Ireland v Australia - Build Up discussion/News

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Just on the Lions FB thing, there is a thread that would be perfect for the Lions FB thing

Congratulations on being made a mod.

Kal El

molloyjh wrote: »

True, but as I said it's still unlikely unless they are short on numbers for some reason. He is clearly behind Hogg, Halfpenney, Williams, Brown and Kearney as a FB. In fact looking at the back 3 Hogg, Halfpenney, Williams, Brown and North will all be selected ahead of Zebo. You'd have to assume that England will have 1 or 2 wingers in there too like Watson for example. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that Zebo might not tour with the Lions.

Thats the thing though, he may well be behind them but Halfpenny isnt as good as him fullstop and more. Kearney is not a good winger. Williams and Zebo imo will both travel with the other two fb's.

Kal El

Deleted User wrote: »

It's not outside the realms of possibility that Zebo will play a midweek Lions game. I'm fairly sure those games aren't capped so there is an obvious distinction. He's not a hope of playing a proper test out there.

What difference does being capped make. Its no less an achievement. I do think theres a chance he starts a test but Ill admit it wont be fullback :pac:

Kal El

molloyjh wrote: »

And not Williams no?

I think he will aswell as Zebo.

Kal El

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I was just about to post the same thing. Silly conversation to be having on this thread.

I posted before I saw all the posts

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Kal El wrote: »

I posted before I saw all the posts

If you press the multi quote button before replying you can do all your replies in the one post.

Maybe you know that already and it's a personal choice, but just in case you don't.

Neil3030

wp_rathead wrote: »

are we really having another Kearney debate lads

It's the boards.ie version of Japanese knotweed. Hell-bent on destruction and impossible to get rid of.

shootermacg

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Why not? What does he do at 7 that he'll be incapable of doing at 8?

Pocock is a fetcher type seven. Hooper is a seven in the mold of VdF (or vice versa) the open-side has more ground to cover and generally needs more pace but, saying that, Hooper is no slouch in the fetcher role either. I'd have to say all round, Hooper is the better 7.

The Rape of Lucretia

Kal El wrote: »

What difference does being capped make. Its no less an achievement. I do think theres a chance he starts a test but Ill admit it wont be fullback :pac:

It does make a big difference, it is less of an acheivement, and it doesnt happen to every guy!

No chance he will be a test starter without a serious raft of injuries.

Being capped means you are a first choice lion, and hence, a true lion. Playing midweek games means you are a second choice lion, and so a 'lions tourist'.

Kal El

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It does make a big difference, it is less of an acheivement, and it doesnt happen to every guy!

No chance he will be a test starter without a serious raft of injuries.

Being capped means you are a first choice lion, and hence, a true lion. Playing midweek games means you are a second choice lion, and so a 'lions tourist'.

I dunno, Id see them both as a massive achievement myself. Then again with a few of Warrens late call ups last time you could be right. Is Shane Williams still rocking around Japan

CMOTDibbler

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

It does make a big difference, it is less of an acheivement, and it doesnt happen to every guy!

I see what you did there Mister Bing.

Cathalthesmart

15 Rob Kearney
14 Andrew Trimble
13 Jared Payne
12 Luke Marshall
11 Simon Zebo
10 Paddy Jackson
9 Conor Murray
8 Jamie Heaslip
7 Sean O’Brian
6 Peter O’Mahony
5 Devin Toner
4 Donnacha Ryan
3 Tadgh Furlong
2 Rory Best
1 Jack McGrath

16 Sean Cronin
17 Cian Healy
18 Finlay Bealham
19 Iain Henderson
20 Josh van der Flier
21 Kieran Marmion
22 Joey Carbery
23 Garry Ringrose

My prediction, I think Earls could come in for Zebo if he doesn't recover, if Kearney isn't fit Zebo will shift to the wing with Earls again slotting onto the wing. If Kearney and Zebo aren't fit i'd play O'Halloran at fullback with ....AGAIN Earls going to the wing

Backrow is just so hard to predict, Heaslip is the only certainty.

CMOTDibbler

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

15 Rob Kearney
14 Andrew Trimble
13 Jared Payne
12 Luke Marshall
11 Simon Zebo
10 Paddy Jackson
9 Conor Murray
8 Jamie Heaslip
7 Sean O’Brian
6 Peter O’Mahony
5 Devin Toner
4 Donnacha Ryan
3 Tadgh Furlong
2 Rory Best
1 Jack McGrath

16 Sean Cronin
17 Cian Healy
18 Finlay Bealham
19 Iain Henderson
20 Josh van der Flier
21 Kieran Marmion
22 Joey Carbery
23 Garry Ringrose

My prediction, I think Earls could come in for Zebo if he doesn't recover, if Kearney isn't fit Zebo will shift to the wing with Earls again slotting onto the wing. If Kearney and Zebo aren't fit i'd play O'Halloran at fullback with ....AGAIN Earls going to the wing

Backrow is just so hard to predict, Heaslip is the only certainty.

I'd say Dillane instead of Henderson and there's a strong chance Ringrose will start instead of Marshall. Zebo on the bench and Earls to start.

Cathalthesmart

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'd say Dillane instead of Henderson and there's a strong chance Ringrose will start instead of Marshall. Zebo on the bench and Earls to start.

Cant see Ringrose starting at 12, had a very good game last week but it was his first ever professional game at 12 and I can't see Schmidt just chucking him in there again, last week was just a crisis. Dillane I really wanted to include but looking at the options I can't see how Schmidt will drop either Ryan or Toner plus he can't drop Van der Flier either meaning Henderson and Dillane are fighting it out for the 19 shirt which I feel Henderson should get because he covers the back row being the decisive factor.

ionadnapokot

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'd say Dillane instead of Henderson and there's a strong chance Ringrose will start instead of Marshall. Zebo on the bench and Earls to start.

Also think Ringrose will start at 12. I thought he did very well on Sat with ball in hand, eked out a few yards in tight spaces. Put in some good tackles too. Never played 12?

bilston

Watching the game again from the weekend Henderson was a bit more prominent than I remembered, I'd still expect Dillane to come onto the bench.

I'd definitely start Van Der Flier whether that means SOB goes to 6 or not.

I don't expect it will happen but if we do go for an out and out 12 I'd pick Olding over Marshall. I'd love to Ringrose at 13, but it ain't happening as Payne is nailed on at 13...unless he were to go to 15, but that's unlikely.

I wonder if we will see any tinkering with the props?

CMOTDibbler

Cathalthesmart wrote: »

Cant see Ringrose starting at 12, had a very good game last week but it was his first ever professional game at 12 and I can't see Schmidt just chucking him in there again, last week was just a crisis. Dillane I really wanted to include but looking at the options I can't see how Schmidt will drop either Ryan or Toner plus he can't drop Van der Flier either meaning Henderson and Dillane are fighting it out for the 19 shirt which I feel Henderson should get because he covers the back row being the decisive factor.

When Schmidt put Ringrose on the bench in two successive games against New Zealand, he clearly felt that the possibility was there that he'd need him on the pitch in any of three different positions.

That he took one of those up for the majority of a match with little or no ill effect on the team as a whole and in fact by any objective measure, had a positive influence, has to at least put him in shouting distance of a start against Australia.

It's not a given, but it has to be considered. With Earls back, we should start him as it's important he gets game time against Tier 1 opposition. It makes sense then to have Zebo on the bench to cover wing and fullback and it's an easy straight swap between Kearney and O'Halloran depending on Kearney's fitness. The other option is Marshall at 12, but he really didn't impress against Canada; giving away possession and a try.

Outside chance of Olding, but he hasn't played once this Autumn. It would be a really strange decision if he was selected.

I don't understand your reasoning about Dillane. He either benches or starts and either of POM and JvdF benches. I assume Stander won't be available.

wittycynic

I would hope that both Stander and Kearney are rested for this one. Concussion is a serious injury and one week's recovery time is short. There is abundant cover for Stander anyway, and in my view VDF's last two performances off the bench for Ireland are deserving of a start. That means SOB and POM to 6 and 20, though not necessarily in that order.

Kearney is a little more difficult to replace, but taking a global view of their performances over the past year or so, I don't think it would be reasonable to say there is much of a gulf between Kearney and O'Halloran. We are short of real top class talent in the back three at the moment, but we still have to develop squad depth using the players available to us. This match seems like a good opportunity for TOH. He is a pacey guy who runs good lines, and there will likely be a fair bit of broken play in which to show those abilities.

My twenty three would be:
1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Furlong
4. Henderson
5. Toner
6. O'Brien
7. Van der Flier
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Jackson
11. Zebo (Earls if unfit)
12. Ringrose
13. Payne
14. Trimble
15. O'Halloran

16. Cronin
17. Healy
18. Ryan
19. Dillane
20. O'Mahony
21. Marmion
22. Carbery
23. Earls (Marshall if Earls starting and Zebo unfit)

whatawaster

I would start Ringrose at 12. He played well there against NZ and there is no reason he couldn't be a quality 12 (he is just a better 13). Remember Joe started Henshaw at 12 and everyone thought he was mad up until recently, because he had previously been a 13. Now he is an out and out 12 and one of the best in the world imo.

15. O'Halloran
14. Trimble
13. Payne
12. Ringrose
11. Zebo
10. Jackson
9. Murray

8. Heaslip
7. Van Der Flier
6. O'Brien
5. Toner
4. Dillane
3. Furlong
2. Best
1. McGrath

16. Cronin
17. Healy
18. Bealham
19. Henderson
20. O'Mahony
21. McGrath
22. Carbery
23. Earls

wp_rathead

wp_rathead wrote: »

are we really having another Kearney debate lads

Crazy isn't it. But then again, he is competing with the future Lion Nagle for a starting berth in the Leinster side and Toner has been a mainstay of the side for years too. Triggs and Moloney both there and obviously McCarthy in the picture.

He'll only get better with the competition for a role in the second row there, but I don't think he should be involved in the Ireland game this weekend. Not yet.

Credit to him that his name gets brought up so often though.

Is Luke Marshall not in the picture to start at 12?

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Deleted User wrote: »

Is Luke Marshall not in the picture to start at 12?

I would have thought so, particularly with Jackson starting at 10. Plus he's already played a full 80 with Ringrose, which is about as familiar as Ringrose can be with any of the centre options available. That's assuming Ringrose starts at 13. If Kearney is fit and we go with Payne at 13 that's an all Ulster 10/12/13/14, which you'd think would be beneficial.

molloyjh

Deleted User wrote: »

Is Luke Marshall not in the picture to start at 12?

He's the obvious choice you'd think.

Kiwi_knock

Fardy unlikely to play as he is the Emerging Australia squad for their game against the French Barbarians on Thursday evening. Skelton, Robertson, Naiyaravoro, Godwin and Morahan are in this squad as well so unlikely to see them involved in the 23 on Saturday.

Nift

Are we scoring enough tries through our backs? We will need to do more against Australia i reckon. How many of these are backline tries...and/or does it matter?

2014 6N
Wal 2
Eng 1
Fra 3


Summer/Autumn
Arg 3
Arg 2
SA 2
Aus 2


2015 6N
Fra 0
Eng 1
Wal 1

World cup warm ups
Wal 5
Wal 1
Eng 1


World Cup
Fra 2
Arg 2

2016 6N
Wal 1
Fra 0
Eng 1


Summer/Autumn
SA 2
SA 2
SA 1
NZ 5
NZ 0

Average 1.7 tries per game.

vienne86

Deleted User wrote: »

Is Luke Marshall not in the picture to start at 12?

He certainly should be, but I thought he wasn't good at all againse Canada. I'd say it will depend on how he is going in training.

Kevski

wittycynic wrote: »

I would hope that both Stander and Kearney are rested for this one. Concussion is a serious injury and one week's recovery time is short.

Neither of them were concussed though. If both pass RTPPs then I wouldn't be surprised to see them selected,

CMOTDibbler

Kevski wrote: »

Neither of them were concussed though. If both pass RTPPs then I wouldn't be surprised to see them selected,

Not sure I follow. Concussion manifests in many different ways. That's why they have HIAs. And both failed them which would seem to suggest concussion, no?

former total

It's not outside the bounds of possibility that we'll see a Ringrose/Payne midfield, I think Henshaw had only played 1 or 2 games at 12 before Joe put him there in November 2014?

Kevski

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Not sure I follow. Concussion manifests in many different ways. That's why they have HIAs. And both failed them which would seem to suggest concussion, no?

Failure of a HIA isn't a diagnosis of a concussion though, it just identifies that the player may have one. Isn't there a 14 day rest period with no excercise following a diagnosed concussion? Kearney and Stander's presence at training yesterday would make me think that neither had been concussed although I'm open to correction as I'm not a medical expert!

Edit - Kearney didn't train so maybe he was concussed?

molloyjh

former total wrote: »

It's not outside the bounds of possibility that we'll see a Ringrose/Payne midfield, I think Henshaw had only played 1 or 2 games at 12 before Joe put him there in November 2014?

Yeah but he'd been training with the squad for well over a year at that stage so was pretty up to speed with the systems etc. There is a bit of a difference between the 2 cases.

CMOTDibbler

Kevski wrote: »

Failure of a HIA isn't a diagnosis of a concussion though, it just identifies that the player may have one. Isn't there a 14 day rest period with no excercise following a diagnosed concussion? Kearney and Stander's presence at training yesterday would make me think that neither had been concussed although I'm open to correction as I'm not a medical expert!

Any player who undertakes an HIA (irrespective of the result) must undertake a further clinical assessment supported by the SCAT 3 immediately after the match and again at 36-48 hours - it is during this period that the diagnosis occurs

Any player with a concussion must undertake a supervised graduated return to play protocol to manage safe return to competition

So they would have had mandatory assessments sometime yesterday evening (inside the 36-48 hour window). If they're on RTPP, then they were diagnosed with concussion. I'm not sure if they are or not on RTPP.

Zzippy

Neil3030 wrote: »

It's the boards.ie version of Japanese knotweed. Hell-bent on destruction and impossible to get rid of.

Did you just call RK an invasive alien? We've enough of those in the squad according to some...

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Kevski wrote: »

Failure of a HIA isn't a diagnosis of a concussion though, it just identifies that the player may have one. Isn't there a 14 day rest period with no excercise following a diagnosed concussion? Kearney and Stander's presence at training yesterday would make me think that neither had been concussed although I'm open to correction as I'm not a medical expert!

Edit - Kearney didn't train so maybe he was concussed?

Depending on the severity of the knock I believe the system is 24 hours rest, then they come in and do a small amount of exercise, 20 minutes on a treadmill say, then are monitored for concussion like symptoms. If they pass that part they come back and do a bit more, and so on. If they fail any stage they are put back to the first stage again.
Sometimes a concussion will present itself straight away, sometimes it can be the next day. They take it so seriously now that any head knock will undergo a HIA and then the RTPP. There is no medical backing for the validity of the HIA. Passing it doesn't mean you won't have concussion symptoms 5 hour later. Failing one doesn't mean you have a concussion. A lot of it is down to the individual medical people and a bit of common sense.

Adbrowne

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

So they would have had mandatory assessments sometime yesterday evening (inside the 36-48 hour window). If they're on RTPP, then they were diagnosed with concussion. I'm not sure if they are or not on RTPP.

JS said in his interview after the game that they will go through the protocols.

Kevski

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Depending on the severity of the knock I believe the system is 24 hours rest, then they come in and do a small amount of exercise, 20 minutes on a treadmill say, then are monitored for concussion like symptoms. If they pass that part they come back and do a bit more, and so on. If they fail any stage they are put back to the first stage again.
Sometimes a concussion will present itself straight away, sometimes it can be the next day. They take it so seriously now that any head knock will undergo a HIA and then the RTPP. There is no medical backing for the validity of the HIA. Passing it doesn't mean you won't have concussion symptoms 5 hour later. Failing one doesn't mean you have a concussion. A lot of it is down to the individual medical people and a bit of common sense.

That makes sense. I guess we'll know what's happening for certain tomorrow afternoon.

Bazzo

former total wrote: »

It's not outside the bounds of possibility that we'll see a Ringrose/Payne midfield, I think Henshaw had only played 1 or 2 games at 12 before Joe put him there in November 2014?

Henshaw had 0 games at 12 before Schmidt started him there but I'd say his skillset is more suited to the position than Ringrose's.

former total

Bazzo wrote: »

Henshaw had 0 games at 12 before Schmidt started him there but I'd say his skillset is more suited to the position than Ringrose's.

But could Payne play 12? I think so.

CMOTDibbler

former total wrote: »

But could Payne play 12? I think so.

In some respects, 13 is a more difficult position than 12. It's starting to look pretty inevitable that our midfield will soon be Henshaw and Ringrose. In terms of backup or possibly the other way around, Olding and McCloskey could also feature there with Marshall possibly slotting in and out. And that's just including the guys who've actually got caps.

We're in a far better position at centre than we (or certainly, I) thought we would be after BOD and D'Arcy retired.

irishbucsfan

I think it may not matter who wears 12 and 13 between Ringrose and Payne, I think it's very likely Payne will still defend in the 13 channel regardless. Unless Payne plays 15 that is.

shootermacg

I would definitely rest as many as possible. What's the point in a large squad if you don't trust them to fit in seamlessly.

There's a case to start a lot of alts in the pack, the game against NZ was too intense to let the pack play again.

shootermacg

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think it may not matter who wears 12 and 13 between Ringrose and Payne, I think it's very likely Payne will still defend in the 13 channel regardless. Unless Payne plays 15 that is.

I'd play Scannell with Payne.

molloyjh

shootermacg wrote: »

I'd play Scannell with Payne.

Of course you would.

However Scannell isn't familiar with the set-up and so asking him to play with players he has never played with in a system he isn't familiar with against one of the best sides in the world isn't exactly setting him up for success now is it?

leakyboots

Apparently Billy Holland and POM were both in UL this morning with the Munster squad

leakyboots

shootermacg wrote: »

I'd play Scannell with Payne.

Ah much and all as I can't wait to see Rory Scannell in green I think this game is too soon. Unless there's a slew of injuries I can't see how he'll be involved

molloyjh

leakyboots wrote: »

Apparently Billy Holland and POM were both in UL this morning with the Munster squad

Surprised that POM is tbh. Figured he was sure to start. But if Stander is available I suppose I can see the logic I suppose. Unless this is an off day?

Sanjuro

leakyboots wrote: »

Apparently Billy Holland and POM were both in UL this morning with the Munster squad

Stander available to play then?

CMOTDibbler

Sanjuro wrote: »

Stander available to play then?

Looks like it. There'd be no way POM would be back in Munster if he was going to play.

former total

leakyboots wrote: »

Apparently Billy Holland and POM were both in UL this morning with the Munster squad

That is a surprise, if true.

If Stander is fit, POM won't make the 23, but it seems early to be sending him home since Munster don't play until Saturday and Stander could yet have a relapse.

whatawaster

former total wrote: »

That is a surprise, if true.

If Stander is fit, POM won't make the 23, but it seems early to be sending him home since Munster don't play until Saturday and Stander could yet have a relapse.

We do have an excellent 6 in reserve in Henderson, and plenty of 2nd row cover in Toner, Ryan and Dillane.