The End for Youghal?

dowlingm

Given the spike in need for housing, revitalizing a town like Youghal might seem to be something worth considering rather than try to jam more estates into other areas. Yes, buses can and do operate but the case was made out for Midleton and the longer the commute the more being crammed into a bus will chafe.

As noted above with respect to other closure candidates, it will be interesting to see what happens the next time there is a serious landslip or flood event in Wicklow if stock is still in Wexford.

AngryLips

I don't know the area, but doesn't Youghal have the potential to be a good commuter town for Cork?

Also, I'm surprised that Irish Rail don't want to close the Drogheda-Navan line.

I've always wondered why Galway services aren't routed via Mullingar-Athlone terminating at Connolly, it seems like there is a huge disparity in service frequencies between the line out to Sligo vs. the line out towards Cork. Redirecting Galway IC services would address that a bit.

Del.Monte

AngryLips wrote: »

I don't know the area, but doesn't Youghal have the potential to be a good commuter town for Cork?

Also, I'm surprised that Irish Rail don't want to close the Drogheda-Navan line.

I've always wondered why Galway services aren't routed via Mullingar-Athlone terminating at Connolly, it seems like there is a huge disparity in service frequencies between the line out to Sligo vs. the line out towards Cork. Redirecting Galway IC services would address that a bit.

Of course the Youghal line has commuter potential, but as it fell outside the scope of the 1970s Cork LUTS (Land Use & Transportation Study) it has never been considered.

The Drogheda/Navan line survives as the traffic from Tara Mines uses the route. When that traffic is finished so is the line.

Galway services were originally routed via Athlone/Mullingar but as CIE are obsessed by reducing track mileage......

L1011

AngryLips wrote: »

Also, I'm surprised that Irish Rail don't want to close the Drogheda-Navan line.

It has freight traffic that is legally required to use rail (planning condition)

hytrogen

AngryLips wrote:

I don't know the area, but doesn't Youghal have the potential to be a good commuter town for Cork?

It's one of the contributing factors to the jack lynch tunnel, south link & dunkettle interchange is jammers everyday, mostly from traffic commuting east-west bound..

Isambard

hytrogen wrote: »

It's one of the contributing factors to the jack lynch tunnel, south link & dunkettle interchange is jammers everyday, mostly from traffic commuting east-west bound..

South Ring you mean?

dowlingm

Navan is a whole other story - if the Clonsilla line had been completed to Navan I think the Drogheda line would be a greenway now since the Taras could be shifted out of the way of Enterprise/DART/etc.

East Cork is one of those places where there is potential to have bus and rail do separate and important things:

1. Expressway (Parnell Place) West Cork-(Cork-Youghal)-Waterford-Rosslare
2. Rail (Kent) extend the Midleton commuter link to Youghal, preferably being able to park 2-4 sets and eliminate deadheading/promote early/late service. A station at/east of Killeagh as a park and ride option for people coming in via the Youghal bypass
3. Local Bus - instead of running into Cork, bringing people to the local railhead to facilitate city centre commuters but then continuing on *through the tunnel* with routes serving one or more of the airport, Mahon Point, Regional Hospital, CIT.

But that is joinedy-up network transportation and, well, CIE...

Isambard

Sounds reasonable but Killeagh to Midleton is only 15km...could not what you propose be operated from there without the expense of rail re-opening?

If such a network took off, then is the time to consider extending the line.
Meanwhile, the car park at Midleton is rather empty indicating to me that most people prefer to drive

Logue no2

Isambard wrote: »

Sounds reasonable but Killeagh to Midleton is only 15km...could not what you propose be operated from there without the expense of rail re-opening?

If such a network took off, then is the time to consider extending the line.
Meanwhile, the car park at Midleton is rather empty indicating to me that most people prefer to drive

Sorry Corky the numbers are good at Midleton and don't forget the car parking charges put a lot of commuters off using the car park.

marno21

Logue no2 wrote: »

Sorry Corky the numbers are good at Midleton and don't forget the car parking charges put a lot of commuters off using the car park.

And the lack of connectivity in the city. Train is useless unless you're going to the city centre.

marno21

http://www.eveningecho.ie/corknews/Public-meeting-to-look-at-use-of-old-rail-lines-7b47d125-9ac4-423f-8222-d91f349395f5-ds

Public meeting to happen in a weeks time on the future of the railway to Youghal in light of forthcoming greenway plans.

Del.Monte

And the Greens want the rail route preserved for railway use only and the greenway to go elsewhere. This from the party who when in government sanctioned the closure of the Waterford/Rosslare route. As for 'the people of Youghal' - God help us ! - they will end up with neither if their past efforts are anything to go by. :rolleyes:

Isambard

I wonder where the Greenway is going to go in this instance, Youghal to Midleton doesn't seem to make sense on it's own and there's little scope, geographically, for going further east. I think this is a question of jumping on the Waterford Greenway bandwagon without thinking it through.

I don't think there is much potential currently for a rail link, but of all the greenways built and proposed this one does seem to have more potential as a rail link than most.

marno21

Isambard wrote: »

I wonder where the Greenway is going to go in this instance, Youghal to Midleton doesn't seem to make sense on it's own and there's little scope, geographically, for going further east. I think this is a question of jumping on the Waterford Greenway bandwagon without thinking it through.

I don't think there is much potential currently for a rail link, but of all the greenways built and proposed this one does seem to have more potential as a rail link than most.

Given the amount of office space opening up and the general push in Cork city centre I am tending to agree.

There is space for 8,000 office workers coming online in the next year or so, 5,000 at Kent Station (Horgan's Quay) and 3,000 at Navigation Square. If that continues in Cork city centre I think it would be imprudent to abandon the alignment, it's quite a direct route and there are no plans to sort out the N25 before 2030.

Isambard

..and thinking laterally, developing Youghal as a Commuter dormitory might be it's salvation, it's never going to be a great tourist magnet again. I have my doubts tbh, but it might be prudent in this case to secure the alignment

tabbey

Isambard wrote: »

it might be prudent in this case to secure the alignment

It would be crazy and criminal to abandon such a good alignment.

It might not reopen for ten or twenty years, but Iam sure it will be found necessary in the long term.

As road traffic on the N25 increases each year and has no additional capacity on the Lower Glanmire Road, the rail alternative becomes inevitable. One solution would be to make the large carparks at Midleton and Carrigtwohill available to commuters, rather than continuing to price them out of use. But this will be inadequate in the long term.

Although off-topic, the continuing policy of charging for use of carparks in non-commercial locations, is counter productive to attracting commuters to rail. Gormanston, Co Meath, is a classic case. About six or ten motorists park in the official carpark, which has nearly two hundred spaces. Typically 18 - 20 park on the narrow approach road, to avoid the charges.
These carparks were provided at the expense of the Irish and EU taxpayers. Charging excessive fees to use them, meant they were a waste of money.

loyatemu

Isambard wrote: »

..and thinking laterally, developing Youghal as a Commuter dormitory might be it's salvation, it's never going to be a great tourist magnet again. I have my doubts tbh, but it might be prudent in this case to secure the alignment

it's 50km from Cork, it would be terrible planning to develop it as a commuter town. There's plenty of better places to build houses for Cork workers, Midleton for a start.

marno21

loyatemu wrote: »

it's 50km from Cork, it would be terrible planning to develop it as a commuter town. There's plenty of better places to build houses for Cork workers, Midleton for a start.

It's a similar distance as Drogheda is to Dublin, and Drogheda is getting a DART service.

The 50km is via the N25, the rail alignment is a few km shorter

Isambard

currently the plan is to build north of the City so Youghal is really long term as is further development of Midleton.

loyatemu

marno21 wrote: »

It's a similar distance as Drogheda is to Dublin, and Drogheda is getting a DART service.

Drogheda is already a suburb of Dublin and has an existing rail service. It's also the biggest town in the country with several other large towns between it and Malahide.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg scenario - you couldn't justify reopening the line to Youghal until it was much bigger and there was a lot of traffic going into Cork. But that would be a disaster in the meantime (and even afterwards as most people would continue to drive). Deliberately planning for an increase in commuting from Youghal to Cork is a plain bad idea.

Isambard

really what it boils down to is rail fans wanting to re-open a line for no better reason than it's there. A decent suburban system on the existing line to Mallow with extra stops would be a better investment.

whisky_galore

tabbey wrote: »

It would be crazy and criminal to abandon such a good alignment.

It might not reopen for ten or twenty years, but Iam sure it will be found necessary in the long term.

As road traffic on the N25 increases each year and has no additional capacity on the Lower Glanmire Road, the rail alternative becomes inevitable. One solution would be to make the large carparks at Midleton and Carrigtwohill available to commuters, rather than continuing to price them out of use. But this will be inadequate in the long term.

Although off-topic, the continuing policy of charging for use of carparks in non-commercial locations, is counter productive to attracting commuters to rail. Gormanston, Co Meath, is a classic case. About six or ten motorists park in the official carpark, which has nearly two hundred spaces. Typically 18 - 20 park on the narrow approach road, to avoid the charges.
These carparks were provided at the expense of the Irish and EU taxpayers. Charging excessive fees to use them, meant they were a waste of money.

IE have ceased car park charges on some of the cobh and midleton line stations.

whisky_galore

Isambard wrote: »

really what it boils down to is rail fans wanting to re-open a line for no better reason than it's there. A decent suburban system on the existing line to Mallow with extra stops would be a better investment.

And yummy mummies and MAMILs wanting a greenway for the very same reason. ..because it's there.

Itssoeasy

Isambard wrote: »

really what it boils down to is rail fans wanting to re-open a line for no better reason than it's there. A decent suburban system on the existing line to Mallow with extra stops would be a better investment.

Well they've opened it as far as Middleton and that's doing well as far as I could see.

marno21

100 people at a meeting on reopening the railway to Youghal on the 14th including Green Party's Eamon Ryan

https://soundcloud.com/opinionline96/2018-05-15-saving-the-lough-warnings-ignored-on-cervical-check-more

Discussion starts at 1:53:00 or so.

Del.Monte

That was some piece of bs.

First Eamonn Ryan leader of the party who were part of the government that axed the Waterford/Rosslare Strand line waffling about nothing, and then Tony Harper an ancient historian who had clearly never been on the Youghal line who thought there were no tunnels on the route. He did al least describe it as not a very exciting route for a greenway - it is indeed straight, flat and boring between Midleton and Youghal. However, it was comical for him to say that the people of Youghal would be worried about the economics of the route if reopened. Why on earth would they as it would be subsidised from Central government not the ratepayers. He then rambled off by saying that if somebody got a train in Youghal to Kent station they would have to change to some other form of transport to get to Ballincollig.....

Dear God, it's usually the pro-rail lobby who wheel out barely coherent people to front their cause...

Markcheese

Yes it's straight and flat between youghal and Midleton, but it's not boring.. The East cork countryside that it passes through is gorgeous...
Flat for cycle ways is perfect.. It doesn't pass through many towns but quite close to a number, and ends at the beach in youghal...
It wouldn't be beyond the bounds of imagination to link it to a coastal cycle way to dungarvan (especially if there was a boat across from youghal)...
There's a possibility of the line being reopened in 20 or 30 years.... It's be a waste not to use it till them...

whisky_galore

People on this radio piece are under the impression that rail line needs to pay for itself somehow, which doesn't really happen with public transport in this country anyway. I don't see why a historian has to be trotted out as an 'expert' either. I'm sure there are better and more well-informed people out there for commentary.

Think it either stands or falls on how badly Youghal people and their representatives want it back.

Isambard

whisky_galore wrote: »

People on this radio piece are under the impression that rail line needs to pay for itself somehow, which doesn't really happen with public transport in this country anyway. I don't see why a historian has to be trotted out as an 'expert' either. I'm sure there are better and more well-informed people out there for commentary.

Think it either stands or falls on how badly Youghal people and their representatives want it back.

only 100 people at the meeting rather suggests they aren't too bothered.

whisky_galore

Isambard wrote: »

only 100 people at the meeting rather suggests they aren't too bothered.

I think the caller who wanted the road improved instead of a railway is telling.

Youghal has a sense of apathy about the place. Peeling paint, dereliction and empty units but a seafront and historic buildings other towns would kill for.

Del.Monte

Isambard wrote: »

only 100 people at the meeting rather suggests they aren't too bothered.

The 'poor' turnout is hardly surprising given the amount of hot air about reopening the line over the decades. The local politicians and Cork planners are a disgrace.

Lord Glentoran

Markcheese wrote: »

Yes it's straight and flat between youghal and Midleton, but it's not boring.. The East cork countryside that it passes through is gorgeous...
Flat for cycle ways is perfect.. It doesn't pass through many towns but quite close to a number, and ends at the beach in youghal...
It wouldn't be beyond the bounds of imagination to link it to a coastal cycle way to dungarvan (especially if there was a boat across from youghal)...
There's a possibility of the line being reopened in 20 or 30 years.... It's be a waste not to use it till them...

So, if the cycle lobby gets Midleton to Youghal we'll have this happening then.

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

The 'poor' turnout is hardly surprising given the amount of hot air about reopening the line over the decades.

Sure, how could they get to the meeting, they have no train service!

A bit like the West Cork delegation who arrived in Kingsbridge (Heuston) to meet the CIE chairman (and prototype for Beeching), the great and good Dr CS Andrews, (grandfather of Ryan Tubridy anda few politicos). Their mission was to convince Andrews not to close their rail system in West Cork.

Andrews asked "did you enjoy your breakfast on the train?"

An eejit replied "No, we came up in the car!"

Game, set and match to Andrews.

end of the road

tabbey wrote: »

Sure, how could they get to the meeting, they have no train service!

A bit like the West Cork delegation who arrived in Kingsbridge (Heuston) to meet the CIE chairman (and prototype for Beeching), the great and good Dr CS Andrews, (grandfather of Ryan Tubridy anda few politicos). Their mission was to convince Andrews not to close their rail system in West Cork.

Andrews asked "did you enjoy your breakfast on the train?"

An eejit replied "No, we came up in the car!"

Game, set and match to Andrews.

i'd imagine sadly that if they came by train he'd still have closed it.

tabbey

end of the road wrote: »

i'd imagine sadly that if they came by train he'd still have closed it.

Undoubtedly!

But it is still amazing how some "supporters" will let the side down.

Losty Dublin

tabbey wrote: »

Sure, how could they get to the meeting, they have no train service!

A bit like the West Cork delegation who arrived in Kingsbridge (Heuston) to meet the CIE chairman (and prototype for Beeching), the great and good Dr CS Andrews, (grandfather of Ryan Tubridy anda few politicos). Their mission was to convince Andrews not to close their rail system in West Cork.

Andrews asked "did you enjoy your breakfast on the train?"

An eejit replied "No, we came up in the car!"

Game, set and match to Andrews.

Didn't happen quite like that but the sentiments were the same. He welcomed them in and asked for their tickets so he could upgrade them to first class for the trip home. It was then that one of them quipped that they drove up to Dublin; case dismissed.

tabbey

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Didn't happen quite like that but the sentiments were the same. He welcomed them in and asked for their tickets so he could upgrade them to first class for the trip home. It was then that one of them quipped that they drove up to Dublin; case dismissed.

The moral of the story, both versions, is that Andrews recognised the hypocrisy of people talking about a service, while not using it. Andrews exploited this semi-hypocrisy to disarm the delegation's argument.

Isambard

the point surely was the service wasn't suitable for anyone from west Cork wanting to travel to Dublin, It wasn't possible to do it in one day.

Frostybrew

tabbey wrote: »

The moral of the story, both versions, is that Andrews recognised the hypocrisy of people talking about a service, while not using it. Andrews exploited this semi-hypocrisy to disarm the delegation's argument.

This wasn't the full story though. It wasn't possible for the West Cork delegation to use the train, as the existing CIE service wasn't timetabled to allow the delegation to travel to or from Dublin on the same day.

Effectively, they would've had to leave West Cork on a Monday, stay over night Monday night in Dublin, attend the meeting on Tuesday; and depending on the duration of the meeting, possibly have to stay overnight in Dublin Tuesday night, and finally travel by train back to Cork on Wednesday.

It was a classic example of CIE deliberately running down a service by poor timetabling as a precursor to closing the line.

Improved road connections were promised but never materialised, and West Cork to this day has very poor transport links, as it can take up to three hours to reach parts of Beara Peninsula from the city.

The line would have been very valuable today with the explosion in tourism, coupled with the possibility of developing commuter towns in Bandon, Innishannon and Halfway.

Frostybrew

For Youghal, the best bet for opening the line would be to develop a new town and industrial zone in the Mogeely/Castlemartyr/Ladysbridge area in the longer term, with the potential to support 25,000 to 35,000 people and 10,000 to 15,000 jobs. This could be progressed in the 2030s when Midleton reaches it's target population of about 25,000. Killeagh could also be developed to a 10,000 sized town with Youghal having a similar increase.

This could tie in with full electrification and double tracking of the Cork to Midleton line, and the building of an M25 to Youghal.

It's important that the alignment is preserved until then. With the increase in population predicted over the next 30 years and the increased emphasis on the Cork Metropolitan Area, as counter balance to the Greater Dublin Area, the above is both feasible and necessary.

Isambard

As I've already pointed out, the plan is for Cork to expand northwards towards Blarney, and there already is a rail line there.

Frostybrew

Isambard wrote: »

As I've already pointed out, the plan is for Cork to expand northwards towards Blarney, and there already is a rail line there.

Yes, this will suffice for medium term growth up to 2030. Beyond 2030 the Youghal line could be developed in the manner I've outlined.

Isambard

too far out. The northern development is right on the city doorstep and already has it's rail line and a motorway in planning, there's loads of room out there for another Ballincollig. You may as well develop Macroom or Bandon as develop Youghal, it doesn't make sense to me, it's so far from the City

Losty Dublin

Isambard wrote: »

the point surely was the service wasn't suitable for anyone from west Cork wanting to travel to Dublin, It wasn't possible to do it in one day

Effectively, they would've had to leave West Cork on a Monday, stay over night Monday night in Dublin, attend the meeting on Tuesday; and depending on the duration of the meeting, possibly have to stay overnight in Dublin Tuesday night, and finally travel by train back to Cork on Wednesday.

Frostybrew wrote:

It was a classic example of CIE deliberately running down a service by poor timetabling as a precursor to closing the line.

In the 50's, CIE made use of a faster service from the 2600 railcars to increase the services on the West Cork from 2 to 3 return trains to Cork a day. Numbers of passengers decreased. They still could have driven to Cork or Mallow but they merely dotted the i of his point; the graves for these lines were dug by Ford and Leyland and Scannell.

Frostybrew

Isambard wrote: »

too far out. The northern development is right on the city doorstep and already has it's rail line and a motorway in planning, there's loads of room out there for another Ballincollig. You may as well develop Macroom or Bandon as develop Youghal, it doesn't make sense to me, it's so far from the City

It's the corridor that you develop, an extension of the existing Cork to Midleton corridor.

Too far? Youghal to Cork is only 45 mins by car on congested roads, much less for Killeagh and Mogeely. Thats's not a long commute by any measure. A fast electrified rail service would give similar times, possibly even better.

The topography is much more suitable for large scale development than north of the city, and the existing trackbed gives it the advantage over western expansion.

It's important that both Monard and Blarney are developed in the short to medium term, but further out the topography becomes difficult.

A reopened Midleton to Youghal and a new M25 offers many new and sustainable developmental and land use long term possibilities, and should not be discounted.

Isambard

I'm discounting it. Cork City Council are looking to expend the City Boundaries and any development will be within the new boundary. So many times on Boards it has been said that development needs to be concentrated on City's rather than encouraging greenfield development in commuter land. Development beyond Midleton seems a non-starter to me, developing Mallow or Mitchelstown would make more sense

Frostybrew

Isambard wrote: »

I'm discounting it. Cork City Council are looking to expend the City Boundaries and any development will be within the new boundary. So many times on Boards it has been said that development needs to be concentrated on City's rather than encouraging greenfield development in commuter land. Development beyond Midleton seems a non-starter to me, developing Mallow or Mitchelstown would make more sense

Mallow's being developed anyway with a projected population of 20,000 to 25,000 which caters for urban development in that area of the county. Mitchelstown's even further out than Youghal which contradicts you're earlier point about Youghal being too far. There's also zero chance of any rail being supplied to Mitchelstown which limits it's development capacity.

I agree that brownfield development is preferable, and must be encouraged, and will be encouraged if greenfield residential commuter sites have direct fast rail commuter access to locations such as the docklands and Tivoli (the two main candidates for brownfield development). The Youghal to Cork corridor is a perfect candidate for this requirement, as a person boarding a train will have direct access to these redeveloped employment areas via rail.

It also must be stated that concentrating greenfield development into a high density corridor will limit sprawl, especially one which has potential to develop mass urban rail transit and reduce reliance on car usage.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Isambard

Mitchelstown doesn't need rail, it has the M8 already and easy access in all directions by road. As a result it is effectively already closer to Cork than Youghal, not to mention it's links to Limerick and Waterford (and Dublin).

Mallow has rail and soon to have motorway, and is closer in than Youghal

Other towns that are nearer to Cork than Youghal include Bandon, Macroom and Fermoy, all of which look better bets to me.

I suspect you are just trying to justify re-opening the rail line for it's own sake.

BonnieSituation

Isambard wrote: »

Mitchelstown doesn't need rail, it has the M8 already and easy access in all directions by road. As a result it is effectively already closer to Cork than Youghal, not to mention it's links to Limerick and Waterford (and Dublin).

Mallow has rail and soon to have motorway, and is closer in than Youghal

Other towns that are nearer to Cork than Youghal include Bandon, Macroom and Fermoy, all of which look better bets to me.

I suspect you are just trying to justify re-opening the rail line for it's own sake.

Everywhere needs rail

Isambard

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Everywhere needs rail

That's good, can I propose the Newmarket branch line, 45 minutes by congested road to Cork so got to be up there with Youghal when it comes to re-opening