The End for Youghal?

hans aus dtschl

This all seems to be a bit of a thread derailment, if you'll pardon the pun.

I think we can break it down as follows:
Some people are opposed to the greenway going ahead. As is their right.
Local people are not very active in lobbying for a railway to Youghal.
IÉ have expressed no interest in reinstating Youghal.
The people who want the railway to be reinstated believe that Youghal will deteriorate further without it.
Did I miss anything?

Isambard

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

The priority for Youghal transit, as seen earlier.

well of course it is or part of it. The purpose of a Greenway is nothing to do with mass transit. It's a leisure facility.

Markcheese

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

The priority for Youghal transit, as seen earlier.

If the priority is youghal transit, a couple of coaches going back and forth on the n25 will sort that, ala the new Cobh express (apparently very busy) and that town has a rail link.

hans aus dtschl

Markcheese wrote: »

If the priority is youghal transit, a couple of coaches going back and forth on the n25 will sort that, ala the new Cobh express (apparently very busy) and that town has a rail link.

I was going to bring this up separately.
That Cobh bus is hitting the rail passenger numbers now. I've been told anecdotally by Cobh residents that cost is a big factor.

Del.Monte

Markcheese wrote: »

If the priority is youghal transit, a couple of coaches going back and forth on the n25 will sort that, ala the new Cobh express (apparently very busy) and that town has a rail link.

That argument could be applied to every rail route in the country outside of the Greater Dublin Area.

hans aus dtschl

If you're taking the long-term view, there will be a need for both a cycle and rail corridor from Cork to further East than Midleton. But I don't think rail to Youghal will precede a Mogeely/East-Midleton/Killeagh UEA. Much less chance again of it preceding the Midleton West/Waterrock UEA and Dunkettle P&R.

If you want to talk about feeder buses to Youghal as justification for the line, then start thinking about the feeder buses to Midleton first: the reason these don't happen is that bus companies want max fare so bring pax direct to Cork. So density on the line itself is a critical factor.

Midleton West/Waterrock UEA and Dunkettle P&R will improve profitability of the line and give IÉ some options but I still don't think they'll budge until the East Cork MD LAP includes density East of Midleton. If you want to see a Youghal line reopen then that's the route forward IMO. And it likely will be opposed by people arguing for that density to be closer to Cork.

None of the above is going to progress much in the next 10 years. And since the long term plan is both rail and cycle corridor, why not progress one of the two now while the money and political backing are available, instead of maintaining status quo with nobody benefiting?

All the above is just an opinion, obviously.

Isambard

Del.Monte wrote: »

That argument could be applied to every rail route in the country outside of the Greater Dublin Area.

except that they are already rail routes which makes a big difference.

Quackster

Lord Glentoran wrote: »

You want me to scan in every single ordnance survey map in the country? And post the massive posts on this thread?

Let me think about that.



No.

I simply want you to back up your claims with fact. 'Tis all.

Lord Glentoran

Quackster wrote: »

I simply want you to back up your claims with fact. 'Tis all.

I have. I’ve told you where to find the information. Do your own homework.

Another thing: Robert Macfarlane in The Old Ways asserts this. Page 13 if you need to see the source. I’m sure there are clever map people who can track these if the will to stay away from the low hanging fruit of disused Railways is there.

Many regions have their old ways, connecting place to place, leading over passes or round mountains, to church or chapel, river or sea. Not all of their histories are happy. In Ireland there are hundreds of miles of famine roads, built by the starving in the 1840s to connect nothing with nothing in return for very little, unmarked on any base maps.

We could reclaim these for public use, or destroy more Railways.

Isambard

the only railways being destroyed are derelict defunct ones. The Railways that matter are the ones that are in use, that people use and depend on and who deserve a better service.

Cork Trucker

Isambard wrote: »

the only railways being destroyed are derelict defunct ones. The Railways that matter are the ones that are in use, that people use and depend on and who deserve a better service.

Bar the tourist season I’ll never understand how Cobh still has trains when there’s a Cobh Connect bus service that is very successful

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

If the priority is youghal transit, a couple of coaches going back and forth on the n25 will sort that, ala the new Cobh express (apparently very busy) and that town has a rail link.

a couple of coaches going back and forward won't sort it.
not by a long shot.
they will just add to the congestion and be more space wasting road transport which we need to reduce as part of our climate emergency declaration.

Isambard wrote: »

the only railways being destroyed are derelict defunct ones. The Railways that matter are the ones that are in use, that people use and depend on and who deserve a better service.

the railways that matter are both the ones in use and the ones with potential for reopening which must be protected.

Isambard

well if you like, but then would not a line of some sort to Bandon or Macroom via Ballincollig be of more use than one from Midleton to Youghal?

Deciding the priorities is the difficult bit and the Youghal line comes well down the list imo

Itssoeasy

Isambard wrote: »

well if you like, but then would not a line of some sort to Bandon or Macroom via Ballincollig be of more use than one from Midleton to Youghal?

Deciding the priorities is the difficult bit and the Youghal line comes well down the list imo

Well on the bandon or macroom line you're over 50 years too late. Hindsight is a wonderful thing in fairness. I've no doubt that the powers that be would love to have the west cork railway as an asset to use now. The Midleton to youghal section is far far more viable, if not in the short then most definitely the long term given that Midleton is open and connected to the national network.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

road transport which we need to reduce as part of our climate emergency declaration.

Empty, heavy diesel railcars are far more likely to be stopped under those rules than modern buses.

Isambard

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Well on the bandon or macroom line you're over 50 years too late. Hindsight is a wonderful thing in fairness. I've no doubt that the powers that be would love to have the west cork railway as an asset to use now. The Midleton to youghal section is far far more viable, if not in the short then most definitely the long term given that Midleton is open and connected to the national network.

well you could say the same of Harcourt St or Broadstone and yet....

The Youghal line isn't more viable, it's just easier and cheaper.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

Empty, heavy diesel railcars are far more likely to be stopped under those rules than modern buses.

only if we have powers that be with old mindsets.
if we have ones with modern ones, the diesel railcars will be filled and if needing replacing, will be replaced by alternative power sources.

L1011

end of the road wrote: »

only if we have powers that be with old mindsets.
if we have ones with modern ones, the diesel railcars will be filled and if needing replacing, will be replaced by alternative power sources.

One bus will leave a 2 car railcar quite empty.

Lightly used railway lines are never more environmentally friendly than buses, particularly diesel. Clearly heavily used lines are, particularly electrified.

end of the road

L1011 wrote: »

One bus will leave a 2 car railcar quite empty.

not always. it may depend on the offerings of both.
even then in some cases the 1 bus replacing the 2 car unit may actually end up killing pt in the area or areas altogether.

L1011 wrote: »

Lightly used railway lines are never more environmentally friendly than buses, particularly diesel.

they actually probably are tbh when every possible factor is taken into account.
while a 2 car unit will use more fuel, fuel is only a tiny part in the whole running, and it's emissions are smaller compared to the bus over all, as while the bus itself will have smaller emissions, it generally gets caught in the traffic congestion and travels along with other traffic, so we nd up with collective pollution, via the collective smog/emissions.

L1011 wrote: »

Clearly heavily used lines are, particularly electrified.

of course. that will be a given.

ohographite

L1011 wrote: »

One bus will leave a 2 car railcar quite empty.

Lightly used railway lines are never more environmentally friendly than buses, particularly diesel. Clearly heavily used lines are, particularly electrified.

Are you suggesting that the Cobh line should be closed now that Cobh has buses(I would not agree with this idea)?

L1011

Cobh passenger figures aren't even vaguely light last time I checked.

Isambard

I suspect without knowing that the Cobh trains are quite popular for commuting given they follow a more direct route than the road and take you almost to the City centre regardless of congestion.

hans aus dtschl

Lads, the rail figures were released not long ago.

Cobh is still a great line and I suspect still very profitable, but usage from Cobh itself is dropping because of the bus competing with it. It is relatively expensive end to end, and that's a factor. Most of the cruise ships are met by fleets of buses which is another factor.

But that line's not going away any time soon. I don't think anyone's suggesting it is.

Again, this is all beside the point of the thread.
Which was to discuss whether the Midleton to Youghal greenway was the end of the Youghal line. And I still don't think it is.

Del.Monte

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Lads, the rail figures were released not long ago.

Cobh is still a great line and I suspect still very profitable, but usage from Cobh itself is dropping because of the bus competing with it. It is relatively expensive end to end, and that's a factor. Most of the cruise ships are met by fleets of buses which is another factor.

But that line's not going away any time soon. I don't think anyone's suggesting it is.

Again, this is all beside the point of the thread.
Which was to discuss whether the Midleton to Youghal greenway was the end of the Youghal line. And I still don't think it is.

Cobb line is profitable - pull the other one.

hans aus dtschl

Del.Monte wrote: »

Cobb line is profitable - pull the other one.

???
I just said I believe it is. That's what I wrote in my post. What did you read it as?

Wait, do you think it's not profitable?
If so, do you mean for the exchequer or for IÉ? It's one of IÉ's better performing routes. I'll happily agree that as far as the exchequer is concerned, pretty much nothing but DART is profitable: it's all subvented. So are the bus routes though. So is pretty much all public transport.

tabbey

Del.Monte wrote: »

Cobb line is profitable - pull the other one.

Exactly!
No railway is profitable, no road is profitable.

There are rare exceptions to this and every rule, the two toll bridges in Dublin come to mind.

hans aus dtschl

tabbey wrote: »

Exactly!
No railway is profitable, no road is profitable.

There are rare exceptions to this and every rule, the two toll bridges in Dublin come to mind.

If you mean for the exchequer they all have a cost-benefit ratio. And plenty of the PPP's are profitable for the companies that build. That's why they're progressed.
So going down the road of discussing the specific cost for every project is something of a waste of time. Discussing the relative cost is what's important.

Coming back to the Youghal line, the relative cost of reinstating the Youghal line is high, particularly in comparison with other Cork-area proposed rail projects.

Markcheese

ohographite wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the Cobh line should be closed now that Cobh has buses(I would not agree with this idea)?

Gawd no, but it says something when a town with a crap road in and out, but a modern 2line regular railservice, has a new unsubsidised bus service that's busy (on the same route as the train)

Markcheese

Isambard wrote: »

I suspect without knowing that the Cobh trains are quite popular for commuting given they follow a more direct route than the road and take you almost to the City centre regardless of congestion.

Its not a particularly high speed line, the route the train and road take are almost the same, the train wouldnt have traffic at tivoli to contend with, but the bus carries on to patricks quay.. (next to patricks bridge, so 10 mins walk further on than the train),

Isambard

the route is very different as the Train cuts the corner on the viaduct and the bus has to negotiate the bridge at Fota, not to mention the Dunkettle interchanges et al. The routes are chalk and cheese if you pardon the pun.

ExoPolitic

I used the 40 bus the other day between waterford and cork, and the amount of people boarding in youghal was insane, we spent at least 10 minutes at the stop so the driver could collect all the fares and issue tickets, and we left people behind. This was on a weekday at about 11am...

Markcheese

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I used the 40 bus the other day between waterford and cork, and the amount of people boarding in youghal was insane, we spent at least 10 minutes at the stop so the driver could collect all the fares and issue tickets, and we left people behind. This was on a weekday at about 11am...

So stick on more coaches..Or better yet, get the same crowd who are doing Cobh direct bus (without subsidy I think) onto the route..
If there's regular passenger numbers there it shouldn't be a problem..

Isambard

ExoPolitic wrote: »

I used the 40 bus the other day between waterford and cork, and the amount of people boarding in youghal was insane, we spent at least 10 minutes at the stop so the driver could collect all the fares and issue tickets, and we left people behind. This was on a weekday at about 11am...

I think you may overexaggerate , the bus capacity would be around 50, add ten people left behind and subtract however many were already on the bus and you don't get to an insane number. Not enough to justify spending 100 million or so on a rail line.

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

So stick on more coaches..Or better yet, get the same crowd who are doing Cobh direct bus (without subsidy I think) onto the route..
If there's regular passenger numbers there it shouldn't be a problem..

or reopen the line.
more coaches already adding to the congestion is a waste of everyone's time and as we can see over decades is not a viable transport solution for cities.
if operators like cobh connect wanted to operate to youghal, they would probably be doing it already.

Isambard wrote: »

I think you may overexaggerate , the bus capacity would be around 50, add ten people left behind and subtract however many were already on the bus and you don't get to an insane number. Not enough to justify spending 100 million or so on a rail line.

where are you getting 100000000 from? if it's where i think it is (ennis athenry) one line costing that amount does not equate to every reopening costing the same.
the bus capacity and the usage of bus services to youghal has to be irrelevant in terms of whether the line should or shouldn't reopen given they are both different markets and the characteristics in terms of the usage of both. the line reopening or not can only stand on it's own merrit.

Markcheese

end of the road wrote: »

or reopen the line.
more coaches already adding to the congestion is a waste of everyone's time and as we can see over decades is not a viable transport solution for cities.
if operators like cobh connect wanted to operate to youghal, they would probably be doing it already.



where are you getting 100000000 from? if it's where i think it is (ennis athenry) one line costing that amount does not equate to every reopening costing the same.
the bus capacity and the usage of bus services to youghal has to be irrelevant in terms of whether the line should or shouldn't reopen given they are both different markets and the characteristics in terms of the usage of both. the line reopening or not can only stand on it's own merrit.

If it could be built for 100 million I'd be amazed, largely single track? 3 stations, and about 18km of track, I don't know how many level crossings, a few extra train sets...
Its not that big a population in youghal, killagh and mogeely, and on the Cork side the connectivity isn't great... If there's a 100 million odd available for public transport in and around cork, brilliant, there's tons of worth while projects that'd benefit more people than reopening the old youghal line.

end of the road

Markcheese wrote: »

If it could be built for 100 million I'd be amazed, largely single track? 3 stations, and about 18km of track, I don't know how many level crossings, a few extra train sets...
Its not that big a population in youghal, killagh and mogeely, and on the Cork side the connectivity isn't great... If there's a 100 million odd available for public transport in and around cork, brilliant, there's tons of worth while projects that'd benefit more people than reopening the old youghal line.

ennis athenry is i believe a hell of a lot longer then 18 km so i would think reopening to youghal could be done for a lot less then 100000000.
new rolling stock is being bought anyway as the country as a whole is short of it so that wouldn't be a specific cost in terms of reopening the youghal line as the cork suburban is likely to receive the current diesels from the dublin suburban which add up to a lot more units. even if those diesels are split between cork and limerick there would still be a few more then currently as i would imagine it won't be a 50 50 split.

Isambard

100 million was a guess, however, it's some years since 103 million was spent on the WRC and that would cost more today, plus new lines have, I believe, to be electric, adding more cost . 103 Million is probably an under estimate

end of the road

Isambard wrote: »

100 million was a guess, however, it's some years since 103 million was spent on the WRC and that would cost more today, plus new lines have, I believe, to be electric, adding more cost . 103 Million is probably an under estimate

who has said that new lines have to be electric? i am aware that statement has been posted a few times on here but where has it come from?
unless there are plans for electrification of the network as a whole (unlikely) or at least, electrification within the area of any reopening that would ever be given the go ahead, then there are no reasons for such a blanket rule as you will just end up with an electrified island within a diesel area and diesels still running under the wires, or a micro electric fleet specifically to serve that 1 line.

ExoPolitic

Isambard wrote: »

I think you may overexaggerate , the bus capacity would be around 50, add ten people left behind and subtract however many were already on the bus and you don't get to an insane number. Not enough to justify spending 100 million or so on a rail line.

No, there was a loading on the coach before they joined of about 1/3rd full. I distinctly remember because it took so long!

Also there is Dublin Coach and BE plying this route, both unsubsidised, to who ever said about more coaches etc. It can do with more coaches, and the competition is there.

marno21

Cork County Council have tendered for clearance and fencing of the line between Midleton and Youghal stations.

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/154321/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/publictenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

ontheditch2

end of the road wrote: »

or reopen the line.
more coaches already adding to the congestion is a waste of everyone's time and as we can see over decades is not a viable transport solution for cities..

Really? I don't think you understand how public transport actually alleviates traffic problems and congestion. 1 extra coach an hour probably takes 20 cars off the road.