Where will Dublin's public transport be 10 years from now

Boulevardier

NTA + Rosser = Disaster.

ligerdub

I think a large part of the problem now is that so many people insist on driving to work when there is really no need for them to do so.

I can understand this for people going on the M50 as most of those places are not feasible via public transport from most towns near an exit on the M50, and hence it has become a pseudo-car-park. This is not an acceptable situation, and is made worse by the fact that Sandyford (one of the most significant towns of employment outside of Dublin city) is loaded with bottlenecks and unnecessary traffic lights. If they could square that circle it would make a huge difference......they won't though!

The Luas is a great facility for anyone lucky enough to live near a stop, but is just too slow, particularly around the city. South Dublin is the most well served place for PT out of anywhere in the country, Dart, Luas, excellent bus corridors, and decent motorways, so it seems a massive share of the resources has been granted to the most wealthy areas.......and they still drive in!

There are certain parts of Dublin where it's luck of the draw. I recall leaving from Dame St towards Terenure about a year ago, and it took around an hour.....a journey of only about 3 miles! I would have been quicker walking. I'd have found that very frustrating to do that every day. Mostly the problem seems more so about the traffic rather than the frequency of the journeys.

hytrogen

Zebra3 wrote:

Never a truer word said!!!

Baldonnel was looked at some years ago before they built T2. It's a good site too

Irish Steve

hytrogen wrote: »

Baldonnel was looked at some years ago before they built T2. It's a good site too

No, for a number of reasons, Baldonnel is a BAD site for a commercial airport. The approach to the main runway for normal winds is over highly populated areas, and there's no "safety zone" in the way that there are for Dublin Airport.

Baldonnel is OK for military use, and it would have been acceptable for business jet operations, but there is no way that it is a suitable alternative to Dublin, as there are also issues with the normal approach path to Dublin and Baldonnel both using the same airspace, so it's not possible to have a flight in instrument flying conditions making an approach to Dublin and another making an approach to Baldonnel at the same time.

Negative_G

Irish Steve wrote: »

as there are also issues with the normal approach path to Dublin and Baldonnel both using the same airspace, so it's not possible to have a flight in instrument flying conditions making an approach to Dublin and another making an approach to Baldonnel at the same time.

Not sure that bit is entirely true. I have often heard and seen IRL258 conducting a VOR/DME to 29 to Baldonnel while 28 is active.

fly_agaric

end of the road wrote: »

here are a couple of facts. facts that deal in reality rather then soundbites.

1. the us v them is only something perpetuated by politicians and believed by a small few to be representative of most people. it doesn't actually exist in reality for the vast majority of people.
2. most people are reasonable and are fine with dublin getting what it needs. all they ask for is not to be deprived and left behind, after all they pay taxes as well.
now i can't force you to believe the reality, but realistically if you actually thought about things more you would realise that your soundbites actually don't reflect reality for anyone bar the politicians who perpetuate the us v them nonsense and the small few who believe it to be representative of many or most when it isn't.

Suppose this is straying off topic but it is one of issues at the root of why there will be (imo) little progress in Dublin's public transport over the next decade.

I would like to believe what you wrote but it does raise the question of why many rural politicians (esp independents I would think) push that narrative?

Politicians are like sharks with blood when it comes to sniffing out a vote. There must be a decent number of preferences from somewhere in pushing out the old bullshíte your refer to about Dublin!

Irish Steve

VOR/DME to 29 is not the one I was thinking of, it's been a while since I was actively flying in the area, I think the issue used to be when 23 was being used at Baldonnel, and 28 at Dublin, which caused a conflct where the profiles crossed. Just looking at the (limited) information for Baldonnel, it would appear that the only ILS is on Runway 11, with nothing on either 29 or 23, which seems strange.

I suspect that the issues were with strong winds requiring 23 to be used, as 29 is the longer of the 2 runways. I do know it was a factor that got mentioned when Ryanair were trying to get the Government to open Baldonnel up to them, and given that it was back when Ryanair still had the 200's, the howls of protest would have been massive.

Idbatterim

some people may well prefer baldonnel, I would , flights to uk like the london airports and manchester etc could work from there, maybe edinburgh too and other very popular european destinations...

devnull

Indeed, lets build an airport there because the southsiders have to go ALL THE WAY to Dublin Airport and that cannot possibly be allowed because it's the result of a poor public transport system.

Meanwhile vast swathes of the northside have buses, buses and more buses and no other option, but the southside has everything apart from an airport so naturally an airport should come first.

Another airport should be way down the list of priorities.

Wanderer78

Privately owned, if the powers to be have their way

Idbatterim

the northside rail service is appalling, whos saying build a new airport?! baldonnel is already there. It would cut times to the airport and possibly reduce congestion, as many people wouldnt have to travel as far to get there or even have to get onto the m50 if coming up n7, n81, maybe even n4

devnull

Idbatterim wrote: »

the northside rail service is appalling, whos saying build a new airport?! baldonnel is already there. It would cut times to the airport and possibly reduce congestion, as many people wouldnt have to travel as far to get there or even have to get onto the m50 if coming up n7, n81, maybe even n4

It's way down the list if priorities, when we sort out the rest of the cities basic transport problems we can talk about another airport, but right now it shouldn't even be up for consideration because the money is better spent elsewhere.

There should be a focus on the parts of the city that cannot mean their basic transport needs and that is overwhelmingly on the north side, the south side should suck it up for a while like the North has to since forever.

Macy0161

ligerdub wrote: »

South Dublin is the most well served place for PT out of anywhere in the country, Dart, Luas, excellent bus corridors, and decent motorways, so it seems a massive share of the resources has been granted to the most wealthy areas.......and they still drive in!

Capacity is a massive issue on the South Dublin/ North Wicklow routes in though, despite being well served in terms of options. The N11/ Rock Road is often talked about as the prime route for congestion charging, but the buses and darts are full at peak times, despite the frequency.

As for where we'll be in 10 years, I'm not sure much will have changed. There's no one with the vision and the commitment to see the Dublin Commuter Belt as a National Issue. And that's why it keeps getting stalled, in favour of many local projects. It's not a Pale issue, it's the National transport issue. Better transport and journey times will help the regions too (if it's quicker too Dublin, it's quicker from Dublin). High Speed, dual line rail links to the current commuter towns could transform the state, and spread the wealth outwards. More than some regional rail line serving a handful of people would anyway.

Negative_G

Irish Steve wrote: »

VOR/DME to 29 is not the one I was thinking of, it's been a while since I was actively flying in the area, I think the issue used to be when 23 was being used at Baldonnel, and 28 at Dublin, which caused a conflct where the profiles crossed. Just looking at the (limited) information for Baldonnel, it would appear that the only ILS is on Runway 11, with nothing on either 29 or 23, which seems strange.

I suspect that the issues were with strong winds requiring 23 to be used, as 29 is the longer of the 2 runways. I do know it was a factor that got mentioned when Ryanair were trying to get the Government to open Baldonnel up to them, and given that it was back when Ryanair still had the 200's, the howls of protest would have been massive.

Rwy 11 is the only one with a precision approach, as you correctly said. Rwy 23 & 29 both have non precision VOR approaches. Rwy 05 is the only one without an instrument approach due to terrain and also the fact that it has no approach lighting system.

You are correct, a VOR to 23 will cause complications with Dublin as it takes aircraft directly through the approach for 28.

That said, in my opinion, there is no issue with conducting approaches to 29 at Baldonnel and 28 at Dublin.

Its a moot point as I suspect Baldonnel will never see any form of commercial ops. Bigger chance of it being sold and developed.

markpb

Idbatterim wrote: »

some people may well prefer baldonnel, I would , flights to uk like the london airports and manchester etc could work from there, maybe edinburgh too and other very popular european destinations...

Why would you want a second airport in Dublin? Getting from any part of GDA to Collinstown by car is relatively quick at most times of the day so Baldonnel is only going to be a few minutes shorter. Getting there by public transport varies depending on where you live but a new airport wouldn't be as well served so the trip would be harder. The number of carriers and flights serving the new airport would be poorer than the existing airport so you'd probably end up going there anyway.

Idbatterim

It's way down the list if priorities, when we sort out the rest of the cities basic transport problems we can talk about another airport, but right now it shouldn't even be up for consideration because the money is better spent elsewhere.

There should be a focus on the parts of the city that cannot mean their basic transport needs and that is overwhelmingly on the north side, the south side should suck it up for a while like the North has to since forever.

who said it is a priority and who is talking about another airport?! I am talking about if it is feasible with baldonnel? There is no way I would propose a new airport for Dublin. well I wouldnt have two tolls on the way to the airport for a start and at peak times, it could be a good bit quicker to get to baldonnel. Probably not a topic worth discussing any further.

The number of carriers and flights serving the new airport would be poorer than the existing airport so you'd probably end up going there anyway.

that being one of the reasons why Id never propose a NEW airport...

Also the north side has the port tunnel. I wrote to our bloody td's with disgust when MN was cancelled, that project is massive, not just for the northside, but for the entire city!!!

ligerdub

Macy0161 wrote: »

Capacity is a massive issue on the South Dublin/ North Wicklow routes in though, despite being well served in terms of options. The N11/ Rock Road is often talked about as the prime route for congestion charging, but the buses and darts are full at peak times, despite the frequency.

As for where we'll be in 10 years, I'm not sure much will have changed. There's no one with the vision and the commitment to see the Dublin Commuter Belt as a National Issue. And that's why it keeps getting stalled, in favour of many local projects. It's not a Pale issue, it's the National transport issue. Better transport and journey times will help the regions too (if it's quicker too Dublin, it's quicker from Dublin). High Speed, dual line rail links to the current commuter towns could transform the state, and spread the wealth outwards. More than some regional rail line serving a handful of people would anyway.

Fair points, tough to argue against, and I am trying

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

here are a couple of facts. facts that deal in reality rather then soundbites.

1. the us v them is only something perpetuated by politicians and believed by a small few to be representative of most people. it doesn't actually exist in reality for the vast majority of people.
2. most people are reasonable and are fine with dublin getting what it needs. all they ask for is not to be deprived and left behind, after all they pay taxes as well.
now i can't force you to believe the reality, but realistically if you actually thought about things more you would realise that your soundbites actually don't reflect reality for anyone bar the politicians who perpetuate the us v them nonsense and the small few who believe it to be representative of many or most when it isn't.

They are not facts, they are opinions and do not reflect reality in any way.

Politicians perpetuate nothing except what gets them elected. They don't invent issues. The issues are brought to them by constituents. That's reality.

These issues (and we are talking public transport here, so lets no confuse things) are then presented at national level. One of the biggest PT issues outside the Dublin area was the Western Rail Corridor. It should not have been such a big issue, but became one because of people who were not and never will be politicians. One of the first attacks they made against people who objected to reopening the rail line, involved remarks about "Dublin" not caring etc. etc.. I could go on all day about the reaction. This was then taken up by politicians. FACT! And an example of how it works that completely negates your point.

Politicians do not perpetuate any "us V them" nonsense. Its actually ordinary people who do it. Politicians react and the media react, hence the perception that its always the fault of politicians and the media, but it starts with actual people at a very local level. Do you honestly think the Healy Rae's in Kerry got elected by inventing a "us V them" mentality? No. They reacted to that mentality that came from their constituents.

Now if you actually want to talk about politicians and "Rural Ireland V Dublin", I'll happily entertain and educate you without any soundbites but with lots of facts.

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

They are not facts, they are opinions and do not reflect reality in any way.

Politicians perpetuate nothing except what gets them elected. They don't invent issues. The issues are brought to them by constituents. That's reality.

These issues (and we are talking public transport here, so lets no confuse things) are then presented at national level. One of the biggest PT issues outside the Dublin area was the Western Rail Corridor. It should not have been such a big issue, but became one because of people who were not and never will be politicians. One of the first attacks they made against people who objected to reopening the rail line, involved remarks about "Dublin" not caring etc. etc.. I could go on all day about the reaction. This was then taken up by politicians. FACT! And an example of how it works that completely negates your point.

Politicians do not perpetuate any "us V them" nonsense. Its actually ordinary people who do it. Politicians react and the media react, hence the perception that its always the fault of politicians and the media, but it starts with actual people at a very local level. Do you honestly think the Healy Rae's in Kerry got elected by inventing a "us V them" mentality? No. They reacted to that mentality that came from their constituents.

Now if you actually want to talk about politicians and "Rural Ireland V Dublin", I'll happily entertain and educate you without any soundbites but with lots of facts.

i don't need educating but thanks for the offer anyway. what i stated is correct. i never once stated politicians are all at fault, however the amount of people who subscribe to the us v them is so small and isn't representative of most.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

i don't need educating but thanks for the offer anyway. what i stated is correct. i never once stated politicians are all at fault, however the amount of people who subscribe to the us v them is so small and isn't representative of most.

Who mentioned "fault"?

What you stated is opinion and only correct in your mind. You did say that politicians perpetuate this view and I explained why.

Your view that only a small number subscribe to the alternative view and isn't representative, is yet more opinion. I've no problem with opinion, but don't call it fact unless you can back it up.

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

Who mentioned "fault"?

What you stated is opinion and only correct in your mind. You did say that politicians perpetuate this view and I explained why.

Your view that only a small number subscribe to the alternative view and isn't representative, is yet more opinion. I've no problem with opinion, but don't call it fact unless you can back it up.

i will call something what it is and i have done so here.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

it is fact from my experience. except it and move on.

State your experience of it then and please stop being disrespectful by telling me to accept it and move on.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

i will call something what it is and i have done so here.

Ah deleting posts again.:D

end of the road

Grandeeod wrote: »

Ah deleting posts again.

nope. you replied before i had a chance to finish the edit.

Grandeeod

end of the road wrote: »

nope. you replied before i had a chance to finish the edit.

Well reply to your original post that I quoted.

BuffyBot

I think "take it to PM" is the phrase I'm scrabbling about for right now..

Roadhawk

Maybe we might have something like this "super bus" china is working on. There is a lot online saying that its a scam and not going into production but at least they are being inventive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeBKsIAtz7E

Idbatterim

Literally when I see then new plans for MN and DU, during the observation period or meetings, I will genuinely ask them if leaving the projects might be more financially beneficial as teleportation will probably be an option before these morons are finished with either project...

V_Moth

I am kind of surprised nobody has mentioned global warming as a factor influencing transportation. Considering how quickly the Arctic is changing (some factors way ahead of predictions), who knows what the conditions will be like in 10 years?

Just as an example, most of the larger cities/towns are on the coast and would be vulnerable to flooding events.

jacksie66

This post has been deleted.

Sam Russell

jacksie66 wrote: »

Yeah but I doubt Limerick, Dublin or Cork will become Atlantis in 10 years time..

I think that 12 months ago, Cork was looking a bit like Atlantis, so you are 11 years out - it is already happening.

Floods do not only come from the sea, some come from the sky and torrential rain.

strandroad

jacksie66 wrote: »

Yeah but I doubt Limerick, Dublin or Cork will become Atlantis in 10 years time..

Consider the Dart in Booterstown

Wanderer78

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think that 12 months ago, Cork was looking a bit like Atlantis, so you are 11 years out - it is already happening.

Floods do not only come from the sea, some come from the sky and torrential rain.

and dont forget groundwater floods

maninasia

jacksie66 wrote: »

V_Moth wrote: »

I am kind of surprised nobody has mentioned global warming as a factor influencing transportation. Considering how quickly the Arctic is changing (some factors way ahead of predictions), who knows what the conditions will be like in 10 years?

Just as an example, most of the larger cities/towns are on the coast and would be vulnerable to flooding events.

Yeah but I doubt Limerick, Dublin or Cork will become Atlantis in 10 years time..

It's not completely off the wall (I mean accelerated flooding).

Recall that signs of climate change were supposed to sneak up on us slowly, now it's waving it's goolies in our faces.
In other parts of the world catastrophic flooding has already become far more common that predicted.