Rachel McKinnon wins Worlds gold at UCI masters track cycling

oik

Good for him/her.

It's not men who are pushing the PC envelope further and further.

If women want to ruin their own sports they can go right ahead.

neris

Chuchote wrote: »

In some sports it's particularly crazy-seeming - I mean, women's sailing? How is a woman differently able to sail a boat?

have a look the volvo ocean race and you,ll see. some types of sailing require alot of physical strength and stamina. turning a 65foot+ grand prix race yacht in the middle of a blow at 20+ knots is no easy feat and require alot of muscle just to move the sails. Weight also plays a factor big time in sailing, While you mighnt want a 20 stone gorilla on the TDF you,ll want him on the side of a boat in a blow to help balance

Nermal

RiseToMe wrote: »

Easiest thing to do is for me to leave this link here

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/

"bone density and bone structure is irrelevant to determining athletic performance"

Just one of the many pieces of complete twaddle in this article. If you believe your body swimming in ten times the testosterone from the day your balls drop doesn't result in a skeleton more adapted to athletic performance, there's no hope for you. You're ignoring reality when it conflicts with your ideology.

Jimoslimos

RiseToMe wrote: »

Again not true, mft transgender women lose large amounts of muscle and have lower Testosterone levels then their cis counterparts so find it harder to build and maintain muscle.

There's a whole lot of of other stuff going on than simply testosterone levels.

Fake tits + hormones =/ female sex

Anyway have you seen the pictures of Fallon Fox - didn't look she had much difficulty building and maintaining muscle?

RiseToMe wrote: »

Easiest thing to do is for me to leave this link here

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/30/debunking_unfair_advantage_myths_about_trans_athletes_partner/

Which doesn't debunk or prove anything, just an uninformed opinion piece.

For those who reckon that the chances of this being abused are low, consider what many of the old Soviet and Eastern Bloc countries put their athletes through for national propaganda. They had absolutely no qualms about pumping female athletes full of androgenic steroids for gold medals.

Also what happens when a transgender athlete decides they want to compete/train without treatment? Can the IOC and other sports governing bodies decide that someone must be forced to take medically unnecessary treatments in order to compete as their recognised gender - because you know, that raises a whole load of legal and ethical issues.

rollingscone

Nermal wrote: »

"bone density and bone structure is irrelevant to determining athletic performance"

Just one of the many pieces of complete twaddle in this article. If you believe your body swimming in ten times the testosterone from the day your balls drop doesn't result in a skeleton more adapted to athletic performance, there's no hope for you. You're ignoring reality when it conflicts with your ideology.

Source?

terrydel

robyntmorton wrote: »

"I don't wish to deny anyone their human rights"
"I don't think she should be competing"
"Sport has rules, and well defined categories otherwise it would be a free for all"

Interesting things you have said there. Sport does indeed have rules, to stop it from being a free for all. I agree with you there. Jillian Bearden knew the rules, the event directors knew the rules, and under those rules she qualified to enter the competition that she did. She entered, she won. If she came fifth or sixth this conversation would not be happening.

The tie in between I don't wish to deny anyone their human rights, and I don't think she should be competing sounds very much like an exercise in Doublethink. Denying someone their human rights is bad, but it is alright to deny someone the right to compete as per their legal gender, in compliance with the rules set down. (Whether those rulles are correct or not is a different matter that will take a lot of time and data to figure out, and is a completely different side to the argument).

The final thing about testosterone levels, is that I came across an interesting article about Jillian Bearden this afternoon, which tells me that her testosterone levels are actually controlled at approximately half that of a cisgender female. The article also says how she has become friends with a lot of her competition. If it is easy enough to accept her for those on the inside, who have more to lose, why is it so difficult for those spectating on the outside?

Obviously though, a lot more research is required to be done. This is not an easy situation to be in, for those wanting to compete, those (potentially) in competition with them, and those overseeing each sport, who have to make and amend the rules to suit the knowledge that is there at the time, possibly making or breaking someone's dream. It is an emotive subject, and it is easy to get into spirited, occasionally heated debate, but none of us here are truly expert on the subject. If we were, we would be working with IOC/UCI/WADA/IAAF et al. on the subject, and not be here on boards arguing about it.

Why are you putting my comments in quotes? Comes across as extremely condescending.
I believe she is at a distinct and unfair advantage given her biological makeup, which I think is a fairly reasonable assumption to make. I feel the rules are wrong as they currently are, because they are very simplistic, based on testosterone level and nothing more. So its no different for me than male cyclists having haematocrit levels right on the threshold, which became a target for the cheats back in the crazy epo days.
For me its a sporting fairness issue and the fact it centres on gender has nothing to do with it.
I believe this is an area where the rules and governance are playing catchup, and not fit for purpose essentially. She has in my opinion essentially found a loophole and taken advantage of it.
Its so easy to start accusing people of discrimination on this subject, and I think you are veering dangerously close to that. Apologies if wrong, but thats how it appears.

midnight city

This isn't going to be an issue for men's sports really but it could be a big issue for woman's sports.

magicbastarder

Transgender woman wins gold at UCI World Champs; dismisses “bigots”

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/transgender-cyclist-rachel-mckinnon/

c montgomery

Absolutely ridiculous!
Trans have no business in women's sport, they have too big of an advantage.

recedite

robyntmorton wrote: »

In all fairness,she was 25 minutes behind the men's winner, and 1 second ahead of women's second place, Anna Sparks, with both 22 minutes ahead of third. If it's not a level playing field, what does that say about Anna?

It shows he was never any good in a fair race.

magicbastarder wrote: »

one question which i'm curious about - how come this hasn't happened before now? surely there would have been other women with the same physical characteristics before now who would have completely dominated their sport?

There's a brand new way to cheat uncovered every year

Jimoslimos wrote: »

Recognise their gender? To what purpose? People should be free to live their lives as they wish as long as it doesn't impinge on others...

Well said.

drunkmonkey

The whole thing is fecked, just look at who won Miss Spain a few days ago.

Lemming

c montgomery wrote: »

Absolutely ridiculous!
Trans have no business in women's sport, they have too big of an advantage.

I presume that you have the medical qualifications to back that assertion up?

... Presumably qualifications that haven't been found down the back of the sofa at that.

RobFowl

This in some way reminds me of the "athletes" who feigned illness or physical disability to compete at paralympic events.
There are athletes who will do anything to win and the present rules on entry requirements leave womens sport at risk of a significant degree if not wholesale cheating.
This is in some ways a Pandora's box that has been opened and we have yet to fully grasp exactly what it means.

0cp71eyxkb94qf

This post has been deleted.

I would defend anyone's right to identify as what ever gender they wish not that I would claim to understand it or ever will most likely but who am I to judge, there is something however about competing in sport that doesn't sit right with me. Unless some one can say it's without doubt a level playing field and here is proof I'll remain to be uncomfortable with it.

Have there been any trans contact sport competitors? I'd imagine thats a line yet to be crossed.

drunkmonkey

Fallon Fox has knocked the crap out of a few girls. Joe Rogan is worth a listen about her.

ED E

Deleted User wrote: »

Have there been any trans contact sport competitors? I'd imagine thats a line yet to be crossed.

Already been there. Trans MMA fighter bating the sh1te outta opponents. More than normal like.

wexie

Deleted User wrote: »

Have there been any trans contact sport competitors? I'd imagine thats a line yet to be crossed.

nope, been done

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallon_Fox

Hurrache

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The whole thing is fecked, just look at who won Miss Spain a few days ago.

Understandable, she's pretty attractive.

Hurrache

I did read about it at the time and have I been mulling over it. It's a big tin of physiological worms. What gives men a physiological advantage over women, testosterone? Or is it more than that?

Taking testosterone, when did he transition, i.e. how long had he been taking hormone surpressents, and does the body still produce it?

drunkmonkey

Men have a muscle power advantage but women have a weight one.

screamer

Maybe men competing in women's sports should be given some sort of handicap or similar to try and level the playing field. Whatever someone identified as is fine, but biologically this is a man not a woman.... Women's sports are already eclipsed by the male versions without the males now coming in with their biological advantages to compete with women....

recedite

Hurrache wrote: »

Taking testosterone, when did he transition, i.e. how long had he been taking hormone surpressents, and does the body still produce it?

He hasn't even bothered to have the surgery, so still a dick.
Probably taking something to reduce testosterone. But then testosterone levels are quite variable in men anyway.
But hey, he feels like a woman, and that makes him feel like a race winner.

drunkmonkey

We've done away with biology in this country. You can be male or female it's up to you. Once you do that you can't discriminate by adding handycaps etc.

Canis Lupus

Hurrache wrote: »

I did read about it at the time and have I been mulling over it. It's a big tin of physiological worms. What gives men a physiological advantage over women, testosterone? Or is it more than that?

Taking testosterone, when did he transition, i.e. how long had he been taking hormone surpressents, and does the body still produce it?

For me I guess I'd like to know what happens to the body once it's suppressed. How long does it take to get to a point where you can say having used EDIT had test in the past no longer has any bearing on your current performance if we assume training/effort stays the same. Does bone denity decrease? I dunno, bone structure? Blood volume? Does that matter for the relevant sport? Is the fact that you're likely larger than your competitors in terms of skeleton matter?

My personal gut instinct says it's likely unfair on the women competitors. I did chuckle at her latest tweet though: 'I'm an internationally recognized expert on the science and ethics of transgender inclusion in sport.' So basically it's totally cool guys, I'm an 'expert' and I say my winning the championship is completely fine. It's like Lance saying he's a doping expert and his wins were totally legit :P

Anyway, I think it's such a grey area.... should transpeople be banned from the top levels of sport/doing the things they love....

c montgomery

Lemming wrote: »

I presume that you have the medical qualifications to back that assertion up?

... Presumably qualifications that haven't been found down the back of the sofa at that.

Don't need to be a meteorologist to know when it's raining, same applies here.

Danzy

RiseToMe wrote: »

It's not Testosterone suppression, it's removal of Testosterone from the body almost entirely.

More to strength than muscle. Bone and sinew.

The Irish female deadlife record for 84kg+ is 175kgs.

It is a massive weight, I've done it and some and do not go to the gym regularly.

If I trained for a year I'm certain is deadlift over 300 kg and that would not b e an aggressive target.

While I've not trained much I'm used to hard graft and heavy lifting and have been since a child.

I'm no muscle bound gym head cause I've it built in after years of it.

I'm 40 and with next to no training I could crack at the Irish women's 84kg deadlift title.

With 3 months going to gym three times a week I'd blow it out of the water.

Taking on people who are dedicated athletes with years of discipline and commitment I could never match.

c montgomery

He should have just identified as a world champion, saved everyone the hassle and let the racing to biological women.

Danzy

Canis Lupus wrote: »

For me I guess I'd like to know what happens to the body once it's suppressed. How long does it take to get to a point where you can say having used test in the past no longer has any bearing on your current performance if we assume training/effort stays the same. Does bone denity decrease? I dunno, bone structure? Blood volume? Does that matter for the relevant sport? Is the fact that you're likely larger than your competitors in terms of skeleton matter?

My personal gut instinct says it's likely unfair on the women competitors. I did chuckle at her latest tweet though: 'I'm an internationally recognized expert on the science and ethics of transgender inclusion in sport.' So basically it's totally cool guys, I'm an 'expert' and I say my winning the championship is completely fine. It's like Lance saying he's a doping expert and his wins were totally legit :P

Anyway, I think it's such a grey area.... should transpeople be banned from the top levels of sport/doing the things they love....

Heart size takes years to decrease and still is larger years after training, same with lung vol.

Muscle can leave but once t there muscle returns quicker even years later never mind muscle memory.

This is as controversial scientifically as saying the earth revolves around the sun.

TheBoyConor

I think this is an absolute farce and something that poses are danger to *women's* sports. It could seriously demotivate genuine female athletes if they begin to think "sure what's the point going through all this training and effort if a trans "woman" can come in with a significantly more muscle mass and aerobic capacity and beat us all.

Even after full gender reassignment surgery the trans "woman" will still likely have bigger bones, bigger muscles and bigger lungs and heart than a real woman.

It really isn't fair or a level playing field and I feel it makes a mockery out of women's sports.