Dogs driving us mad

Dublinstiofán

Hi All,

Have two Pomeranian dogs for about 8 years. We adopted the both of them from another family.
The dogs have been ok in general (the girl has always needy and barks if put outside to get in,
the guy is ok but he pisses in the house the odd time), the were averagely behaved up until the
clocks changed recently.

The girl now insists on barking between 6am and 6:30am every morning to go out to the toilet
and wont give up until she is let out. The guy is pissing in the room they sleep in most nights
and scratching on the door to get out if he is restless. Nothing has changed in the room, their
beds are washed and clean.

Its really starting to grate on us after a month. Being woken up at 06:30am every day during
the week and weekends is starting to take its toll. As much as the family love the dogs i'm not
prepared to put up with this indefinitely.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated and thanks in advance

Chuchote

Sounds like they may have caught a bladder infection - I'd take them to the vet.

Dublinstiofán

Chuchote wrote: »

Sounds like they may have caught a bladder infection - I'd take them to the vet.

Ye the thing about that is he is not pissing anywhere else in the house if he's in during the day. Just in that room at night, and they are let out just before they're put to bed.

Chuchote

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Ye the thing about that is he is not pissing anywhere else in the house if he's in during the day. Just in that room at night, and they are let out just before they're put to bed.

Even so, I'd check with the vet.

If he's pissing only in that one room, give the room a good wash out with biological detergent - biological takes away the smell that makes him think "Ah, right, ok, this is the right place to piss" - and if you see him cock his leg indoors say "No, Bran [or whatever his name is]" in a shocked tone and open the door and usher him outside - and then when he pees outside give him a bit of praise.

It's probably also a good idea to teach your dogs to pee on command - this is easy enough. When you bring them out, each time one pees, say a particular word and give a little treat (cat treats work well, they're small enough and tasty enough). After a bit of this, try saying the word, and if they then pee, give a big fuss and a few more treats. Keep training. This is handy because you can let your dogs out last thing and ask them to piss and they'll do it. (Incidentally, the word you choose should be something that won't embarrass you with passers-by or visitors - choose something simple and easy for them to recognise, but not a word you're likely to use in ordinary conversation, like "Sarkozy".)

Also, do you bring your dogs out for a walk before bed? This is very nice for the dogs, and will also cause them to pee quite a bit, as they'll like to mark their territory. It doesn't have to be a long walk - 10 or 15 minutes is plenty.

But again, check with the vet. Dogs get cystitis and things like that, and it can be painful and make them dying to pee all the time, just like humans.

Dublinstiofán

Chuchote wrote: »

Even so, I'd check with the vet.

If he's pissing only in that one room, give the room a good wash out with biological detergent - biological takes away the smell that makes him think "Ah, right, ok, this is the right place to piss" - and if you see him cock his leg indoors say "No, Bran [or whatever his name is]" in a shocked tone and open the door and usher him outside - and then when he pees outside give him a bit of praise.

It's probably also a good idea to teach your dogs to pee on command - this is easy enough. When you bring them out, each time one pees, say a particular word and give a little treat (cat treats work well, they're small enough and tasty enough). After a bit of this, try saying the word, and if they then pee, give a big fuss and a few more treats. Keep training. This is handy because you can let your dogs out last thing and ask them to piss and they'll do it. (Incidentally, the word you choose should be something that won't embarrass you with passers-by or visitors - choose something simple and easy for them to recognise, but not a word you're likely to use in ordinary conversation, like "Sarkozy".)

Also, do you bring your dogs out for a walk before bed? This is very nice for the dogs, and will also cause them to pee quite a bit, as they'll like to mark their territory. It doesn't have to be a long walk - 10 or 15 minutes is plenty.

But again, check with the vet. Dogs get cystitis and things like that, and it can be painful and make them dying to pee all the time, just like humans.

Ok thanks for that advice, any idea how to stop the barking at 6am?

tk123

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Ok thanks for that advice, any idea how to stop the barking at 6am?

Assuming there's no medical conditions take her out to the loo and go back to bed?

Am I the only one who doesn't see what the big deal is here!? You're complaining about one dog telling you it needs to go to the loo and the other for not telling you.

Knine

What time do you put the dogs to bed at? I can't see the problem either?

iguana

Could there be something waking her at 6? My dogs start barking to be let out to pee within a minute or two of the boiler switching on. To him I guess it's an indication of us being up an about and that he should be let out too. It's a bit annoying as I want the boiler to have heated up the house before I get up and he makes me get up when it's still frigid. But it's understandable from his point of view.

Dublinstiofán

My issue with it is twofold:

We've owned the dogs for 8 years and they have never done this, i'm trying to find out why they are doing it now.

Its quite draining to be woken at 6am every morning, it disturbs your natural sleep cycle and we're all like wet rags at work for the day. This is not acceptable and while i'm not prepared to let the dogs go (yet) it couldn't continue. I'm very much of the opinion that you own dogs, the dogs don't own you.

Dublinstiofán

Knine wrote: »

What time do you put the dogs to bed at? I can't see the problem either?

Usually 10 or 11pm (when everybody else goes) and they are always let out before they go.

cocker5

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Usually 10 or 11pm (when everybody else goes) and they are always let out before they go.

My guy goes to bed around 10pm each evening and will still want to get up at 6am / 6.30am each day for his breakfast and toilet, i dont see the issue to be honest.

They are barking to let you know they need to go out.

pilly

On the fact that he's only peeing in one room I'd say he now thinks it's okay to pee in this room. So, as another poster suggested clean it up with strong detergent and maybe move them for a little while.

Also, is a cat flap a possibility? They're small dogs aren't they? Could they fit out of one?

Dublinstiofán

tk123 wrote: »

Assuming there's no medical conditions take her out to the loo and go back to bed?

Am I the only one who doesn't see what the big deal is here!? You're complaining about one dog telling you it needs to go to the loo and the other for not telling you.

No medical conditions. The issue isn't that the dog needs to go to the loo, the dog is waking and waking up the whole house. As a consequence of them waking they're being let out to go to the loo but i'm not of the opinion that they're bursting to go. The fella usually already has in the room anyway and i think she just wants attention (i think).

Just to note; this all could have stemmed from the first night it happened. When they barked the first night they were brought out the back to go to the loo and then (so they wouldn't cause anymore disruption) they were brought up to the beds. I think they may have gotten in their head now that barking is a good idea at 6am, not to go to the toilet but because there is a chance they will end up in a comfortable bed and get the attention.

This only happened on one occasion but i think they've caught on to it.

pilly

To be fair to OP, 6am in the morning is early to be woken, particularly if you're bad at getting back to sleep and then have to get up for work. It's not like having a baby where you accept these sacrifices. The dogs are around 8 years and this has suddenly changed so he's trying to find out why.

Dublinstiofán

pilly wrote: »

On the fact that he's only peeing in one room I'd say he now thinks it's okay to pee in this room. So, as another poster suggested clean it up with strong detergent and maybe move them for a little while.

Also, is a cat flap a possibility? They're small dogs aren't they? Could they fit out of one?

Might try to move them elsewhere for a change see if this sorts it out. Cat flap is not possible i'm afraid.

Dublinstiofán

cocker5 wrote: »

My guy goes to bed around 10pm each evening and will still want to get up at 6am / 6.30am each day for his breakfast and toilet, i dont see the issue to be honest.

They are barking to let you know they need to go out.

Thats the thing, i don't think they are. On the odd occasion that they get to sleep upstairs they sleep through the night and don't stir.

pilly

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

No medical conditions. The issue isn't that the dog needs to go to the loo, the dog is waking and waking up the whole house. As a consequence of them waking they're being let out to go to the loo but i'm not of the opinion that they're bursting to go. The fella usually already has in the room anyway and i think she just wants attention (i think).

Just to note; this all could have stemmed from the first night it happened. When they barked the first night they were brought out the back to go to the loo and then (so they wouldn't cause anymore disruption) they were brought up to the beds. I think they may have gotten in their head now that barking is a good idea at 6am, not to go to the toilet but because there is a chance they will end up in a comfortable bed and get the attention.

This only happened on one occasion but i think they've caught on to it.

You could very well be right. I've allowed my dog into my room in the past when he was sick and he whinged for a while after when I wouldn't keep letting him in, hopefully if that's the case they'll just cop on that barking isn't going to help. Could you stick ignoring them altogether for a few mornings? Earbuds?

Dublinstiofán

pilly wrote: »

You could very well be right. I've allowed my dog into my room in the past when he was sick and he whinged for a while after when I wouldn't keep letting him in, hopefully if that's the case they'll just cop on that barking isn't going to help. Could you stick ignoring them altogether for a few mornings? Earbuds?

Ye i think it might come to that

Knine

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Usually 10 or 11pm (when everybody else goes) and they are always let out before they go.

10 is quite early I think. I let mine out at about midnight but I don't sleep much!

tk123

pilly wrote: »

The dogs are around 8 years and this has suddenly changed so he's trying to find out why.

A sudden change in behaviour warrants a trip to the vets... And OP bring urine samples to save having to bring them back.

aonb

The dogs are getting older - you've had them 8 years - you put them to bed quite early, they are lasting 8+ hours without a pee.... they are now elderly dogs - less able to last as long as when they were younger.

few things:

If everything was fine until a month ago, when you took them upstairs just once, I would imagine they've forgotten about that one treat by now.

If there is even a residual smell of pee in the room they sleep in the male could just keep peeing there (its 8+ hours). As mentioned, a really really good clean of everything - skirting etc in the room.

You dont sound like you are very bonded with these dogs OP (apologies if this is not the case) and getting frustrated with the situation. Could you just get them out to pee last thing at night (later than 10pm) or let them out to pee when you or someone in the house gets up in the night to go to the loo, or if you have children, assign the job to one of them at 6a.m.

toadfly

Would you crate train them to stop the male peeing at night?

Clean the room extremely well with bio washing powder and water.

If you are sure they dont need the toilet and dont have any medical conditions (although it doesnt sound like you are a vet so you cant be sure of that) then ignore them and they will get used to not getting up that early.

peasant

Would i be right in assuming that on a normal day you would get up at 7 - 7:30 ?

Dublinstiofán

Ye they would generally be content until 7-8 previously. Maybe their clock hasn't adjusted!

thegodlife

I can understand the issue I have 3 big dogs and bring them out at bedtime even if it's after midnight but one of them regardless always wants to go for a pee between 5 - 6am which wakes the other dogs up so im usually out a 5.3o with 3 dogs. its always me as no one else in the family is bothered to get up even though it was their idea to get the dogs. I go back to bed for an hour and a half but sleep is broken. No matter what we do he just needs to go at that time.

Im kind to all our animals but God help me hes only 8 and im starting to calculate how many more years im going to have to get up at this hour. lol

peasant

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Maybe their clock hasn't adjusted!

I'd say that's the main issue (seenashow the problem started with the time change )

Dublinstiofán

thegodlife wrote: »

I can understand the issue I have 3 big dogs and bring them out at bedtime even if it's after midnight but one of them regardless always wants to go for a pee between 5 - 6am which wakes the other dogs up so im usually out a 5.3o with 3 dogs. its always me as no one else in the family is bothered to get up even though it was their idea to get the dogs. I go back to bed for an hour and a half but sleep is broken. No matter what we do he just needs to go at that time.

Im kind to all our animals but God help me hes only 8 and im starting to calculate how many more years im going to have to get up at this hour. lol

Ye thats the real issue. Dogs are great until I get sacked from my job for underperformance due to lack of sleep.

DBB

It's difficult to know what's going on. I do understand what your problem is with it all op, prolonged broken sleep is quite debilitating.
It could be a straightforward matter of their body clocks not having adjusted.
It could be that the male has a uti, or is overmarking pee spots that haven't been cleaned "properly". Bear with me on this one!
It could be that the male peeing is really upsetting the female, causing her to bark.
It could be that the female has a uti.
It could be a noise that's rousing them from their sleep.

One thing's more sure for me. I'd put money on that initial reaction of bringing them upstairs has, in fact, perpetuated this behaviour. Many unwanted behaviours in dogs are set up by "one-trial learning".

So, working through the above list...
If their body clocks have not adjusted, and assuming that this boils down to either her needing to pee, or him peeing and upsetting her, what I would do for the next couple of weeks (yes, I know... a couple of weeks , but this is a means to an end! You're already getting up anyway), is to get up before she starts barking, and get them both out for a pee. This means setting your clock for...5am ish? and bringing them out. You are going to find out pretty quickly whether this works, as if you can get back to bed for another couple of hours to snooze without barking, you have your answer.
When you're trying to get rid of unwanted behaviour, you have to minimise as far as humanly possible, the dog's opportunities to rehearse the unwanted behaviour. Getting up before the barking addresses this. Furthermore, by getting up when she has already started barking, you're reinforcing the barking, and it's going to become more and more entrenched with each successful rehearsal.
So, for a few days, set your clock for 5-ish. Then, start extending the time, so that you start getting them out at, say... 5.15? Then 5.30. and gradually push them through to your normal waking time. This is what works effectively for puppies, and sometimes when adults have a housetraining hiccup, you need to bring things back to basics.

Next, you don't know whether either has a uti (or another health issue... I've known dogs to pee in the house when they've developed a sore tooth... pain or infection anywhere in the body can do weird things to the housetraining). If you were really doing this right, you should get them checked out. The vast majority of sudden behavioural changes, particularly changes in housetraining, are caused by an underlying medical issue. Neither dog may seem sick to you, but they are genetically designed to hide pain/discomfort until it gets really bad.
Having said that, I'd try the above step first for a few nights.

It has already been recommended to use dissolved biological washing powder to digest the enzymes in the pee. What have you been cleaning up the accidents with? If there's any bleach in the product you've been using, or if it's simply a product that masks smells by layering over them with nice smells, then there's a very real chance your male has been overmarking the pee spots. Bleach essentially smells of other dog ("Wah! An intruder! How dare he mark MY territory!"), and masking agents dilute the resident dog's smell, encouraging him to strengthen the smell up again.
It can also help to feed the dog(s) in the spots they are peeing, as they're not as inclined to dirty their dining room.
If this is a matter of the male peeing upsetting the female, if you can stop the male from peeing, then you've solved your problem.

It has already been asked whether there could be a noise rousing them. Can you discount this? Central heating? A pump? A neighbour heading to work? Cats outside? I would be very tempted to set up a webcam to see what exactly is going on just before they wake up, and what the nature of the wake-up is... is it sudden, a response to an external stimulus? Is it a gradual process? Is the dog peeing and the bitch reacting to that? It could answer some critical questions for you!

Dublinstiofán

Thanks for the advice all. For the moment i spent a few hours tonight scrubbing the room, moved all the furniture and rearranged their beds to (what could be) a better location in the same room. We'll see how that goes first.

JustAThought

I have a rubber backed mat for the kitchen from IKEA at the door, when unreliable pee-ers are staying over I leave the dog in the kitchen sheltered behind a pillow windbreak & she can toodle in & out & pee to pleae herself & I can linger in bed. Problem solved & I don't worry about burgalers as the dog would wake me barking at them!

I'd say the dogs clock hasn't gone back yet - and the crazy super full moon hasn't helped!

Chuchote

If you do end up training your dogs so they'll pee on command, OP, note the case of Prince Rupert of the Rhyne's poodle, Boye

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boye_(dog)

Reportedly, Boye had other endearing attributes, such as cocking his leg when he heard the name of John Pym, leader of the Parliamentarian forces.

AryaStark

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

My issue with it is twofold:

We've owned the dogs for 8 years and they have never done this, i'm trying to find out why they are doing it now.

Its quite draining to be woken at 6am every morning, it disturbs your natural sleep cycle and we're all like wet rags at work for the day. This is not acceptable and while i'm not prepared to let the dogs go (yet) it couldn't continue. I'm very much of the opinion that you own dogs, the dogs don't own you.

You need to bring your female dogs or both to the vet.

We had three dogs and two of them used to sleep together in the living room. All of a sudden the male started to mark the room and sometimes other rooms in the house.
It turned out that Lady had kidney problems. She died of Kidney failure recently. She never went in the house but the vet said she may have been leaving a strong scent and that is why Aragon was marking .. it was to cover the smell of her.

Now Aragon has not once marked since she has died and we cleaned up her space. It could be something like this. Maybe she is sick/older and can't hold it in as much as she used to and needs to get out earlier too.

pilly

AryaStark wrote: »

You need to bring your female dogs or both to the vet.

We had three dogs and two of them used to sleep together in the living room. All of a sudden the male started to mark the room and sometimes other rooms in the house.
It turned out that Lady had kidney problems. She died of Kidney failure recently. She never went in the house but the vet said she may have been leaving a strong scent and that is why Aragon was marking .. it was to cover the smell of her.

Now Aragon has not once marked since she has died and we cleaned up her space. It could be something like this. Maybe she is sick/older and can't hold it in as much as she used to and needs to get out earlier too.

God, this post has scared me now because sometimes my older dog, Springer Spaniel has an unexplained accident in the house and it smells absolutely foul. I've mentioned it to the vet who said it was probably his age (he's 13) but I would be worried now. My last dog died from Cancer very quickly.

AryaStark

pilly wrote: »

God, this post has scared me now because sometimes my older dog, Springer Spaniel has an unexplained accident in the house and it smells absolutely foul. I've mentioned it to the vet who said it was probably his age (he's 13) but I would be worried now. My last dog died from Cancer very quickly.

Our girl lady was only sick a short time but by the end you would have known something way wrong just from the smell... even her breath was a bit smelly.
Her urine was also staining her coat and you could see it was a bit orange/rusty and would not wash away.
I am no expert so hopefully if your vet is monitoring your dog it is ok..

For the op if you have not already had your dogs to the vets then I think some blood tests etc would not hurt and at least you would be able to actually rule out health issues instead of just thinking that they are healthy. Dogs are very good at looking and pretending to be healthy when there can be things seriously wrong.

La.de.da

Pending a vet check and all of that is okay, I'd put my money on it that they are trying to get up to yere beds.

Dogs are very clever. Give them the habit once or twice of sleeping in your bed they'll do anything to get back there.

Also sounds like a bit of separation anxiety.

mymo

If you're going to bring them to a vet try and get a urine sample each, if you have a dishwasher a freshly washed jar and a ladle is all you need for each dog. Bring them out one by one on a lead and try a catch them mid stream with ladle, pour into jar and write dogs name on jar with a sharpie or sticker

It's easier than you'd think, especially first thing in the morning.

Cdosrun

I ment to post this here.

Cdosrun wrote: »

A 10 minute walk before their bed time and they will do most of the pee they have.
Letting your dog out the back does not mean it had a pee.
No bother in the morning.



Edit: if you walk your dog at 7.30pm and let it out at 10pm maybe it is fine for a pee and won't go so has to last all night to get you up to go.