New Puppy Schedule

ericzeking

Hi there, first time poster in these parts.

We just got our new puppy last week and I would like to get some feedback on if we are doing it right as well as some advice on the grand plan. I have always had dogs growing up but they were always outdoor dogs and gundogs so this is a first time having and training a proper pet.

Ollie is a mini goldendoodle (8-9wks), he's a deadly little fella in fairness. First night was a bit rough for him sleeping in his crate in the kitchen but since he has been very good.
I work full time 5 days, and my wife works at most 3 full weekdays. Eventually we would like him to live outside during the day and come in, in the mornings before work and evenings (when my wife is not working, he can come and go as he pleases) but then sleep in a nice kennel. We have a reasonably sized semi d garden and it is enclosed with no escape routes.

Yesterday his schedule looked like this and this is more or less what I propose until he is independent enough to sleep outside.

He wakes at 6.30 and gives out a bit, we get up, my wife goes to work for 7 and I take him out to go to the loo (he's pretty good-not many accidents inside). We then spend some time in the garden 15-20 minutes, sniffing around played a bit of football in so far as he has an interest in football. He then comes in for his breakfast and a drink and some more relaxed play with toys and just some general attention. He started to tire out then so we go out for the loo again and I'll let him to his own devices for a bit in the kitchen (supervised). He then gets put in his crate for 8am and I head for work.
This is where it gets complicated, I can come home for lunch on the days my wife is working, (work is 15 mins away) to give him lunch and go to the loo but obviously that is a limited time, between travelling home and back I could probably spend 30mins at home, is this fair enough? (yesterday he seemed happy enough when I got back for lunch, he wasn't crying or barking when I listened before entering the house)
I was thinking just not to get him too wound up and he will go back into his crate easily enough...yesterday was a bit of an extended lunch as I maybe overdid the play and he was slow to settle.
So lets say I crate him again at 1.15pm, I get home from work around half 5...he has had no accidents in his crate, I'm working off a baseline that he can hold it for roughly 4 hours.
At half 5 then we go out to the garden for the loo, more sniffing and football, then dinner at 6. He will get all the attention in the world then for the evening, some play, training, in and out to the loo, he tends to try and go for another nap but I keep him up til 9pm, he goes to the loo before bed. Then I will come out at 10.30-11pm to take hime to the loo before I go to bed -last night he didn't even really want to go then.

I then set an alarm for 4am to get up and take him out to the loo, nice and calm, no messing.

He then gets up at 6.30 again.

At least that's the way it seems to have worked... I started the routine over the weekend as I was doing jobs in the house.

It is sustainable if I can control lunch time. What do people think?

How old does he have to be to get his house in the garden- he will still be coming in, I just hope not to have to come home at lunch to bring him to the loo in the long term and I don't want him to chew up the house while we are away so if he stays inside during the day, it's gonna be in the crate. Bear in mind he is only going to be alone 2-3 days of the week even when he does move to the garden.

Thanks for reading.

ShaShaBear

Firstly, you won't be able to keep a dog in a closed crate from 8 or 9 in the morning until 5. Absolutely not.
Secondly, I wouldn't advise ever moving a dog outside during the day if there is going to be no-one there. Just because you *think* a dog cannot get out simply does not make it so, and it certainly doesn't stop someone from simply walking in and taking him!
I don't know too much about poodles in general, but I imagine a cross-breed between two very active dogs will only lead to trouble if left unattended - you might be best considering a day-care or dog walker.

ericzeking

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Firstly, you won't be able to keep a dog in a closed crate from 8 or 9 in the morning until 5. Absolutely not.
Secondly, I wouldn't advise ever moving a dog outside during the day if there is going to be no-one there. Just because you *think* a dog cannot get out simply does not make it so, and it certainly doesn't stop someone from simply walking in and taking him!
I don't know too much about poodles in general, but I imagine a cross-breed between two very active dogs will only lead to trouble if left unattended - you might be best considering a day-care or dog walker.

Thanks for the reply. I never intend on him being in the crate for that length of time, as I mentioned I'm working off 4 hours as a max and that is for a max of 3 days per week. I've gone home for lunch and will continue to do so when my wife isn't there, although he wasn't all that happy when I was leaving today now (I was there for nearly an hour).

Cherry Blossom

Would you not consider a puppy pen instead of/in conjunction with the crate. Crates are intended for very short term use, a few hours a day in total. Your pup is going to grow to resent the crate. You are using it too much. Making it available to them with the door open is very different to being shut in it for hours at a time. They also need to be introduced to the idea of being closed in it very slowly.

ericzeking

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

Would you not consider a puppy pen instead of/in conjunction with the crate. Crates are intended for very short term use, a few hours a day in total. Your pup is going to grow to resent the crate. You are using it too much. Making it available to them with the door open is very different to being shut in it for hours at a time. They also need to be introduced to the idea of being closed in it very slowly.

Jayzus...so I am doing it wrong and I thought I was putting in a massive effort ....I read up and thought the crate was the best thing for house training....I need to research more so

My understanding was that if you gave them to big a space they would do their business in one corner.....

Knine

Cherry Blossom wrote: »

Would you not consider a puppy pen instead of/in conjunction with the crate. Crates are intended for very short term use, a few hours a day in total. Your pup is going to grow to resent the crate. You are using it too much. Making it available to them with the door open is very different to being shut in it for hours at a time. They also need to be introduced to the idea of being closed in it very slowly.

This, a puppy pen or a stair gate confining the puppy to one room

Cherry Blossom

The crate was great for night time for my terrier as she woke me at night when she needed out as she was in my room. it was no good for my second dog because he went first and then cried to get out. So I ditched it. I taught both dogs to go on command. lots of fuss when they did go. I also taught the younger dog to 'wait' when he started sniffing or circling. When he was told to wait he knew he'd be taken straight out and didn't need to dirty his house.

As a rule of thumb they need to go upon waking up, straight after play, 10 minutes after a drink and 30-45 minutes after food. Also take him out when you are at home every hour or two. Let him know going outside = good and he will ask to go out himself in no time.

aonb

OP sounds like you are really doing a great job!

+1 that you cant 'lock' him in the crate all day, albeit with breaks at lunchtime. The crates are great for training and a safe place for the dog, but with the door open. The crate is really handy if you need to contain your dog for a short time, for his, another dogs, a visitor, a childs safety etc. The crate with the gate open is where the dog will choose to go to sleep, chew a toy/bone etc.

Where is the crate? If you can put him in the kitchen or utility with the room doors closed, whats the worst he can do. If you are playing with him so well in the mornings, he will snooze until you come home at lunchtime. More play, lucky puppy, his lunch, then more snoozing til you come home in the evening. He'll need his food while this young, and he'll need to be let out to toilet, and just not being alone for the full day while he is this young. You will know when you can stop coming home at lunch time, but it wont be for a good while yet. Leave the radio on while he is alone - good for company and he wont be mad-alert to outside noises if its very silent in the house.

Just one comment I wanted to add here. I work with an animal rescue. If you knew the number of dogs being stolen out of back gardens you would never leave your dog out alone while there is no one home. I used to allow my dogs stay outside in the summer (completely enclosed garden) - I live in a very rural area. Given all the dog thefts I would NEVER leave them outside no matter how nice a day :mad:

DBB

The crate is a great housetraining tool op, no doubt about it. But it must never, ever be misused, and by putting such a youngster into it for 4 hours, then another 4 hours, I'm afraid to say you are misusing it I'm absolutely not trying to get on your case here, and I really admire that you've clearly done a lot of research, but (I hope) you won't find any advocates of crate training who'll tell you it's ok to leave a young pup locked in his crate for 2 x 4 hour sessions several days per week.
On the one hand, you're right that they may toilet in a corner of they're in a bigger area than the crate, but on the other hand, you're saying you got home after 4 hours and he hadn't toileted in the crate... at his age, I'm thinking he was bursting when you got home, and he could potentially have been getting quite distressed as he's clearly quite a naturally fastidious pup who'll hold it and hold it rather than pee on his bed. You've got away with it so far, but leaving an adult dog in a crate for 4 hours is a big ask... asking a 9 week old pup to do it is... well... it's too much to ask, it's a non-runner. A pup of his age should be given the opportunity to pee at least once per hour. He may need to poop every 2-3 hours. The crate is really only intended as a place to put pups for short durations when you can't supervise him, so that you have full control over where his bowel and bladder are at all times.
You'd be better off letting him toilet in the house, than to force him to hold it in for 4 hours. And this is do-able... you can set him up with a puppy litter tray in a playpen, or in a puppy-safe room with a baby gate on the door. A puppy litter tray is a tray with a sod of grass in it, to mimic your lawn within his pen. You can also use sand or soil. The ideal scenario is that you get him outside to toilet as much as you possibly can, but this is not at the expense of him undergoing duress for the sake of not peeing on your kitchen floor whilst you're out! The litter tray acts as a compromise between the two.

ericzeking

Ok....thanks for the contributions...I think I will go get a baby gate tomorrow and let him have the utility room even though it's still quite small and set up a tray for him. He's actually really good at asking to go to the toilet outside, the tray won't upset this good work?

Cherry Blossom

take the tray away when someone is home. the idea is that he gets used to going on grass/soil/whatever is in it. If the grass isn't there in the house he'll pick up quickly enough that there is lots of it outside.

DBB

ericzeking wrote: »

Ok....thanks for the contributions...I think I will go get a baby gate tomorrow and let him have the utility room even though it's still quite small and set up a tray for him. He's actually really good at asking to go to the toilet outside, the tray won't upset this good work?

Puppies develop a preference for the feel and smell of certain substrates upon which to toilet from a very early age. So, when we're housetraining pups, we're ultimately teaching them to go find the substrate they're most likely to prefer, eg grass, stones, concrete (the less splash-back the substrate causes, the more preferred it tends to be).
So, that means the process of asking to go out includes (1) seeking the preferred substrate, (2) seeking being rewarded by you for toileting, (3) seeking the reinforcement of the relief of getting to toilet... toileting is self-reinforcing for all animals). These 3 (and maybe more) combine to encourage the pup to "ask" to go outside, to the place where all 3 good things happen for him.
By providing a doggy litter tray, you're preserving this keenness to toilet on a preferred outdoor substrate, and the pup is self-reinforcing toileting on grass by simply emptying in the litter tray. The bit that's missing is you rewarding him. This is easily remedied by you rewarding him as often as you can when you are there. So, in this scenario, 1 out of the 3 elements is missing.

What's the alternative?
If locked in his crate, he is likely to become distressed, particularly if he needs to toilet (imagine he got a bit of a dodgy tum? Nightmare for him).
If he toilets in his crate, he's getting the self-reinforcement from the relief of toileting, but he's not getting to toilet on a preferred substrate, nor your praise. So, 2 out of the 3 elements are missing. You also have the danger that if he toilets a few times in his crate, then he may start to regard the crate as his toilet. Nightmare for you.
If he toilets on the floor inside, he's also missing 2 out of the 3 elements as above.

So, as I said above, the litter tray isn't perfect, but it's a good compromise between him being stuck for far too long in his crate, and him having free rein to toilet wherever he likes. In practice, I find that many pups don't toilet in the playpen either, but the point is that they can, if they need to, without wrecking the concept behind crate training.

tk123

Just on the crate/pen - be careful of their collar getting caught when you leave them unsupervised. This happened one time when puppy Lucy stood up tall inside the crate and her tag got caught in the bars so she was stuck(!) After that I switched to a smaller tag that wasn't going to get caught. We had an incident in the house were both dogs were terrified and bolted - Lucy was lost but had her collar on so somebody local called me and stayed with her - they always have either a collar or harness with ID on in the house after that(!)
Also don't go for a fabric/mesh pen - Lucy burst through ours gladiators style lol when she was small and excited that we were home - it literally had an X ripped in it lol!

Knine

I recommend not using a collar if using a puppy pen for the reason TK123 mentioned.

My terriers don't wear them at all due to the breeds nature & tendency to squeeze through small gaps. I only put them on when out walking.

ericzeking

Ollie is not having any of this collar business just yet!! I put it on for half an hour the other day and it annoyed him and he wouldn't let me put it on at all yesterday....small steps I suppose