? Probably. Does he need time? Absolutely. He was apparently good at Mainz but can we afford to give him the time to regain his form? I'm assuming he is miles off where he was so my answer would be no.

He's going to get more time anyway and honestly a lot can change in a few games but he's blowing his chance with us, another few dreadful performances and more points dropped and he'll lose the fans and he will get dropped.

Grayditch

It would be great to have a goalkeeper who can goalkeep. I know it's hard to get a great one, but I feel we'd have 5 more points if we had played an average keeper.

Do they use different shaped balls in Germany or something? What the **** like.

~Rebel~

Karius clearly isn't good enough yet.
But Matip is the reason we lost today though.

And we really need to ****ing sort out our formation at the back. The worry I had about high press earlier in the season is that its too easy to just have a quick guy ready to run the channels, and simply funt the ball down to him when under pressure. That's where the second came from. I'd blame Klopp and Matip long before i'd blame Karius on that goal. There was zero redundancy on our positioning, so it just took one mistake, and Matip made it.

As for this Achterburg stuff...it's second hand complaining. It's pointless. Noone has a single thing to back it up other than their own contrived arguments. It's total 2+2=5 stuff. If you trust Klopp, you trust Achterburg. If you've a problem with Achterburg being the goalkeeping coach, then vent your anger at Klopp.

Or consider that maybe things aren't as simple in the real world as they are in a nice linear little faux-narrative.

Osmosis Jones

~Rebel~ wrote: »

But Matip is the reason we lost today though.

Matip was caught out by a deflected long ball, it's a mistake but to put the whole loss on him is insane.

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Or consider that maybe things aren't as simple in the real world as they are in a nice linear little faux-narrative.

strange to say that after creating your own nice little linear narrative on Matip being the sole reason for our loss.

~Rebel~

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

Matip was caught out by a deflected long ball, it's a mistake but to put the whole loss on him is insane.


strange to say that after creating your own nice little linear narrative on Matip being the sole reason for our loss.

The Matip thing is a reaction to the jumping on board the karius-bashing bandwagon. Disrupting the conversation, if you will.

My real thought I guess is what I wrote just after. Our whole defence was a shambles for it. If one deflected ball can beat your whole team, the problem is more than just one player.

I genuinely wouldn't blame Karius much today...if he wasn't on the tip of everyones consciousness, im not sure how much we'd be hearing about him. Great free that he was lucky to even get a touch to given that it was 'wall-side' (though the wall could have done better I think). And for the second...if you were to reverse it, you'd be ****in' raging if your striker missed that chance.

Grayditch

Karius bashing bandwagon is great. He's bad at keeping. He's going to get called on it by people with eyes.

Utopia Parkway

Matip didn't even make a mistake. It was a ball that took a deflection off Hendo and Matip couldn't readjust his body in time to intercept it. Can't do anything about that.

On the other hand you could make a strong case that Karius should have saved 3 of the last 5 goals we've conceded.

mormank

Augeo wrote: »

I'd go 4 4 2 against M'boro, give firmino a rest on bench for 60 mins.

Mane, origi & wij' with lallana, Hendo & Can should he fine against Boro. Presuming can is fit to play of course.

Karius is a big worry now IMO, didn't see much positive today from him. I'm not anticipating a De Gea type keeper to result from his development.

Could we all just unanimously decide now to stop using De Gea as the go to "excellent keeper" we would love to have? I know he is an excellent keeper but lets just all as a thread get over him now shall we? He will never play for us obviously either so there's not even the hope. Cech is still a fantastic keeper and I reckon if we had him this season we would waltz to the first ever sextuple! Plus whenever I hear the name De Gea I think of that lot and the horrible dreary anti football they play now under that man whom I despise, kinda darkens my day a little bit, however when I hear the name Cech I think of that lot and the wonderful football they have always tried to and succeeded to play under Wenger. A man who despite his many flaws I really like and this brightens my day a little bit. Now who's with me?

mormank

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Not getting the hate today for karius tbh. Good free that was nearly saved from payet and the second was a huge mistake from matip, who it seems reading here is immune to critism. I'm not saying he's great, but he wasn't the losing of the game today.
Had enough ball to win 2 games today, but looked leggy alright and no cutting edge. When we got ahead in last 2 games, we didn't have the killer instinct and let opposition back into a game we should be killing off. Needed a flukey goal to equalise and in truth didn't look like getting the winner.

It wasn't exactly one of Payet's better ones. Karius' starting position was horrendous. :mad:

mormank

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

I dunno why Lallana isn't a straight swap for Coutinho, get Origi back on bench as a sub.
Get Firmino back through the middle.

Eh, why exactly is Origi being made the scapegoat here? Hasn't the lad scored 4 in his last 4? Granted it's a small sample size but 90% of the PL would kill to have a striker with those numbers.

Vicxas

Why are people throwing Origi under the bus now?

noodler

Just yesterday now, butbi thought Oirigi was really poor.

Extremely weak on and off the ball and not showing the kind of endeavour I'd like.

More than that though, I think the whole team is better when Firminho plays up top.

8-10

Osmosis Jones wrote: »

~Rebel~ wrote: »

But Matip is the reason we lost today though.

Matip was caught out by a deflected long ball, it's a mistake but to put the whole loss on him is insane

strange to say that after creating your own nice little linear narrative on Matip being the sole reason for our loss.

We lost?

fyfe79

mormank wrote: »

Could we all just unanimously decide now to stop using De Gea as the go to "excellent keeper" we would love to have? I know he is an excellent keeper but lets just all as a thread get over him now shall we?

I know what you're saying but you can understand the comparison - young foreign keeper joining a big Premiership club and making plenty of mistakes in his first year. The hope is he's on a similar development path to DDG. Personally, I don't think he looks up to it.

Turtyturd

8-10 wrote: »

We lost?

Threads gone a bit weird alright...claiming a loss yesterday, the Sturridge fanboy starting arguments with himself about Sturridge being responsible.

kfallon

fyfe79 wrote: »

I know what you're saying but you can understand the comparison - young foreign keeper joining a big Premiership club and making plenty of mistakes in his first year. The hope is he's on a similar development path to DDG. Personally, I don't think he looks up to it.

Prob be better comparison if we used Taibi rather than De Gea tbh......

Turtyturd

Turtyturd wrote: »

Threads gone a bit weird alright...claiming a loss yesterday, the Sturridge fanboy starting arguments with himself about Sturridge being responsible.

Comprehension not your strong point turdy

mormank

mormank wrote: »

Could we all just unanimously decide now to stop using De Gea as the go to "excellent keeper" we would love to have?..............

I'm firmly not in the "Karius might turn out ok because De Gea did" camp.
I only mentioned De Gea as a pre empt to the sort of rubbish I've bolded

Vicxas

Augeo wrote: »

I'm firmly not in the "Karius might turn out ok because De Gea did" camp.
I only mentioned De Gea as a pre empt to the sort of rubbish I've bolded

While i dont think Karius is a bad keeper, i think throwing him in at the deep end was a bad idea.

The PL is one of the toughest leagues in the world and having him start out in the league seems to have thrown him.

I think a swap back to the cups will do him good.

OwaynOTT

The thing about Karius is, he's always trying to Mignolet the ball out.

Vicxas

Vicxas wrote: »

While i dont think Karius is a bad keeper, i think throwing him in at the deep end was a bad idea..............

Quite likely.
He mightn't be 100% after the injury yet, or he mightn't have been when he was introduced.

Fingers crossed he'll improve over the coming games, relatively busy time coming up so it'll be tough for him. If he gets through it showing an improvement it should stand to him greatly.

Sappy404

I'm no fan of Karius - I never believed he'd be any better than Mignolet - but it seems a bit too easy to blame him for everything that's gone wrong the last few weeks. Let's not forget Dejan Lovren has been in his 2014-15 form in that time, and Matip has been injured and was poor yesterday. And as good as the Matip and Klavan signings have looked, we haven't exactly been breaking clean sheet records. Karius conceded yesterday from a one-on-one after a deflected long-ball and an inch-perfect Payet free kick from the most dangerous possible position. The wall was dreadful for it too, with the ball flying through it at head height and going in on their side of the goal. Sky immediately blamed the keeper though, with the commentator (Robbie Earle) saying he had 2 good hands on the ball and failed to keep it out, which is rubbish.

He could have done better against Bournemouth for 2 of the goals but there was a complete capitulation on the part of the whole team. It's not Karius' fault Bournemouth managed 12 shots and got 8 on target, and it wasn't fair for him to be singled out. That narrative has continued this week after 2 more avoidable goals were conceded. It's a lot easier for Sky to hang them on him than address the fact that the entire team is poor defensively, or articulate the nuances of playing a midfield geared towards attack that's missing two word class attackers and fielding a third one out wide to accomodate Origi through the middle.

Also, this 'shut up and do your job' comment from Carragher was totally unnecessary. Karius was more than entitled to have a pop an his critics, and to point out their failings when they point out his. And does it not rub anyone else the wrong way to hear a dyed in the wool Liverpool man like Carragher so staunchly take Neville's side over Karius'?

Pepp1989

Sappy404 wrote:

I'm no fan of Karius - I never believed he'd be any better than Mignolet - but it seems a bit too easy to blame him for everything that's gone wrong the last few weeks. Let's not forget Dejan Lovren has been in his 2014-15 form in that time, and Matip has been injured and was poor yesterday. And as good as the Matip and Klavan signings have looked, we haven't exactly been breaking clean sheet records. Karius conceded yesterday from a one-on-one after a deflected long-ball and an inch-perfect Payet free kick from the most dangerous possible position. The wall was dreadful for it too, with the ball flying through it at head height and going in on their side of the goal. Sky immediately blamed the keeper though, with the commentator (Robbie Earle) saying he had 2 good hands on the ball and failed to keep it out, which is rubbish.

No where near an inch perfect free kick for me. Left of centre.

MD1990

Lovren is not good enough as a starter for a top 4 team. Antonio got in behind way too easily in the 1st half yesterday which was a terrible error that he is prone to making.
Would like to see Klavan giving a run he has been impressive when he has played & could be a good partner for Matip.

ricero

I see Bruce Grobbelaar has blamed Liverpool's goalkeeper coach John Achterberg for the goalkeeping problems at the club

rob316

I really wish Klopp and Sakho could sort things out, frustrating that we are going to sell a player far superior to Lovren and Klavan. Matip and Sakho could have been an excellent pairing IMO.

BullBlackNova

Sappy404 wrote: »

Also, this 'shut up and do your job' comment from Carragher was totally unnecessary. Karius was more than entitled to have a pop an his critics, and to point out their failings when they point out his. And does it not rub anyone else the wrong way to hear a dyed in the wool Liverpool man like Carragher so staunchly take Neville's side over Karius'?

I don't see what good Karius calling out Neville (or anyone else) does, though. It just puts even more focus on him. And, as others have said, it'd be a hell of a sight easier to say "Yeah, you tell him Karius!" if he didn't drop another bollock days later...

---

Anyway, few points I wanted to make...

- Origi's 4 goals in 4 games is masking the fact that he was actually quite poor yesterday for me. Wasteful passing, struggling to beat players - let's not forget just how poor West Ham have been so far this season. I'm a fan of Origi and happy to see him in the first team, but if we're being critical of players then let's be fair about it!

- Firmino is playing badly and it's down to the fact that he's been shunted out for Origi. Firmino isn't effective out wide - Rodgers played him there and he was bad and his best form for us has been through the centre, without question. Losing Coutinho was bad enough but limiting Firmino's effect on a game by playing him out of position is costing us too I think. We had enough possession, etc in the right areas yesterday that we could have created more chances with the right players in the right positions.
Tbh, I'd like to see Origi played on the left and Firmino through the centre. It makes me worry for the AFCON too - is Firmino gonna be moved to fill the Mané void? I hope not.

- Saying that, our defence HAS to start playing its part. The goals have been dissected 1000 times on here already so I won't go into it, but we shouldn't need to score 3, 4+ each game to get the points. It isn't realistic.
Individual errors have been costing us but there are some organisational issues back there too. Firmly believe that this is a matter for the coaching department and it is of critical importance - especially when we're playing sides who will defend deep against us.

- 'Boro are good side. Draws against Arsenal, City and a close fought game against Chelsea are proof of this. It is exactly the type of game we have struggled in this season - we can't afford to drop more points. A bad result or two quickly becomes a slump and with the games coming quick and fast in the next few weeks, we need to nail some points to the board. If we can beat 'Boro and Everton then we'll at least be in a decent position ahead of our post-Xmas run (Stoke, Man City, Sunderland in about 6 days...)

- Our bench made for terrible reading yesterday. Sure, we're missing players (Can, Coutinho, Sturridge, Ings) but we had, what, 3 teenagers? And not even teenagers who've spent much time in and around the first team. That's not good enough - when things start to go wrong, or when we have a busy run of games, we have no f*cking options.
I'm not a fan of the January window but we need to act fast to bring in a few options. Take Mané out of the equation and it's bare bones stuff.

- On the point of the squad... Where is Kevin Stewart? He's no game-changer but I always thought he played well for us, calm and collected on the ball. I was hoping he might be a rotation option for the coming weeks in the centre of the pitch but if he's not making the bench then is there much hope?

5starpool

Karius should definitely have saved that free kick yesterday, anyone who says otherwise is in denial in my view.

rob316

We are scoring goals but our chance creation has dropped dramatically. Klopp needs to change the formation for when we are missing coutinho, because shunting Firmino out wide to accommodate Origi, isn't working.

Ideally we need another winger, who can cover Coutinho and Mane. Painful watching Firmino been wasted out wide in the last 2 games.

The fluidity just isn't their without Phil.

Regarding comparisons of Karius with De Gea (which I don't see btw) , IIRC De gea was dropped before he became number 1, so the same needs to happen here.

Sappy404

Sappy404 wrote: »

............... And does it not rub anyone else the wrong way to hear a dyed in the wool Liverpool man like Carragher so staunchly take Neville's side over Karius'?

Not really, Carragher is a straight talker and more often than not is spot on with his views.

MD1990 wrote: »

Lovren is not good enough as a starter for a top 4 team. Antonio got in behind way too easily in the 1st half yesterday which was a terrible error that he is prone to making.
Would like to see Klavan giving a run he has been impressive when he has played & could be a good partner for Matip.

I'd agree Lovren isn't good enough, he needs to be baby sat effectively which is a problem if the babysitter is not there or having an off day.

Klavan mustn't be impressing if Lucas got in ahead of him against Bournemouth.

rob316 wrote: »

I really wish Klopp and Sakho could sort things out, frustrating that we are going to sell a player far superior to Lovren and Klavan. Matip and Sakho could have been an excellent pairing IMO.

Sakho has had a colourful career from a disciplinary perspective if you read between the lines. I can see why Klopp wants him out from what we can gather but it'd be good to see Klopp turn things around too. Especially considering as you mention there is a need Sakho (a behaving, tuned in Sakho, not a disruptive one)

BullBlackNova wrote: »

........... limiting Firmino's effect on a game by playing him out of position is costing us too I think............

Coutinho in a front 3 is being played out of position, Milner is being played out of position, Clyne is more a full back than a wing back, Henderson isn't a holding midfielder.

Klopp has mentioned he sees the starting position as only that, Milner is a left back but spends most of the game advanced. Firmino and Origi should be well able to develop an understanding leading to fluid interchanging.

Firmino's form has dropped no doubt, I'm not convinced the reason is mainly positional.