Discussion: The future of STB technology?

Johnboy1951

Maybe a better thread heading would be more suitable .....

The first question is:

Are there available, STBs for FTA Satellite reception, which would have similar inputs to the Sky Q main box ---- two wideband LNB inputs and multiple tuners?

I have read some info about reference designa based on the MxL541C, MaxLinear’s Full-Spectrum Capture™ (FSC™) four-channel, Unicable satellite receiver but I have not seen anything available to consumers.

There is also the MxL532C which "integrates MaxLinear’s leading-edge Full-Spectrum Capture™ satellite tuner technology with three demodulators that are compliant with DVB-S, DVB-S2, DSS and DIRECTV advanced modulation and coding (AMC) specifications."

I also read that some of these are available with 8 tuners.

***

An alternative of course is the SAT>IP LNB which converts the requested channel to an IPTV stream and delivered over Cat 6 cable to the household.
I have seen two different set ups for this .. Selfsat 36 ... a flat panel Satellite 'dish' with everything built in and only needing a Cat 6 cable to the house which has PoE injection.
Also some manufacturers, such as Inverto, produce an LNB with similar attributes to the Selfsat, for use on a standard Satellite dish.

***

It is becoming obvious that 'consumers' want to view live TV on mobile devices, and not just on a fixed TV in a particular room.
Also more tuners than the now standard 1 or 2 for satellite reception is not going to be sufficient.
If in a household of 5 people, all can watch a liveTV channel on any device they can connect to their wifi, then they will - if there are sufficient tuners to allow it.

***

Yet, amongst all this, the only commercial set up I have found is Sky Q which of course is not for FTA use, but for subscription TV.
From what I have read, the Sky Q set up is seriously lacking in user convenience, which I believe is due to Sky wishing to have the functions limited until extra payment is made.

At the present time it is a simple matter to have a FTA TV distribution system similar to Sky Q, but without the limitations Sky impose. Some on Boards have been using such systems long before Sky Q made its appearance.

What is not readily available is something for the average user which offers multiple tuners like the LNB>IP devices, or the Sky Q receiver, which reportedly has 12 tuner capability (I have not seen this figure confirmed in practice).
I had hoped there would be a STB available this year, which would either have suitable inputs and multiple tuners like Sky Q, or else which would marry to the output of the LNB>IP devices which have 8 tuners built in.

I have seen nothing along that line ...... does anyone know of something like this is in development or out there to buy?

Gerry Wicklow

There are some boxes on the market now that can use FBC LNBs. For example the VU+ 4K has 8 available virtual tuners and Gigabit LAN (and WiFi). Whether your router /WiFi could handle all that at once is another matter. Claimed speeds don't often match real world results.
There is also a spare slot to add, for example, a DVB-T2 tuner card

Johnboy1951

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

There are some boxes on the market now that can use FBC LNBs. For example the VU+ 4K has 8 available virtual tuners and Gigabit LAN (and WiFi). Whether your router /WiFi could handle all that at once is another matter. Claimed speeds don't often match real world results.
There is also a spare slot to add, for example, a DVB-T2 tuner card

That certainly would appear to be what I mean, thanks.
http://www.ac-sat-corner.eu/VU-Solo-4K-2x-DVB-S2-FBC-Tuner-1x-Dual-DVB-C-T2-Tuner-PVR-Twin-Linux-Receiver-UHD-2160p

http://linux-tv.com/receiver/vu-solo-4k/

I didn't yet see anything about how to make the 8 tuners available on the LAN, but I guess that is just a matter of searching some more.

ShaneOC

While FBC LNBs certainly give you more choice in what you can record they are not 100% necessary. Standard LNBs connected to receivers give much more flexibility that Sky provide.

E.g. VU+ Duo 2 with dual satellite tuner and dual terrestrial tuner

Every channel on a terrestrial mux can be recorded so with a dual terrestrial tuner you can record all of the Irish channels at the same time (as there are only 2 muxes).

Every channel on a satellite transponder can be recorded simultaneously. So you can record / view BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, CBBC HD (10847 V) using just one tuner. At the same time you could also record / view E4, More 4 and Channel 4 +1 (10729 V).

So with 4 tuners you can record / view 14 things at once. As Gerry W has pointed out the limiting factor here may be how much data your router can handle in getting the 14 streams out to various devices. Or how much data can be written to your disk at a given time.

Gerry Wicklow

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

.....
I didn't yet see anything about how to make the 8 tuners available on the LAN, but I guess that is just a matter of searching some more.

Using webif anything with a web browser can stream live or recordings from an Enigma based box. The most I have tried to date is 4 different channels at once without a problem.

Johnboy1951

ShaneOC wrote: »

While FBC LNBs certainly give you more choice in what you can record they are not 100% necessary. Standard LNBs connected to receivers give much more flexibility that Sky provide.

E.g. VU+ Duo 2 with dual satellite tuner and dual terrestrial tuner

Every channel on a terrestrial mux can be recorded so with a dual terrestrial tuner you can record all of the Irish channels at the same time (as there are only 2 muxes).

Every channel on a satellite transponder can be recorded simultaneously. So you can record / view BBC One HD, BBC Two HD, CBBC HD (10847 V) using just one tuner. At the same time you could also record / view E4, More 4 and Channel 4 +1 (10729 V).

So with 4 tuners you can record / view 14 things at once. As Gerry W has pointed out the limiting factor here may be how much data your router can handle in getting the 14 streams out to various devices. Or how much data can be written to your disk at a given time.

Fair enough, you disagree that there will be any change in the future of STBs except maybe for a couple of more tuners than presently is common.

***

With regard to the LAN and the potential limitations of the router ... HD TV channels take only a fraction of the available bandwidth, and SD channels much less. So using a 100Mb/s switch eight TV channels being viewed simultaneously is easily achieved.
Make that a 1Gb/s router/switch and there is plenty room for a lot more channels to be streamed across the LAN.

IMO the future could lie in LNB>IP on the dish, with an STB without Sat tuners but with all the 'management' software to make viewing and selecting channels, EPG, recording, playback etc etc a smooth experience for multiple users. That would be for those who want a FTA experience similar to Sky Q, except the client devices could be any LAN connected device with media playing capability so eliminating a huge element of the Sky Q limitations.

Johnboy1951

Reading about the VU+ 4K threw up a considerable number of people dissatisfied with this STB, particularly on first release.

There was also mention of competitors products due for release, but I have not as yet seen any in-depth reviews of the competition.

The impression I got was that VU had released early to be first to the market but the product was not yet ready. Updated since then should have attended to the bugs I guess.

More reading to be done

Gerry Wicklow

Compared to say an AA2 it's like comparing a pushbike to a Ferrari. Any issues I've seen have been software related. The factory supplied s/w has fairly limited plugins. As can be expected for a relatively new device, the number of guys patching the s/w is slowly growing. That said there are some excellent, rock solid images out there now.

Johnboy1951

Gerry Wicklow wrote: »

Compared to say an AA2 it's like comparing a pushbike to a Ferrari. Any issues I've seen have been software related. The factory supplied s/w has fairly limited plugins. As can be expected for a relatively new device, the number of guys patching the s/w is slowly growing. That said there are some excellent, rock solid images out there now.

It is surely a pity that the stock software is not 'up to scratch' for every day use.

I can understand and appreciate others developing alternate s/w to incorporate some functions that the manufacturer decided not to include ..... but in this case it seems the original software was not good enough in a lot of aspects, not just the functions it did not support. That of course was on first release and apparently there have been updates which have improved things.

Gerry Wicklow

In fairness I haven't tried the official s/w for a while as it didn't support some 'must have' functions such as dreamexplorer or autovolume. I found an image that suits me with almost daily updates even though it was near perfect from day one. I suppose the early adopters will primarily include the sort who can't stop tinkering
Of course there is also an element of personal preference in choosing an image.

PabloAndRoy

Just a couple cents worth on the SAT>IP route... While the SAT>IP LNB looks promising it is a pretty expensive route at the moment (€400 for a dual tuner option). Telestar DIGIBIT R1 is back in stock in Amazon Germany. Four tuner SAT>IP server for only €115. I am using one of these and find it to be excellent, once I updated the firmware to latest version. Only 100Mbps and no wifi, mind you. Not an issue for me.

link: https://www.amazon.de/Telestar-Digibit-Sat-IP-Netzwerk-Transmitter/dp/B008OVPYCQ/

Johnboy1951

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

Just a couple cents worth on the SAT>IP route... While the SAT>IP LNB looks promising it is a pretty expensive route at the moment (€400 for a dual tuner option).

I don't know where you got such pricing, but I can say that the Inverto Sat>IP LNB is available for up to €400, BUT it is an eight channel device not dual.

The Selfsat 36, also for less than €400 is an 8 channel IPTV device plus it also has two legacy outputs for the usual tuners, if required.

https://www.cyberport.de/?DEEP=C399-11Q&APID=263

Telestar DIGIBIT R1 is back in stock in Amazon Germany. Four tuner SAT>IP server for only €115. I am using one of these and find it to be excellent, once I updated the firmware to latest version. Only 100Mbps and no wifi, mind you. Not an issue for me.

link: https://www.amazon.de/Telestar-Digibit-Sat-IP-Netzwerk-Transmitter/dp/B008OVPYCQ/

Thanks for the info about using this

PabloAndRoy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

I don't know where you got such pricing, but I can say that the Inverto Sat>IP LNB is available for up to €400, BUT it is an eight channel device not dual.

The Selfsat 36, also for less than €400 is an 8 channel IPTV device plus it also has two legacy outputs for the usual tuners, if required.

https://www.cyberport.de/?DEEP=C399-11Q&APID=263

Yes, I did misunderstand that. My apologies. The selfsat does include an octo LNB. I guess if you need an octo, then the price is pretty good at 400. Nice piece of kit indeed. Would work well in a small guest house with a SAT>IP STB (or even raspberry pi or android box) in each room.

Johnboy1951

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

Yes, I did misunderstand that. My apologies. The selfsat does include an octo LNB. I guess if you need an octo, then the price is pretty good at 400. Nice piece of kit indeed. Would work well in a small guest house with a SAT>IP STB (or even raspberry pi or android box) in each room.

Yes it is an Octo to IP but apparently has two legacy outputs also, which implies it is equivalent to a 10 output LNB.
I do not have access to this device so I am unsure if those legacy outputs would reduce the IP output numbers if the legacy outputs were in use. It seems not .... but I am not certain.

I would point out that with a five member family, it is not uncommon to have the five watching different channels, with a few spare tuners for preset recording.
Remember the more accessible live TV is ... and in this case it would be accessible on phone, tablet, laptop, PCs as well as any smart TV or client device for legacy TV ....... the more it is likely to be used.

This is the Inverto LNB for standard Sat dishes with 8 outputs to IPTV on Cat 6 cable
http://www.inverto.tv/products/product.php?id=264
(sellers seem to be scarce for this device recently; last price I saw was €309 plus carriage and maybe VAT)

When I consider that an octo tuner card, from the likes of TBS, is quite close in price, yet requiring a full PC to plug it into, then those IPTV devices look reasonable. This is about €385 ...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/TBS-Professional-DVB-S2-Tuner-Satellite-Red/dp/B018GR6C6O

PabloAndRoy

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Yes it is an Octo to IP but apparently has two legacy outputs also, which implies it is equivalent to a 10 output LNB.
I do not have access to this device so I am unsure if those legacy outputs would reduce the IP output numbers if the legacy outputs were in use. It seems not .... but I am not certain.

I looked in the user manual and its not clear whether 10 in total or 8.

I would point out that with a five member family, it is not uncommon to have the five watching different channels, with a few spare tuners for preset recording.
Remember the more accessible live TV is ... and in this case it would be accessible on phone, tablet, laptop, PCs as well as any smart TV or client device for legacy TV ....... the more it is likely to be used.

...

You could also install tvheadend (with access control) on a raspberry pi with the SAT>IP server as an input and then port forward that through your broadband uplink and viola, access your home TV system from anywhere in the world on your phone ,tablet, laptop etc.. (depending on your uplink speed of course).

Johnboy1951

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

I looked in the user manual and its not clear whether 10 in total or 8.

Yes it is rather ambiguous

You could also install tvheadend (with access control) on a raspberry pi with the SAT>IP server as an input and then port forward that through your broadband uplink and viola, access your home TV system from anywhere in the world on your phone ,tablet, laptop etc.. (depending on your uplink speed of course).

Yes that would be what I meant when I referred to a STB without tuners but with 'management' capabilities.

an STB without Sat tuners but with all the 'management' software to make viewing and selecting channels, EPG, recording, playback etc etc a smooth experience for multiple users

LibreELEC or its like as a very lightweight OS on such a device would do all that is required.