Access (or the lack of it) to broadband in Ireland.

Permabear

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maudgonner

Permabear wrote: »

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Sure it is. But it's when you make statements like this:

Permabear wrote: »

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that you'll have people, like myself, come along and explain to you in quite annoyed terms why they 'think they can't function' with substandard internet service. (And even 3Mbps would be a dream for many people atm)

Buford T. Justice XIX

A a farmer in the SW of Ireland, broadband, or the lack of it is a huge issue. We currently have 6MB down and !.2 MB up on a 4G mobile network. I need broadband for registering calves, getting movement dockets, sending in information to the Dept of Agriculture, applying for schemes etc.

I get less than 1 MB down and virtually nothing up at weekends so any work that needs to be uploaded during the weekend requires me to drive 5 miles to the local village with the laptop and dongle and send/receive any emails or documents required.

A lot of farms and small business users in rural Ireland would have huge issues with access to broadband when it is faster to drive to the local town to rent a video than it would be to download over the internet.

It's not a human right but it is getting close to being a basic right to have decent broadband access to carry on any semblance of a normal functioning life in the 21st century .

BandMember

political analyst wrote: »

The following article was written by Brian O'Donohoe, the commercial director of broadband provider Imagine.

http://www.independent.ie/business/technology/national-broadband-plan-will-fail-those-in-our-country-areas-35229984.html



Why doesn't the Government reserve part of the wireless spectrum for small companies that currently provide a wireless internet service? Surely, squeezing them out would be an abuse of power.

Furthermore, why doesn't the Government use satellite transmission to increase access to broadband?

Howya Brian, didn't realise you were on Boards.

Why don't you take your whinging, deluded hokum and blatant lies over to Shelbyville - it's more their type of thing.... :cool:

ItHurtsWhenIP

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

A a farmer in the SW of Ireland, broadband, or the lack of it is a huge issue. We currently have 6MB down and !.2 MB up on a 4G mobile network. I need broadband for registering calves, getting movement dockets, sending in information to the Dept of Agriculture, applying for schemes etc.

I get less than 1 MB down and virtually nothing up at weekends so any work that needs to be uploaded during the weekend requires me to drive 5 miles to the local village with the laptop and dongle and send/receive any emails or documents required.

A lot of farms and small business users in rural Ireland would have huge issues with access to broadband when it is faster to drive to the local town to rent a video than it would be to download over the internet.

It's not a human right but it is getting close to being a basic right to have decent broadband access to carry on any semblance of a normal functioning life in the 21st century .

And this is one of the many reasons the Government needs to get proper broadband out to rural areas. Farmers are forced to to do virtually everything with respect to Dept Ag via the web. So good connectivity is vital for them.

Rural business (and this includes Farmers) have to deal with revenue via ROS - again an on-line only service. I met with a business owner 2 years ago who was taking a test case against revenue, because they were fining him €000's for continuing to use paper with them. His house is in some funky hollow that even the satellites can't see him. :eek: I don't know how he got on for a finish, but he's probably out of business by now, as revenue don't care. :mad:

Permabear

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ItHurtsWhenIP

Permabear wrote: »

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I won't do any dick wagging :rolleyes:. I operate a business (training/consultancy) from home on a 3Mbs/1Mbps Wireless connection. My OH is currently studying for a diploma and is doing so on that same connection.

We don't bother with the netflix things or any streaming like that. I am a patient person and I need to be, because everything takes so frickin long to do on this connection. I was kinda hoping that Three might upgrade to 4G masts around here, so I could use their AYCE data package and get better speeds, but some knob-jockey on the Imagine LTE thread fcuked that up for everybody now.

So yes it is possible to work on a <10Mbps connection, but it makes life difficult and I'm probably at a competitive disadvantage to a similar operation in the city.

Permabear

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wexfordman2

pilly wrote: »

I'm not arguing that it's not needed more and more today than ever. What I'm arguing is that it's not a basic human need. I don't have it at home and have managed even whilst I wasn't working. I went to the library to look for jobs, book stuff and print stuff.

There are people who don't have so much as a smart phone and they manage their day to living also. It is not a matter of survival is what I'm saying. Companies like to say that they will be paperless in so many years but in reality I think that's further away than we all think. We've been saying it probably since the 90s.

If a company wants to get paid and the customer doesn't have internet then they'll send a bill.

It would be lovely for everyone in the country to have broadband, again all I'm saying is it's not a matter of life and death.

Look, a lighbulb is not a necessity for survival either, you can get along perfectly well without it.

wexfordman2

I would still dearly love to know why the independent and the author chose to publish that article with no comments section to it.

Well, I think I know why, primarily because 99% of the article was hogwash and it's best not to let people point it out underneath the article.

legocrazy505

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I would still dearly love to know why the independent and the author chose to publish that article with no comments section to it.

Well, I think I know why, primarily because 99% of the article was hogwash and it's best not to let people point it out underneath the article.

It's clearly a paid advertisement too. Very poor journalism from the Independent.

BandMember

wexfordman2 wrote: »

I would still dearly love to know why the independent and the author chose to publish that article with no comments section to it.

Well, I think I know why, primarily because 99% of the article was hogwash and it's best not to let people point it out underneath the article.

The reason that there was no comments allowed is because it was a paid advertisement. Obviously, the Independent should have pointed that out but what do you expect from that (electronic) rag of a publication.... :rolleyes:

Edups2.0

pilly wrote: »

I don't live in a city, don't understand why people get all het up about these things. It's only my opinion. I've already stated I don't have broadband at home and manage quite well. It's not a human right is all I'm saying.

And I didn't say it was either. What I said was it's attitudes like that poster that leaves people and businesses struggling in modern Ireland because they don't seem bothered to help them. You took it as a human rights issue, foolishly so.

Edups2.0

legocrazy505 wrote: »

It's clearly a paid advertisement too. Very poor journalism from the Independent.

A published article does not a journalist make.

AllGunsBlazing

Remember in the early 00's when you couldn't even get flat rate dial up in this country for love nor money? (And thank you BT for jumping into the Irish market!)

Only six and a half years ago getting a 5mb line from UPC was a massive deal for me. I wouldnt cross the street for that kind of speed now - it'd be like having to swap out a big screen hd tv for a black and white portable.

pilly

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Look, a lighbulb is not a necessity for survival either, you can get along perfectly well without it.

And do you expect the government to provide light-bulbs to everyone in the country?

pilly

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

A a farmer in the SW of Ireland, broadband, or the lack of it is a huge issue. We currently have 6MB down and !.2 MB up on a 4G mobile network. I need broadband for registering calves, getting movement dockets, sending in information to the Dept of Agriculture, applying for schemes etc.

I get less than 1 MB down and virtually nothing up at weekends so any work that needs to be uploaded during the weekend requires me to drive 5 miles to the local village with the laptop and dongle and send/receive any emails or documents required.

A lot of farms and small business users in rural Ireland would have huge issues with access to broadband when it is faster to drive to the local town to rent a video than it would be to download over the internet.

It's not a human right but it is getting close to being a basic right to have decent broadband access to carry on any semblance of a normal functioning life in the 21st century .

This is probably the most reasoned argument I've heard for broadband across the country and I can see where that would be a big problem actually.

My initial point was in response to a poster who called me "disgusting" for having the view that it wasn't essential for survival.

I do still hold the view that it's not the biggest problem this country faces at the moment, homelessness is.

I also understand the frustration of having to drive somewhere to get business done as I have to go to my local library on the weekend to do anything requiring fast internet.

legocrazy505

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

Remember in the early 00's when you couldn't even get flat rate dial up in this country for love nor money? (And thank you BT for jumping into the Irish market!)

Only six and a half years ago getting a 5mb line from UPC was a massive deal for me. I wouldnt cross the street for that kind of speed now - it'd be like having to swap out a big screen hd tv for a black and white portable.

By contrast 6 and a half years ago we were told we'd "soon be able to get next-generation broadband!"

When we got it later that year, turns out "next-generation" was 0.40mbps down and 0.21mbps up

Then in 2013 we saw an improvement to a whole 0.9mbps down and still 0.21mbps up.

Last year with no help from Eir we discovered that by unplugging a sky box we could go from about 0.9mbps to a whole 1.7mbps down and 0.19 mbps up. No doing this did nothing until recently, only recently when we got a Sky+ HD box to replace an older Sky+ box.

Now we've been told consisentently when cold called by Eir that "fibre" is "just around the corner!" That we should expect an upgrade "very soon." Thing is the cabinet has been "in progress" for two years. Two ****ing years.

maudgonner

pilly wrote: »

I also understand the frustration of having to drive somewhere to get business done as I have to go to my local library on the weekend to do anything requiring fast internet.

Ironic that you were complaining earlier in the thread about the government paying for people to get internet, isn't it? :pac:

Edups2.0

pilly wrote: »

This is probably the most reasoned argument I've heard for broadband across the country and I can see where that would be a big problem actually.

My initial point was in response to a poster who called me "disgusting" for having the view that it wasn't essential for survival.

I do still hold the view that it's not the biggest problem this country faces at the moment, homelessness is.

I also understand the frustration of having to drive somewhere to get business done as I have to go to my local library on the weekend to do anything requiring fast internet.

I said attitudes like that are. They are the very reason our government don't do anything useful.

pilly

maudgonner wrote: »

Ironic that you were complaining earlier in the thread about the government paying for people to get internet, isn't it? :pac:

Not really no, a public library serves 1000's of people so makes sense for it to be provided there. What I was complaining about was the assertion that the government should run a cable to every single door in the country.

I don't expect them to do that for me when there are far greater problems going on is what I'm saying.

maudgonner

pilly wrote: »

Not really no, a public library serves 1000's of people so makes sense for it to be provided there. What I was complaining about was the assertion that the government should run a cable to every single door in the country.

I don't expect them to do that for me when there are far greater problems going on is what I'm saying.

You could go to an internet cafe and pay to use the internet.

Instead, you go to a library and use the facilities that have been paid for by the taxpayer. That's the irony.

Yes, there are people on trollies in hospitals and homeless people. But I'm really tired of the argument that we should sort out those problems before we do anything else in this country.

pilly

maudgonner wrote: »

You could go to an internet cafe and pay to use the internet.

Instead, you go to a library and use the facilities that have been paid for by the taxpayer. That's the irony.

Yes, there are people on trollies in hospitals and homeless people. But I'm really tired of the argument that we should sort out those problems before we do anything else in this country.

I am a taxpayer and I pay for services. Not ironic at all.

maudgonner

pilly wrote: »

I am a taxpayer and I pay for services. Not ironic at all.

And most rural people who would be advantaged by a decent broadband rollout are also taxpayers who pay for services. As are the many rural businesses who benefit from this.

Permabear

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pilly

Permabear wrote: »

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Thank god someone sees my point of view. I was beginning to wonder.

maudgonner

Permabear wrote: »

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I agree with you to a point. But using the term 'every far-flung farmer' is where the argument gets too simplistic. This isn't just about bringing fibre to houses that are so far flung they can't see their nearest neighbour. There are plenty of businesses and communities that have been completely neglected by commercial operators, and will continue to be without intervention. There needs to be some alternative if life in rural Ireland is going to be viable in a world where a decent standard of connectivity is increasingly vital. So unless you subscribe to the theory of 'fúck it, it's cheaper for everyone to live in cities, let them sell up and buy a house in Dublin', which is plainly ridiculous IMO, then what's the solution?

(And yes, the standard of broadband that's being proposed does exceed requirements in a lot of cases. That's a sensible approach when you're building infrastructure that's designed to be somewhat future-proof given that our usage is only going to increase over the coming years).

Permabear

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Edups2.0

Permabear wrote: »

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Supplying electricity via power lines was no doubt an expensive task to small areas or far out houses

Supplying water was

Should they have been told to light candles and build wells instead? Indeed it does save some tax payer money. But I suppose then again, when farmers can't do their jobs properly and there's no meat, milk and crops in the stores, we'd soon eat our words.

maudgonner

Permabear wrote: »

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I would disagree strongly that providing decent connectivity to rural towns is enough. There are businesses in every village in Ireland, and many in more rural locations than that. And there's massive growth potential for more - agribusiness and tourism are hugely important sectors for us. We should be encouraging people to work locally, work from home, start small businesses with low overheads - decent connectivity is vital for that.

Permabear

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Permabear

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maudgonner

Permabear wrote: »

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Off the top of my head I would say at a minimum laying fibre along all R roads and providing a means for people living on L roads to pay a reasonable fee to get connected to it*.

Areas that have been zoned industrial or granted planning permission for business use should also be included as a priority.

(*Huge caveat: I'm not a network engineer so I don't know what's possible or not possible. What's a reasonable amount? It would obviously depend on how far from the access point you are, and also whether neighbours could come together to lessen the cost. Spitballing, I think it would be reasonable for a new build to pay up to 5k for a connection that was future proof and reliable, but a reduced rate for existing houses might be appropriate).

Edups2.0

Permabear wrote: »

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I only buy Irish products. And if those labels are lies, well I'm gonna have me a nice big court case.

wexfordman2

Permabear wrote: »

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While that may be your view, would you say the same for an electricity service ?

Becuase the only difference is whether or not one takes the view that one or the other is or is not an essential service.

So the argument is, is bb now, or will it be in the future an essential service ?

To my mind, the answer to that is undoubtably yes! BB will be (if you cant take the view that it is already) an essential service in order to conduct your business, interact with the state and other services, for health, education and for communication and social needs.

pilly

Edups2.0 wrote: »

Supplying electricity via power lines was no doubt an expensive task to small areas or far out houses

Supplying water was

Should they have been told to light candles and build wells instead? Indeed it does save some tax payer money. But I suppose then again, when farmers can't do their jobs properly and there's no meat, milk and crops in the stores, we'd soon eat our words.

Once off houses have to pay to get electricity and water to their houses, it doesn't come free.

ED E

We shouldn't be providing anything to a certain cohort, we should be reversing 40yrs of terrible planning.

Jimmy builds house in the back arse of beyond.
We spend a fortune to connect him to the mains grid.
We spend a fortune to connect him to rural FTTH.
In future we spend a fortune to connect him to service x, service y, ambulance cover etc.

Stop throwing money at symptoms, fix the bloody problem. Reverse ribbon development. Not that one politician has the balls.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Permabear wrote: »

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Perhaps it would also make sense for urban dwellers to move closer to water and electricity supplies to save on piping and transmission costs from the areas they are produced in?

How about we get broadband and Dublin gets water?

Sounds fair to me.

pilly

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Perhaps it would also make sense for urban dwellers to move closer to water and electricity supplies to save on piping and transmission costs from the areas they are produced in?

How about we get broadband and Dublin gets water?

Sounds fair to me.

This is not a Dublin vs other counties issue, certainly not for me. I've lived in both Dublin and rural areas, currently in a very small village with no broadband and my life hasn't come to a standstill. If I'm honest I'm better off without it.

ItHurtsWhenIP

Also, don't forget for the NBP, the government is only paying 50% or less of the cost of the roll out. The successful bidder(s) pays the remainder (which they then presumably recover over the 25 year contract).

Also stringing fibre along poles is not massively more expensive than stringing copper along poles and actually if the USO for a copper pair to a house if it wants it were scrapped, Open Eir could start stripping the old lines off their poles and making shedloads of wedge from it.

I met Big Phil's broadband adviser a couple of years ago at a rural broadband event. He was saying that the EU want to ultimately classify broadband as a utility.

KyussBeeshop

I work at home programming, with extremely large projects containing a lot of art assets (base/empty project size 60GB, but work in progress projects are often 120GB+), and even with my current modern/fast Internet, it takes days to get the larger projects sync'd and setup for working.

This is easy in Dublin, but would be impossible in much of the rest of the country - so lack of proper broadband will definitely limit the availability/practicality of certain jobs, for people out in rural areas.

Proper broadband is already at the point where it provides enough of an improvement in the quality of life for people, and better access to many important services (increasingly becoming the primary method of access to some near-essential services), as well as providing an outlet for many types of work (very important in rural areas where unemployment has hit harder), that it is already beyond question that it is a cultural and economic net-benefit to the country, to have it universally rolled out.

That's not even in question at this stage - the capital cost of implementing the infrastructure, and future maintenance, is going to be far outpaced by the overall economic benefit brought by the service - the implementation of the infrastructure itself would even create much needed jobs, making it a win win situation in every aspect.

As said above, this is not a "Dublin vs rest of the country" issue - every nation state on earth, redistributes from the most economically productive areas, to help pay for improvements throughout the rest of the state - as it should be, and as it forever will be.

legocrazy505

KyussBeeshop wrote: »

As said above, this is not a "Dublin vs rest of the country" issue - every nation state on earth, redistributes from the most economically productive areas, to help pay for improvements throughout the rest of the state - as it should be, and as it forever will be.

You'll have a hard time convincing some people of that, just look at the previous discussions on this topic, it devolves into Dubliners claiming they shouldn't have to "subsidise" other people in the state a penny from their taxes and some rural people saying they'd "love" to see Dublin try to go on its own.

KyussBeeshop

It's just a minority of posters who are like that - they're louder online, but aren't representative of any major groups in the country - such views have almost zero representation politically, and stand no chance of ever having political success (about as likely as Dublin separating from Ireland, to form its own city state).

kelledy

I am an engineer for a well known Internet provider in the UK (scotland) and I am in the infrastructure side of things so do everything from laying the cables - connecting cabinets & blowing fibre .
I'm from Dublin and live here 4 years and have spent the time learning everything involved in the fibre rollout and its requirements .
Unfortunately Ireland's network is nowhere near capable of housing what is required , it's really an eye opener when you see the network of duct lines under the roads housing these cables , and if they are not maintained they become unusable .
Now in all my life living in Dublin I never remember seeing eircom engineers working or maintaining these duct lines or joint boxes , some of the cable manholes in UK are the size of your living room and if you don't look after these they fill with mud etc .
It seems to me with what I have learned , that ireland has hugely neglected there network which in the last 5 years has really bit them in the arse and are now playing catch up
.
I remember one job we done here not long after I moved here involved 16km of subduct and blown fibre run through existing duct prob 30+ years old through the highlands , all for 10 houses .
It took years to finish

My point is , expect to wait another good few years before rural Ireland is capable of providing decent internet , as there is a lot involved

pilly

kelledy wrote: »

I am an engineer for a well known Internet provider in the UK (scotland) and I am in the infrastructure side of things so do everything from laying the cables - connecting cabinets & blowing fibre .
I'm from Dublin and live here 4 years and have spent the time learning everything involved in the fibre rollout and its requirements .
Unfortunately Ireland's network is nowhere near capable of housing what is required , it's really an eye opener when you see the network of duct lines under the roads housing these cables , and if they are not maintained they become unusable .
Now in all my life living in Dublin I never remember seeing eircom engineers working or maintaining these duct lines or joint boxes , some of the cable manholes in UK are the size of your living room and if you don't look after these they fill with mud etc .
It seems to me with what I have learned , that ireland has hugely neglected there network which in the last 5 years has really bit them in the arse and are now playing catch up
.
I remember one job we done here not long after I moved here involved 16km of subduct and blown fibre run through existing duct prob 30+ years old through the highlands , all for 10 houses .
It took years to finish

My point is , expect to wait another good few years before rural Ireland is capable of providing decent internet , as there is a lot involved

Just as a matter of interest, how is the UK fixed in terms of broadband in rural areas? Genuine question.

wexfordman2

kelledy wrote: »

I am an engineer for a well known Internet provider in the UK (scotland) and I am in the infrastructure side of things so do everything from laying the cables - connecting cabinets & blowing fibre .
I'm from Dublin and live here 4 years and have spent the time learning everything involved in the fibre rollout and its requirements .
Unfortunately Ireland's network is nowhere near capable of housing what is required , it's really an eye opener when you see the network of duct lines under the roads housing these cables , and if they are not maintained they become unusable .
Now in all my life living in Dublin I never remember seeing eircom engineers working or maintaining these duct lines or joint boxes , some of the cable manholes in UK are the size of your living room and if you don't look after these they fill with mud etc .
It seems to me with what I have learned , that ireland has hugely neglected there network which in the last 5 years has really bit them in the arse and are now playing catch up
.
I remember one job we done here not long after I moved here involved 16km of subduct and blown fibre run through existing duct prob 30+ years old through the highlands , all for 10 houses .
It took years to finish

My point is , expect to wait another good few years before rural Ireland is capable of providing decent internet , as there is a lot involved

Not many ducts in rural Ireland though :-)

kelledy

Better get digging then

wexfordman2

kelledy wrote: »

Better get digging then

Or climbing :-) when you go low, we go high :-)

kelledy

wexfordman2 wrote: »

kelledy wrote: »

Better get digging then

Or climbing :-) when you go low, we go high :-)

Don't think you can pole erect fibre , not to the best of my knowledge
Fibre work points and joints way to big for poles .
Underground or nothing

FanadMan

kelledy wrote: »

Don't think you can pole erect fibre , not to the best of my knowledge
Fibre work points and joints way to big for poles .
Underground or nothing

Of course you can

http://www.secto.ie/index.php/services/aerial-fiber-wrapping