Is it OK to leave a big dog outdoors in this weather?

JustAThought

OP I would either knock or leave a note in your neighbours door saying that their dog is whining & seems distressed left alone in the garden all day. Does it get taken out and walked during the day? If not, it might be an idea to suggest that there are a few peoole who do dogwalking & it might help the dogs boredom/agitation if it was walked & tired out during the day. Poor yoke

As regards the DSPCA if the dog has food, shelter & water & isn't suffering obvious cruelty they won't come out, and calling the dogwarden will only check if it has a license; so your best bet is the owners. It sounds like they (now) have to go to work and leave it ( perhaps simething changed) or ( more likely) the dog is no longer the novelty and is discarded into the garden all day ( and night???) Poor puppy. They need human /dog contact and a purpose.

AndrewJRenko

OP here - the dog in question is in the garden, staring in the window and pawing occasionally on the grass. The family have gone to school/work without any interaction, and I'm pretty sure without any feeding/watering. It's breaking my heart now.

Chuchote

Dogs are intensely social animals. It sounds as if these people loved it when they had a cute puppy, failed to integrate their dog into their household and now regard it as some kind of machine without feelings or needs apart from food, water and shelter - though this may be too harsh, since you're only seeing it from outside.
Maybe knock on their door and offer to take the dog for a walk every day, explain that it seems lonely and bored outside? They might even sometimes like to walk with you.
If you succeed in training the dog a bit - simple things like "fetch" and "find" - they might find it more interesting and gradually grow attached to their pet?
I might mention that when my dog was young I used to leave her in the garden when I was out at work; she had a good kennel, food and water. My neighbours called in and said she was crying, and so I started leaving her in the house when I was out. She was perfectly happy there, and stopped crying - she obviously felt more secure inside. Dogs' mileage varies.

JustAThought

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

OP here - the dog in question is in the garden, staring in the window and pawing occasionally on the grass. The family have gone to school/work without any interaction, and I'm pretty sure without any feeding/watering. It's breaking my heart now.

How awful. Knock on their door when they get in & fed tonight. Exaggerate the dogs misery a bit & emphasise that it is because it is bored/isolated. If they are setting a pattern for excluding & ignoring the dogs needs for the rest of its life then it would be better rehomed

I do not understand how people can get a pet and discard it without company or walks into a (small) semi-d back garden for the rest of its life (8-14 years) and expect neighbours to put up with its misery or noise . The dog can't speak english & the neighbours maybe don't realise or don't care - it shouldn't be let continue for the rest of the dogs life and you cannot be expected to take on their responsibilities or sit passively by and hear it suffering.

Plenty of dogminders & (sime) dog day-cares out there - medieval cruelty is not good enough. It's the Same for children in romanian orphanages living their lives fed & in a bed, banging their heads against cots for lack of love and stimulation. They should understand that analogy -and the disgrace of it.

Chuchote

Check whether the dog has water, and if it doesn't, maybe lower a plastic bucket full of water over the wall for it. You can pull it back up and out before the neighbours get back.

pilly

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

Dogs are outdoor anaimals, they aren't humans and certainly aren't babies. Once he has shelter he will be fine, having dogs living in the house is a new thing that's emerged (in cities) over in the last 20 years or so.

Growing up in the country side where people deal with all sorts of animals everyday having a dog or cat inside the back door of the house was and for most still is unheard off.

Even kittens or puppies wouldn't be let in the house at home never mind grown dogs and they always lived happy and long lives.

Edit: just to add I wouldn't move a dog that's been used to inside outside but a dog should never be gotten used to inside in the first place.

Whilst I immediately thought the same thing as I know many farm dogs very happy living outside when I think about if further it's different being outside on a farm to outside in a small back garden in suburbia if you know what I mean, the boredom for the dog must be huge. Also, farm dogs do tend to have company in form of another dog, cat or other animals. Dogs are sociable creatures and like any form of company.

Most days I come home the dog and cat are in the same room even though they ignore each other totally.

Jayop

Bambi wrote: »

I think he's implying that animal cruelty is fine when its part of culchie culture.

Ye know chucking sacks of pups in rivers etc, poisoning birds of prey etc, all part of a proud heritage

It's no wonder this forum features so highly in the no go areas thread with stuff like this. Shocking assumption to make and its the second time you've done it in this thread. Don't agree one hundred percent with me you must be an advocate for drowning puppies. Horrible posts.

Dyr

Jayop wrote: »

It's no wonder this forum features so highly in the no go areas thread with stuff like this. Shocking assumption to make and its the second time you've done it in this thread. Don't agree one hundred percent with me you must be an advocate for drowning puppies. Horrible posts.

Country folk problems.

Big country/townie divide.

Jayop

Bambi wrote: »

Country folk problems.

Big country/townie divide.

And what, do you believe that all country people think it's OK to drown puppies because that's the assertion you've made several times based on nothing but your imagination.

It seems that you don't like people to disagree with you and when they do you attack with crap like that. Guess it got you a few likes so good for you.

pilly

Jayop wrote: »

It's no wonder this forum features so highly in the no go areas thread with stuff like this. Shocking assumption to make and its the second time you've done it in this thread. Don't agree one hundred percent with me you must be an advocate for drowning puppies. Horrible posts.

Totally agree, assumptions made by people who haven't been raised around working animals.

Dyr

Jayop wrote: »

And what, do you believe that all country people think it's OK to drown puppies because that's the assertion you've made several times based on nothing but your imagination.

It seems that you don't like people to disagree with you and when they do you attack with crap like that. Guess it got you a few likes so good for you.

If someone wants to introduce the old chestnut that people who don't live down the sticks are molly coddlying their animals I'm just going to point out that the other side of that coin. Don't find many puppy farms in the city do ye lads?

Jayop

Bambi wrote: »

If someone wants to introduce the old chestnut that people who don't live down the sticks are molly coddlying their animals I'm just going to point out that the other side of that coin. Don't find many puppy farms in the city do ye lads?

Another post disagreeing with you and this time it's puppy farming we're all supporting. Brilliant, you're on a roll here. Why not go dog fighting with your next one and finish off with Fox hunting. Sure we all love that down the sticks.

Like I said it's no wonder this forum has such a bad reputation on boards with the likes of you.

The Backwards Man

You'll never hear a dog crying or whining on the coldest iciest day of the year if you are outside along with it, but you will if it's locked in a warm house with a blazing fire all on its lonesome.

DBB

Okay folks,
Let's get this thread back on track. Discussion relating to the op from this point on please.
That is to say, to discuss the alleged urban?rural divide, start a new thread.
Do not reply to this post on thread.
Thanks.
DBB

FrostyJack

Vizzy wrote: »

And what do they do to occupy themselves ?
Crossword puzzles ? Movies ?

Do you hold the view that a hunting dog or a sheepdog should be kept in the house ?

They generally don't occupy themselves. A cheese filled kong is the best I can do for them. The most I ever leave them is about 3 hours and the average a week is 1 hour. If I am going shopping they stay in back of jeep. When I am in work they are in daycare. I live in an apartment so I don't have the luxury of dumping them out the back but I would generally keep to the timelines above as I have for over a year.

Working dogs (not working breeds) should be kept with family too. If they have adequate shelter etc and are working with the owner during the day then I would have no problem with them staying outside. The preference would be inside though.

DBB

The Backwards Man wrote: »

You'll never hear a dog crying or whining on the coldest iciest day of the year if you are outside along with it, but you will if it's locked in a warm house with a blazing fire all on its lonesome.

You'll often hear a dog locked outside with a warm kennel all on its lonesome crying or whining.
Leaving a dog alone in solitude for long periods of time will tend to cause distress to the dog.
It makes no difference whether the dog is inside or outside. Temperature bears no relation to the onset of distress caused by isolation.

borderlinemeath

One of my dogs was given to me because he was becoming "behaviourally challenging" from being isolated in the garden. And by that his owners were annoyed that he had begun to dig and chew, typical dog behaviours exhibiting frustration at being isolated away from his family. Nor did they understand why he didn't run around the garden, after all, they lived in the country and had an acre of garden but he used to stare pitifully in the back door. He did get walked/run every day but one hour out of 24 isn't enough for a sociable companion animal, a fact that tends to be lost on plenty of people who think that dogs belong outside, on their own.

These people tend to come from all walks of life, city, country etc, but their ideology on dog behaviour tends to stem from what they grew up with, or what their parents did before them, and their parents before that. Somehow, through the generations, it became the norm to leave the pet languishing outside with little interaction. Go back 30 years and it was the norm to have at least one parent in the home, in and out of the garden, hanging up washing, gardening, children playing etc, not so now where both parents have to work and children are in childcare most of the day - but the consequence for the pet dog have meant that their situation hasn't evolved like their owners have.

I just wish a lot of people who do this wouldn't hark back to "what was the done thing at home". Just because your parents did it doesn't make it right. Huge advances have been made in analysing dog behaviours, and in parallel to that, dogs have become a commodity, bred in isolation and sold on a whim on the internet, which in turn makes their behavioural problems that much more acute, but that's for another thread.

unreg999

DBB wrote:

Quite the contradiction that you keep your dogs inside! Why do you keep them in when you feel they should be outdoors? As you feel dogs should be kept outside, could you just address for me the bigger problem of social isolation and consequent behavioural problems for pet dogs kept alone outside, and remember I'm staying on topic here and referring to a dog that is alone for long periods in a back garden? Can you also address why pet dogs (and indeed working hounds as alluded to in my first post) "should" be outside when they have been very deliberately kept inside as human companions for thousands of years? They're animals alright, as are we, but being an animal is not a determinant of having to live outside. Pet dogs are not livestock... They are domesticated companion animals. How can a dog alone in a garden be a companion to anyone... Remembering there's mountains of evidence that they both want and need to be with their humans in order to thrive emotionally. Like I said above, people from other countries are aghast at the Irish attitude that dogs belong outside. It's a very strange view that's not based on any evidence.

There are also plenty of prople from other countries who are aghast that cats should ever be let leave the house... and go to the extreme of removing their claws to stop them from damaging furniture (which is an atrociously torturous practice)
Also, removing dog's voice boxes is common enough in certain places to stop barking...
In fact, dogs are seen as meat animals in certain other countries & kept in the worst conditions imaginable
Need I go on...??
Human practices are no indication of what should or should not be 'best practice', common sense should prevail & there are many humans living in worse conditions than some 'outdoor dogs'...
OP- sounds like your neighbour's dog is lonely rather than cold

Checkmate19

Dogs like humans need company. My dog has a big kennel but we bring him in during the day into the kitchen. Dogs get bored and needed company and walks. The kennel my dog sleeps in is very warm even on a cold night but we let him sleep in the kitchen during the winter months as i think he's just happier inside.

tk123

tk123 wrote: »

My two have no interest in running around the garden. When they need to go to the loo they'll ask to go out and run back in.

You can't let them out when you aren't there. We were looking after a dog for someone recently and as the dog is not used to being outside we couldn't leave her outside all day while at work. This meant she was holding her pee for up to 9 hours until someone got home to let her out.

If for some reason had this dog more long term we would be starting to acclimatise her to spending time outside, get a kennel etc so that she could be outside during the day when people are out of the house. It also eases pressure to get home straight after work as you know you don't have to get straight home to let the dog have a pee etc.

tk123

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

You can't let them out when you aren't there. We were looking after a dog for someone recently and as the dog is not used to being outside we couldn't leave her outside all day while at work. This meant she was holding her pee for up to 9 hours until someone got home to let her out.

If for some reason had this dog more long term we would be starting to acclimatise her to spending time outside, get a kennel etc so that she could be outside during the day when people are out of the house. It also eases pressure to get home straight after work as you know you don't have to get straight home to let the dog have a pee etc.

Yeah my dogs aren't alone all day either so again they're not holding their wee. We wouldn't have dogs in the first place if they were going to be alone all day as it's not fair on them.

borderlinemeath

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

You can't let them out when you aren't there.

Actually you can. If you have to be away all day on a regular basis and were unwilling to invest in a dog walker/daycare you can get a microchip activated dog flap to give a dog access to both indoors and outdoors.

We were looking after a dog for someone recently and as the dog is not used to being outside we couldn't leave her outside all day while at work. This meant she was holding her pee for up to 9 hours until someone got home to let her out.

If for some reason had this dog more long term we would be starting to acclimatise her to spending time outside, get a kennel etc so that she could be outside during the day when people are out of the house. It also eases pressure to get home straight after work as you know you don't have to get straight home to let the dog have a pee etc.

I'd hope you let the owner in on your plans if you were to acclimatise an indoor dog to outdoors.

borderlinemeath

borderlinemeath wrote: »

I'd hope you let the owner in on your plans if you were to acclimatise an indoor dog to outdoors.

I meant if it happened that we took on the dog full time not if just looking after her.

I wouldn't move a dog who is used to living inside to living outside full time as they are too used to it but I would certainly be getting them used to spending time outside during the day as it's much more practical.

As an overall comment I will say that I don't agree with a dog living in isolation in a back garden. It appears that my posts may have been taken up that I agree with it but I certainly don't. But imo a dog doesn't have to live in the house and certainly not have the run of the house in order to live a happy life. It's not a black and white situation which it does sort of appear like in these conversations and I think the very hardline approach of "dogs can't live outside" and it's "awful" etc gets to those who disagree and makes them come across more hardline (in the other direction) than they actually are.

Hellrazer

Both my two are house dogs.They both eat,sleep and live with us as part of the family.Im sitting here at the minute and my Newf has taken over a whole sofa for herself.
My wife wont be happy but Bailey looks so f**king comfortable Im not going to be the one to move her!!!

They both even stay in the house when we are both at work.There is no destructive behaviour or anything else that would give us reason to leave them outside...unless you count the slobber that's on everything but thats a different thread in itself!

borderlinemeath

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

I meant if it happened that we took on the dog full time not if just looking after her.

I wouldn't move a dog who is used to living inside to living outside full time as they are too used to it but I would certainly be getting them used to spending time outside during the day as it's much more practical.

As an overall comment I will say that I don't agree with a dog living in isolation in a back garden. It appears that my posts may have been taken up that I agree with it but I certainly don't. But imo a dog doesn't have to live in the house and certainly not have the run of the house in order to live a happy life. It's not a black and white situation which it does sort of appear like in these conversations and I think the very hardline approach of "dogs can't live outside" and it's "awful" etc gets to those who disagree and makes them come across more hardline (in the other direction) than they actually are.

But your opinions on animal care hark back to your upbringing, am I correct? I recall on another thread you said your mother wouldn't let an animal past the door. You even said yourself earlier on that puppies and kittens were born outside and never made it inside - have you any idea how detrimental to the pups that can be? Every welfare organisation, every behaviour specialist and every good breeder says that for a confident happy dog, they need to be raised from birth around humans in a home environment to get used to regular household noises and routines. Otherwise they can be nervous and withdrawn and nervousness can transfer to aggression if put into a situation where they feel threatened.

Maybe the opinions of the experts is so adamant that pups and dogs should be raised indoors as part of a family unit because they are the ones who deal with the fallout of dogs with behavioural issues. It's also noteworthy and well documented that puppy farmers raise their pups outside, and in virtual isolation. So it's easy to see why people have such hardline views on raising dogs indoors, and they can view those who take a hardline stance for outside dogs as not that far removed from puppy farmers in the empathy stakes.

AryaStark

My dog (a husky) loves to be outside and would probably love to sleep out at night if I were to sleep out with her! She likes to sit out on the gate pillar at night which is just outside my office and I have to go out and collect her when it is time for bed! She sleeps under my bed as she would find it too hot in the bed.
While she has a huge coat and would probably be fine with the weather she would not do well outside as she just loves company. As most other posters have said this seems to be the main issue. A dog can sleep anywhere they like once they get to spend time with their humans and feel important to the family.
I hate to think of poor dogs kept in the garden all night and nobody saying good morning to it or giving it any attention.

AryaStark

AryaStark wrote: »

.
I hate to think of poor dogs kept in the garden all night and nobody saying good morning to it or giving it any attention.

In fairness there is no difference between going out to say hello to a dog in the garden before going to work and saying hello to a dog in the house before going to work. In fact I'd imagine most indoor dogs would be let out into the garden to pee anyway in the morning and to have a run around so they would see no more of the people before work than an outdoor dog.

The ops case is obviously not nice for the dog but its nothing to do with the fact he is indoor or outdoor.

tk123

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

In fairness there is no difference between going out to say hello to a dog in the garden before going to work and saying hello to a dog in the house before going to work. In fact I'd imagine most indoor dogs would be let out into the garden to pee anyway in the morning and to have a run around so they would see no more of the people before work than an outdoor dog.

The ops case is obviously not nice for the dog but its nothing to do with the fact he is indoor or outdoor.

It's 100% down to the fact that the dog in question is outdoors. The dog in the OP is dumped in a back garden all day in suburbia by itself. It doesn't have the opportunity to ask their owner for a pet/cuddle, bring them a toy to play a game, ask for a treat or just be in their company like it wants to be - all of which an indoor pet dog gets to do.

As for the saying hello before work thing everyone I know walks their dogs before work - except the few who dump them out the back all day and then complain when they destroy the place out of boredom. Much easier to say hello to the outdoor dog and feck off to work than ignore the indoor dog who's waiting at the door for their walk in the park.

AryaStark

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

In fairness there is no difference between going out to say hello to a dog in the garden before going to work and saying hello to a dog in the house before going to work. In fact I'd imagine most indoor dogs would be let out into the garden to pee anyway in the morning and to have a run around so they would see no more of the people before work than an outdoor dog.

The ops case is obviously not nice for the dog but its nothing to do with the fact he is indoor or outdoor.

I hate to think that anybody would have a pet and not say good morning to it and spend a little time bonding. That is weather the dog is indoors or outdoors. I don't get why people get dogs to be ignored. I would never leave the house without looking for Nymeria and giving her a little rub ... the same way I would never leave the house without saying goodbye to my Mam and brother if they are home.

AryaStark

AryaStark wrote: »

I hate to think that anybody would have a pet and not say good morning to it and spend a little time bonding. That is weather the dog is indoors or outdoors. I don't get why people get dogs to be ignored. I would never leave the house without looking for Nymeria and giving her a little rub ... the same way I would never leave the house without saying goodbye to my Mam and brother if they are home.

That's the point I was trying to make. Just because someone has an outdoor dog does not mean they don't go out and say hello, give a few rubs and have a bit of a play for a few mins before going to work that or take the dog for a quick walk.

If the people owning the dog aren't giving it attention it doesn't really matter if it's outside or locked into a room in the house while the family get ready and go without saying hello, even worse that way around as the dog wouldn't be let out to the toilet. I doubt the dog in the op would be getting much attention either way and therefore my point that the issue isn't the fact it is an outdoor dog but that he has bad owners is the issue.

Subcomandante Marcos

Kaiden Orange Cowboy wrote: »

Dogs are outdoor anaimals, they aren't humans and certainly aren't babies. Once he has shelter he will be fine, having dogs living in the house is a new thing that's emerged (in cities) over in the last 20 years or so.

Well this is untrue. My father is in his late 60's, my grandfather is near 90 and both of them grew up in a rural area with dogs in the house who slept on a mat in the kitchen. the dogs came and went from the house to the garden and fields as they pleased during the day and went with my grandfather while he was working the land and then came back inside for the night around 8 or 9 while the family was having something to eat. And that was in southern Spain, where the winters are a lot milder than here!

sillysmiles

I grew up on a farm. The dogs had much more access to the house then than they do now as we had no nice furniture so the dogs being mucky from the farm made no difference. Whereas now on the farm the dogs aren't allowed inside as the house is of a much more decorated than when I was growing up and the dogs would make it mucky.
Whereas as my own dog is inside all the time, except when we go for walks or are in the garden or doing stuff outside.

Personally I wouldn't keep a dog outside. The main reason is I have them as a pet and a companion, not a garden ornament. But besides the social interaction they need, I'd be afraid of theft. Also, I live in a rural area. Everyone around us has dogs that are outside all the time. I lay in bed last night listening to the areas dogs barking at....not sure what - probably a fox on a forsty night. While my dog snored on his bed inside. I know which one has the better life.

Checkmate19

I leave my dog out in the warmer months. He has a large kennel very spacious and comfortable with a big basket(pillow) inside. During the colder months he sleeps in the kitchen. I personally don't know if the dog would mind sleeping out in the colder months. Got into the box during the winter myself so see how cold it was and to be honest it was pretty warm. Still he enjoys staying in so we leave him in during the winter months. He's a quite a big dog. I think the main thing dogs need is company. There's no really point in having a dog if your just going to leave it outside and have little interaction with it. Not fair on the dog.

Dirty Dingus McGee

To all those saying the dog must be keep inside you're talking complete baloney.

Dogs are animals and once they have a kennel for shelter they will be fine.

Our springer spaniel regularly used to break out of his kennel and sleep in a nest he made of himself outside.

I absolutely love dogs but the way some dogs owners go on you'd think they were all delicate little flowers and were never used to the outdoors at all or were not given any protection by nature to deal with being outdoors.

Dyr

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

To all those saying the dog must be keep inside you're talking complete baloney.

Dogs are animals and once they have a kennel for shelter they will be fine.

Our springer spaniel regularly used to break out of his kennel and sleep in a nest he made of himself outside.

I absolutely love dogs but the way some dogs owners go on you'd think they were all delicate little flowers and were never used to the outdoors at all or were not given any protection by nature to deal with being outdoors.

Humans are animals, they'll be fine its not like they were never used the outdoors or were not given any protection by nature to deal with being outdoors


Any other fine examples of logic you'd like to parade?

Dirty Dingus McGee

Bambi wrote: »

Humans are animals, they'll be fine its not like they were never used the outdoors or were not given any protection by nature to deal with being outdoors


Any other fine examples of logic you'd like to parade?

Humans lived in caves for a long long time before we softened ourselves up.

Dogs have a hell of a lot more protection to deal with elements than we have now. Most dogs sleep in kennels i.e a house for a dog much like the houses humans have for themselves.

borderlinemeath

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

To all those saying the dog must be keep inside you're talking complete baloney.

Dogs are animals and once they have a kennel for shelter they will be fine.

Our springer spaniel regularly used to break out of his kennel and sleep in a nest he made of himself outside.

I absolutely love dogs but the way some dogs owners go on you'd think they were all delicate little flowers and were never used to the outdoors at all or were not given any protection by nature to deal with being outdoors.

Actually some dogs are more delicate than "little flowers". Dogs like greyhounds and whippets for example have little or no body fat to keep themselves warm, and can have a very thin coat. Boxers and staffies don't fare much better. A lot of toy breeds like yorkies or maltese have hair rather than fur, with little or no heat protection. Gundogs - like your springer - are far hardier than a lot of breeds, so it's easy to give anecdotal tales of how your dog does so well outdoors, particularly if he's worked, and gets his exercise and mental stimulation from fieldwork all day.

I also think indoor dogs sleep more soundly than dogs that sleep outside. They don't have wind, or leaves rustling or vermin or wildlife pottering through their garden to keep them alert. Plus, if anybody ever did try and break in, I'd far rather that the dogs were inside to protect me and vice versa. Years ago my in laws dog was poisoned before their home and business were broken into. Another family members dog was hit with some sort of iron bar/crowbar and his back legs were broken.

vin33

Bambi wrote: »

Humans are animals, they'll be fine its not like they were never used the outdoors or were not given any protection by nature to deal with being outdoors


Any other fine examples of logic you'd like to parade?

So we let our 8 month old puppy into the house at night during the dark nights so that he will have company. But he can't last more than 30min in the house before he's at the door looking to go outside. It's too warm for him inside but he comes in for the company. He has an insulated kernel with 60mm kingspan and sometimes sleeps outside anyway.
It's what you're used to, some non Irish start complaining about the cold in September when I'm wearing a T shirt., but I'll die at 25degrees.

lawred2

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't know much about keeping dogs, so I'm interested in views from others. Our neighbour got what looks like an Andrex puppy dog over the summer. The puppy got lots of fuss and attention at the time, but doesn't seem to be getting too much attention these days. He's quite a big dog now, and has an outside kennel. It seems to be a good size for him, and has some kind of plastic flap door. He whines quite a bit whenever I go out into the garden, but I'm not sure if this is due to the cold or maybe the lack of attention. Is it OK to leave a dog like this in an outdoor kennel in this weather? I don't think I could do it myself, but I don't want to rush to judgement too quick.

Nope. But many dog owners are selfish self indulgent people who care little about proper animal welfare. All that matters is that they get to satisfy their urge to possess a dog.

DBB

And on that note, with a resoundingly inappropriate post to be putting in the Animals and Pets Forum to finish the discussion from Lawred2, I've had my fill of this thread, and I'm pretty sure the OP has their answer.
Thread closed.
Thanks,
DBB