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Rachel McKinnon wins Worlds gold at UCI masters track cycling
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The testosterone limits / inhibitors are oddly reminiscent of the 50% haematocrit levels introduced in cycling, whereupon it became a target. If transgenders are required to peg back to a given limit, then should other athletes be allowed to boost their testosterone up to that limit?0
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Firstly, I would have to say that yes, this is a victory for equality. Someone had to be the first, it happened to be Jillian Bearden. Though for those saying that it opens the floodgates for womens sports to be dominated by transgender athletes, remember that it has been pointed out by Ford2600, that only 0.6% of the general population identify as transgender. That's 6 in 1000 people. The percentage of elite athletes who identify as transgender is going to be much lower, before we even consider male to female and female to male split (note, all the issues seem to be around male to female, not the other way round). Even if we work with the figure of 6 in 1000, that says that in those 1,000, 994 are cisgender female. By sheer numbers alone, the odds are in their favour.
On the subject of hormones. Lumen has already posted a link to a post which contains the rules to be followed, quoted here for ease of reference:303Cycling wrote:Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the female category under the following conditions of the IOC.
2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum of four years.
2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12 months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in women’s competition).
2.3. The athlete’s total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10 nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the female category.
2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition will be suspended for 12 months.
This is not a simple case of declare gender as female, take a bunch of anti androgens to dump the testosterone level, go on and crush the field. There is a lot more involved. Looking at 2.2, there is a MINIMUM of 12 months of low testosterone levels required, with the possibility on a case by case basis for longer. The body will have adapted quite an amount over this time, even from a normal male baseline. The further requirements on minimum of 4 years of solely female eligibility and the chance of a 12 month ban for not being very diligent in compliance means that you would need to be very serious about what you are doing to consider going through with this. To try and jump back and forth between categories would be folly, as would telling transgender athletes that they must compete as male. Doing so, psychologically would be very damaging - you are effectively denying their gender as legally declared - and physically would leave them as perpetual also rans - the decreased muscle mass and testosterone levels would leave them with no ability to compete against cisgender male athletes.
The case of a transgender athlete competing with an altered base of male physiology has also been brought up. Unfortunately, there is an absolute lack of data with which to base observations. This is a rare occurrence. Until more data is available, it is difficult to give a valid answer as to how much of a difference it makes. That also makes the process of setting rules very difficult. We can't currently say whether or not the rules, as currently set, are correct - but as they stand - the rules are the rules. If new data says that the rules should be changed one way or another, so be it, but you can't retroactively change results to suit a new set of rules.
Finally, the headline, as used by Sticky Bottle, is a travesty, used for the specific purpose of gaining clicks. It implies that Jillian Bearden is an imposter, a fraud - essentially a cheater. It is not her fault that she is who she is. To the best of our knowledge she has complied with all the required rules to compete as female (though we may never gain that knowledge - her medical records are rightly confidential between herself, her medical team, and where necessary, the relevant governing body), and to imply that she did what she did solely to "dominate" a womens cycling event is insulting, both to Bearden, and to transgender people as a whole.0 -
magicbastarder wrote: »one question which i'm curious about - how come this hasn't happened before now? surely there would have been other women with the same physical characteristics before now who would have completely dominated their sport?
It has happened, but it was within the world of American MMA so easily missed. If you look up Fallon Fox you'll see the big fall out over her dominance of the female MMA world. There was a film called Game Face in the Gaze film festival last year documenting her story, very interesting.
It is a complex issue.
Will there be a time when competition categories will no longer be broken down into the two basic fields of female/male?
Will competitors be placed into certain competing categories based on their similar biological make up, so being fe/male becomes irrelevant?
If so, to what enth would those categories go?0 -
Chris Mosier is a transgender (female to male) athlete competing for the US in men's duathlon.magicbastarder wrote: »one question which i'm curious about - how come this hasn't happened before now? surely there would have been other women with the same physical characteristics before now who would have completely dominated their sport?0 -
But why should identification trump everything else in this instance. At this present time, 'she' is by the only criteria available to go on, a man. I can identify as 6'3'' but it doesnt make it so. Until she has successfully undergone whatever is necessary to be biologically be classified as a woman, she should not be competing in women's events. No different to any individual sport where one person or more is cheating and the rest arent, imho.
I think we take it on good faith that someone is genuine about their gender identification, plus the cyclist, Bearden, is taking suppressive drugs to minimise the androgenic benefits. Of course if some guy rocks up to an event and says he identifies as female just to get in and try and win then that is wrong.
Jillian Bearden believes she is a woman and until such time that a method for allowing fairness between competing athletes is developed, she is allowed to compete in women's events while taking into account the rules outlined in a previous post. To deny her so would be an infringement on her human rights.0 -
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just for clarity, i was referring to the unusually higher testosterone/Y chromosome phenomenon; caster semenya is not the first woman with this genetic makeup, so i would have expected sportswomen in the past to have had a colossal advantage over their competitors. i was wondering if this had happened.Chris Mosier is a transgender (female to male) athlete competing for the US in men's duathlon.0 -
Believing you are a woman isn't the same thing as actually being a biological female.I think we take it on good faith that someone is genuine about their gender identification, plus the cyclist, Bearden, is taking suppressive drugs to minimise the androgenic benefits. Of course if some guy rocks up to an event and says he identifies as female just to get in and try and win then that is wrong.
Jillian Bearden believes she is a woman and until such time that a method for allowing fairness between competing athletes is developed, she is allowed to compete in women's events while taking into account the rules outlined in a previous post. To deny her so would be an infringement on her human rights.
I'm a fairly unfit beginner male cyclist in my 30s and already most of my times are faster than nearly all female cyclists on Strava.
Hormones are a crude measurement of sex anyway. It's a gross simplification of biology to state testosterone = male / oestrogen = female.
Controversial opinion: Transgender athletes should be able to compete, in a separate category in the Paralympics. Makes sense if we follow the line of thinking that transgenderism is actually a case of being born into the wrong body (seems like a pretty big physical disability) that cannot be fully cured/treated.
While this might be hailed as a great step for transgenderism* it certainly doesn't help in encouraging young girls to get involved in sport. A group that already suffers from poor participation rates for many reasons.
*Yes I can understand why some people are celebrating this, especially since transgender people are often portrayed badly in the media and suicide rates are shocking. Still there needs to be a recognition that self-identification/hormones and sometimes surgery cannot change your fundamental biological makeup. Learning to accept this is a saner alternative than convincing yourself and others that you are absolutely 100% female.0 -
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main concern with that idea is ghettoisation (if that's a word).Jimoslimos wrote: »Controversial opinion: Transgender athletes should be able to compete, in a separate category in the Paralympics. Makes sense if we follow the line of thinking that transgenderism is actually a case of being born into the wrong body (seems like a pretty big physical disability) that cannot be fully cured/treated.0 -
Jimoslimos wrote: »
Controversial opinion: Transgender athletes should be able to compete, in a separate category in the Paralympics.
Learning to accept this is a saner alternative than convincing yourself and others that you are absolutely 100% female.
There isn't a facepalm big enough...0 -
Are you suggesting that a 5 year old girl won't pick up a hurl because she's worried about competing against transgender athletes as an adult? LOLZ.Jimoslimos wrote: »it certainly doesn't help in encouraging young girls to get involved in sport. A group that already suffers from poor participation rates for many reasons.0 -
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just thinking out loud - there will be, like it or not, i'm 'just trying to be realistic' - a certain number of female athletes who will be put off competing if they feel there's unfair competition (regardless of whether or not you agree with their motives).Are you suggesting that a 5 year old girl won't pick up a hurl because she's worried about competing against transgender athletes as an adult? LOLZ.
this could lead to fewer female sportspeople as role models, which could theoretically have a knock on effect on bringing young girls into sports.0 -
robyntmorton wrote: »Firstly, I would have to say that yes, this is a victory for equality.
For equality of what particular group though? It's potentially another marker in the destruction of competive female sports as we currently know it, which would be a massive defeat for equality in that sphere.robyntmorton wrote: »Someone had to be the first, it happened to be Jillian Bearden. Though for those saying that it opens the floodgates for womens sports to be dominated by transgender athletes, remember that it has been pointed out by Ford2600, that only 0.6% of the general population identify as transgender. That's 6 in 1000 people. The percentage of elite athletes who identify as transgender is going to be much lower, before we even consider male to female and female to male split (note, all the issues seem to be around male to female, not the other way round). Even if we work with the figure of 6 in 1000, that says that in those 1,000, 994 are cisgender female. By sheer numbers alone, the odds are in their favour.
That's meaningless though. The whole point is if that tiny minority has, by virtue of the way the rules are currently written, a considerable competitive advantage over those not in that group, then they are likely to begin to dominate the top end of the sports. The small relative numbers will just make this even more stark. This has been perfectly illustrated in the case of the Olympic 800 meters.robyntmorton wrote: »On the subject of hormones. Lumen has already posted a link to a post which contains the rules to be followed, quoted here for ease of reference:
This is not a simple case of declare gender as female, take a bunch of anti androgens to dump the testosterone level, go on and crush the field. There is a lot more involved. Looking at 2.2, there is a MINIMUM of 12 months of low testosterone levels required, with the possibility on a case by case basis for longer. The body will have adapted quite an amount over this time, even from a normal male baseline. The further requirements on minimum of 4 years of solely female eligibility and the chance of a 12 month ban for not being very diligent in compliance means that you would need to be very serious about what you are doing to consider going through with this. To try and jump back and forth between categories would be folly, as would telling transgender athletes that they must compete as male. Doing so, psychologically would be very damaging - you are effectively denying their gender as legally declared - and physically would leave them as perpetual also rans - the decreased muscle mass and testosterone levels would leave them with no ability to compete against cisgender male athletes.
Hence my suggestion of an open category where absolutely everyone: male, female, and all possible points between, can compete without any chemical manipulation or psychological issues.
And your argument that transgender athletes would be at a physical disadvantage competing against male athletes is exactly the mirror argument to the disadvantages faced by female athletes competing against transgender athletes. You can't have it both ways.
Also, with PEDs like EPO huge gains are made because of the massive increase they allow in training load. These gains continue long after the PED abuse stops (Which is one very strong argument for lifetime bans for some PED offences). It's highly likely that at least some trans-gender (M->F) athletes will retain advantages from their time training with physical advantages of male hormones in a similar way.robyntmorton wrote: »The case of a transgender athlete competing with an altered base of male physiology has also been brought up. Unfortunately, there is an absolute lack of data with which to base observations. This is a rare occurrence. Until more data is available, it is difficult to give a valid answer as to how much of a difference it makes. That also makes the process of setting rules very difficult. We can't currently say whether or not the rules, as currently set, are correct - but as they stand - the rules are the rules. If new data says that the rules should be changed one way or another, so be it, but you can't retroactively change results to suit a new set of rules.
I'm certainly not talking about retroactively changing anything. I'm talking about the need to protect female competitive sport going forward, not retroactively changing results. In fact I think that's what everyone is trying to assess... what is the best way forward. Any talk of retroactive changes is a bit of a strawman arguement.robyntmorton wrote: »Finally, the headline, as used by Sticky Bottle, is a travesty, used for the specific purpose of gaining clicks. It implies that Jillian Bearden is an imposter, a fraud - essentially a cheater. It is not her fault that she is who she is. To the best of our knowledge she has complied with all the required rules to compete as female (though we may never gain that knowledge - her medical records are rightly confidential between herself, her medical team, and where necessary, the relevant governing body), and to imply that she did what she did solely to "dominate" a womens cycling event is insulting, both to Bearden, and to transgender people as a whole.
Again, strawman argument there, as far as the way this thread is developing. Nobody is blaming Jillian Bearden for anything. She competed withing the rules as they are currently written. It's the rules that are being questioned, not her.
However, I'd be extremely careful if your intention is to more broadly assert that no-one would try to win a female event unless they were 100% female. There are historical cases of 100% male athletes winning olympic medals in female events.
It's well known that a large number of elite competitive athletes would be prepared to shorten their lifespan considerably if they knew they could get the top as a result. Its not a huge leap to deliberatley re-assign gender to achieve similar results. It would be extremely nieve to dismiss this as not only possible, but highly likely if the rewards are there.
All of this is a massive threat to female sports, and has the potential to destroy it both as competive level sport at the top, and destroy female sport's commercial viability (in a very similar way to the PED threat).0 -
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random (supposed) fact - the only athlete who did not have to undergo gender verification at the 1976 olympics was princess anne.
two reasons; one obviously diplomatic, the other was that it was an easy decision as equestrian sports are one of the few disciplines where men and women compete on the same level, so the test is kinda redundant anyway.0 -
magicbastarder wrote: »just for clarity, i was referring to the unusually higher testosterone/Y chromosome phenomenon; caster semenya is not the first woman with this genetic makeup, so i would have expected sportswomen in the past to have had a colossal advantage over their competitors. i was wondering if this had happened.
800m running is a distance where the trade off works apparently - enough power to sprint harder but not so much remaining bulk to slow them down.
THis all came up after the Olympics, the rules on testosterone have changed, it was a massively high limit (for a woman) that castor and others had to get down to, it's since been thrown out and castor et al are now starting to win races again.
It's a tricky topic and something that will keep grabbing headlines as more transgender people start to compete.0 -
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magicbastarder wrote: »main concern with that idea is ghettoisation (if that's a word).
It's arguable that the Male - Female split is a form of ghettoisation already (As has been pointed out above, some sports don't have/need it). What's being debated is how to adapt the ghettoisation to adapt it to cope with originally unforseen edge cases.0 -
No, I'm suggesting that young girls entering puberty, with all the surrounding body issues, are more likely to drop out of sport. This isn't helped when the people they should be looking up to as role models and who they should be striving to emulate never went through this.Are you suggesting that a 5 year old girl won't pick up a hurl because she's worried about competing against transgender athletes as an adult? LOLZ.0 -
Getting to the stage that there might have to be separate transgender races and probably 2 to covers both male to female and female to male.
As seen by the current discussion that person was a cat 1 male cyclist and now a female, hardly fair on the fair ladies. There would I'd imagine be a huge difference in the
Testosterone levels between a female and a male to female person. It is after all a natural anabolic steroid.0 -
Not fair on the ladies that he's allowed race against them0
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There would I'd imagine be a huge difference in the
Testosterone levels between a female and a male to female person. It is after all a natural anabolic steroid.
And one could be fairly sure that medically qualified people have poured over the requirements for transgender athletes to compete in their chosen fields, as Lumen has already pointed out. TBH, this whole stickybottle article headline is a) clickbait, b distasteful as f*ck and c) prejudice looking for outrage.
Statistically, as as already been mentioned, the number of possible elite transgender athletes is going to be exceptionally small in an already exceptionally small group of people. Transgender folk make up a percentage of single digit population numbers. So straight off the bat, having a seperate category is up there with licence plates for cyclists; a solution looking for a problem. Secondly, it's an extrordinarily crass and - dare I say - cruel suggestion.
Why?
What it will do is force transgender people to have to openly declare themselves as being transgender just to compete at all, and consequently making them readily identifiable to any and all members of the public. As a group of people, they are arguable among the most marginalised and discriminated-against groups (if not the most) to be found in society. They receive prejudice from all quarters - including more than a few prominent feminists - and violent crime statistics for transgender people make for sobering reading beyond any and all notions of 'sobering' (something like [2014 USA] single digit percentage of LGBT population making up over 50% of violent crime victims and only about 4% of survivors for same).
So, we can either tell transgender people that we do not recognise them for who they are and/or tell them they cannot race unless they agree to openly paint a target on their backs (to the sum total of their lives should someone choose to cash in on that bullseye ... of which the odds are decidely higher than almost any other social group). Or we can leave this incredibly difficult conversation to people who are medically versed in human physiology and pharmacology to determine if a particular person has an unfair advantage over their respective gender field.0 -
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problem here is that i have no figures of current participation under current rules to go on; but the fact that the single datum point to hand is someone - from this extremely small cohort of potential competitors - is of a winner, does not help the argument.Statistically, as as already been mentioned, the number of possible elite transgender athletes is going to be exceptionally small in an already exceptionally small group of people. Transgender folk make up a percentage of single digit population numbers.
granted, it's a self selected datum point in that we wouldn't know of it if she had placed midway down the field, so the acid test will be if we see athletes from that cohort being proportionally represented in the results.
and we'd be left with trying to decide with what the reaction should be if they were over-represented. would we be left in a situation where the thresholds for testosterone, etc. would be massaged over a number of years until we did see proportional representation in the medals table? which would probably be the welcome goal.0 -
Well I'd be one of those, given that I have several years working in an endocrinology related field and many of my colleagues would feel the same. Still I won't labour the point as I might be accused of arguing from authority.So, we can either tell transgender people that we do not recognise them for who they are and/or tell them they cannot race unless they agree to openly paint a target on their backs (to the sum total of their lives should someone choose to cash in on that bullseye ... of which the odds are decidely higher than almost any other social group). Or we can leave this incredibly difficult conversation to people who are medically versed in human physiology and pharmacology to determine if a particular person has an unfair advantage over their respective gender field.
Nobody is saying they cannot race, they simply can't pick the sex (note: not gender) they want to compete against. Transgender women should still be allowed to compete in men's events and vice-versa transmen in women's events (assuming they are not on androgen therapy).
It's a massive therapeutic use exemption with zero justification.0 -
It has happened, but it was within the world of American MMA so easily missed. If you look up Fallon Fox you'll see the big fall out over her dominance of the female MMA world. There was a film called Game Face in the Gaze film festival last year documenting her story, very interesting.
It is a complex issue.
Will there be a time when competition categories will no longer be broken down into the two basic fields of female/male?
Will competitors be placed into certain competing categories based on their similar biological make up, so being fe/male becomes irrelevant?
If so, to what enth would those categories go?
Fallon Fox didn't dominate the female MMA world, she only had a 4-1 record and lost to the only person of note that she fought.0 -
magicbastarder wrote: »problem here is that i have no figures of current participation under current rules to go on; but the fact that the single datum point to hand is someone - from this extremely small cohort of potential competitors - is of a winner, does not help the argument.
granted, it's a self selected datum point in that we wouldn't know of it if she had placed midway down the field, so the acid test will be if we see athletes from that cohort being proportionally represented in the results.
and we'd be left with trying to decide with what the reaction should be if they were over-represented. would we be left in a situation where the thresholds for testosterone, etc. would be massaged over a number of years until we did see proportional representation in the medals table? which would probably be the welcome goal.
You're right; there isn't enough data. And that alone should give everyone considerable moment to pause and refelect on the matter. The only reason this is even being discussed (or clickbaited as the case may be) is because a single transgender person has won a race. In all the pro/elite races. Ever. Hardly 'barbarians at the gate' territory even on the most incredulous of days. And yet, a stickybottle journalist and editor felt the need to sensationalise that single victory. So why have we got people (on this thread no less) refusing to call Bearden by her identified gender? Why have we got people crying how it's all so brutally and shockingly unfair and how all transgender athletes should be forced to openly identify themselves.
Storm. Teacup. Captain Over-reaction cheerleading the pouring of said tea into said teacup. That's all this is at this moment in time.Jimoslimos wrote: »Nobody is saying they cannot race, they simply can't pick the sex (note: not gender) they want to compete against. Transgender women should still be allowed to compete in men's events and vice-versa transmen in women's events (assuming they are not on androgen therapy).
It's a massive therapeutic use exemption with zero justification.
So .... what you're saying is that we refuse to recognise their gender regardless of their satisfying sanctioned medical criteria and force them to publically state that they are transgender in order to compete.0 -
Recognise their gender? To what purpose? People should be free to live their lives as they wish as long as it doesn't impinge on others.So .... what you're saying is that we refuse to recognise their gender regardless of their satisfying sanctioned medical criteria and force them to publically state that they are transgender in order to compete.
I'm saying the biological criteria for competition should be by sex. Something that is easily verifiable.
Elite athletes already have to deal with increased scrutiny, drug-testing, invasion of privacy, etc. What is so special about transgenderism that it needs to be hidden?0 -
Jimoslimos wrote: »I'm a fairly unfit beginner male cyclist in my 30s and already most of my times are faster than nearly all female cyclists on Strava.
I seriously doubt it, unless you are doing routes that the decent girls cant be bothered with.0 -
robyntmorton wrote: »
Finally, the headline, as used by Sticky Bottle, is a travesty, used for the specific purpose of gaining clicks. It implies that Jillian Bearden is an imposter, a fraud - essentially a cheater. It is not her fault that she is who she is. To the best of our knowledge she has complied with all the required rules to compete as female (though we may never gain that knowledge - her medical records are rightly confidential between herself, her medical team, and where necessary, the relevant governing body), and to imply that she did what she did solely to "dominate" a womens cycling event is insulting, both to Bearden, and to transgender people as a whole.
Suggesting she shouldnt be competing and calling her a cheat are not mutally exclusive. I dont wish to deny anyone their human rights, but if she is biologically a man, and she is, then I dont think she should be competing. Sport has rules, and well defined categories otherwise it would be a free for all. Personally I believe that the rules around this should be stronger and it should not simply be a matter of taking certain medication etc as outlined in a previous post. Either you fulfill the biological criteria for your category or you dont. As someone else said, the testosterone levels will become a target, as the haematocrit levels did with epo.0 -
Not an expert here in either medicine or cycle racing, but I seem to remember that a man who is, say, 1 metre 70 is something like 3 times stronger than a woman who is 1m70, because of the different musculature and bone structure. This suggests that it's not fair for a man to be able to reassign himself to womanhood but keep all that natural-born strength, and compete against women who weren't born with it.
On the other hand, I suppose you could argue that it would be fairer - since everyone is on a scale of height, weight, musculature and so on - to stop dividing races and bouts and contests into classes for men and women, and instead divide them into a range of classes according to a mix of height, weight and musculature. Inevitably this would have more women at one end and more men at the other, but in the middle, there'd be crossover?0 -
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