Cycling Infrastructure and Safety

ED E

Chuchote wrote: »

Stephen, behaviour isn't going to change - the only thing that will change it is infrastructure. The number of people commuting by bike into Dublin city centre has doubled in something like two years, and will double again and again faster. And drivers are being whipped up by the Two Minutes Hate of various radio jocks. Infrastructural change - good, roomy, protected cycleways - is the only thing that's going to solve this.

Pointless.

We've 100's of KMs of cycle track in the Dublin area, some good, some terrible, but its difficult to find any stretch that hasn't got somebody parking in it.

We need enforcement on our roads for all users. We can have byelaws and SIs out our ears but nothing will change until we actually see enforcement.

Wishbone Ash

Chuchote wrote: »

... Transport and Sport is an insane combination of duties.

Transport, Tourism and Sport.

Chuchote

ED E wrote: »

Pointless.

We've 100's of KMs of cycle track in the Dublin area, some good, some terrible, but its difficult to find any stretch that hasn't got somebody parking in it.

We need enforcement on our roads for all users. We can have byelaws and SIs out our ears but nothing will change until we actually see enforcement.

No. We have painted streaks on many roads, but they're not what we're talking about here. What we're talking about is what they have in

• Vancouver https://vimeo.com/183441272
• Copenhagen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtX8qiC_rXE
• New York https://www.ted.com/talks/janette_sadik_khan_new_york_s_streets_not_so_mean_any_more?language=en#t-229446

and other cities - separate cycleways protected by barriers so the drivers can't get at you, and with nice surfaces (cheap to maintain, since only used for cycling) and clear and sensible junctions.

kirving

From cycling on Dublin's southside mostly, enforcement of parking is by far the stand out issue for me.

There's also an element of infrastructure, but the most important is education I believe.

Not saying this is related to this particular case, but, there is absolutely no way I would ever cycle up the left of a truck, and if I find myself alongside a truck or bus, I slow immediately and let it pass.

I often have to collect things from a warehouse near my office. When a truck is moving nearby, I stop, stand still, and make sure to make eye contact with the driver, and I stay in place until he's either stopped or gone. Not to bring up the whole 'builder jacket' debate here, but the Safe Pass course is extremely worthwhile doing, even if you never intend to step foot on a building site.

Chuchote

Kevin Irving wrote: »

From cycling on Dublin's southside mostly, enforcement of parking is by far the stand out issue for me.

There's also an element of infrastructure, but the most important is education I believe.

Not saying this is related to this particular case, but, there is absolutely no way I would ever cycle up the left of a truck, and if I find myself alongside a truck or bus, I slow immediately and let it pass.

I often have to collect things from a warehouse near my office. When a truck is moving nearby, I stop, stand still, and make sure to make eye contact with the driver, and I stay in place until he's either stopped or gone. Not to bring up the whole 'builder jacket' debate here, but the Safe Pass course is extremely worthwhile doing, even if you never intend to step foot on a building site.

Mmmmyeah… however, I was nipping from one safe cycle lane to another near Roly's Bistrot the other day when a giant builder's truck came around the corner. I was trapped in the right-hand turn lane, about to go into Beatty's Cottages, I think it's called, and I turned and stared up the 10 feet into the cab, trying to catch the driver's eye. He didn't see me, although I was dressed in the lurid, multi-fluorescent hi-viz gilet I normally wear. He was gazing into space and chewing gum. He drove up beside me.

I got away, luckily, by diving across the road in front of an advancing wall of cars (safer, I thought, than staying near a giant truck whose driver couldn't see me).

Unknown Soldier

eeguy wrote: »

You can't see the indicators if you're alongside the truck, or they'll do the typical thing of indicating as they make the turn

Please don't do that

I know of one boards.ie user who is dead due to going up the inside of a lorry. Left behind a young family. Made a post here about 12:30 one day and was dead before 6PM

Never go up the inside of a lorry/bus etc, unless it is an extremely long, straight and stationary line of traffic with no left turns.

Safety first, always.

magicbastarder

how long ago did that happen?

Annie get your Run

On the whole behavior issue we managed to change attitudes to drink driving, it took a while but it's completely unacceptable now. It can be done but it needs the backing of every government department & relevant agency's, the gardai, the likes of the AA etc.

Unknown Soldier

Annie get your Run wrote: »

On the whole behavior issue we managed to change attitudes to drink driving, it took a while but it's completely unacceptable now. It can be done but it needs the backing of every government department & relevant agency's, the gardai, the likes of the AA etc.

We have the ability, we don't want to use it.

Next year is 2017.

For something as simple as Traffic laws etc we need to invest in HD cameras and change the laws to suit.

We live in a country that still allows cars to use bus lanes, bar when there is a "human" law enforcer there.

In Scotland there are Cameras on certain motorways sections and if you get to a certain point too "soon", then they calculate that you did that by speeding. Fine issued.

But with something like drink driving, well... sure you know how it is.

That's pretty much how we roll.

Corca Baiscinn

That's true re drink driving, also re smoking ban and plastic bags and smokeless fuel to a great extent but all backed up by legislation and enforcement. Think approach has to be multi-pronged. Definitely infrastructure too.

Chuchote

Unknown Soldier wrote: »

Please don't do that

I know of one boards.ie user who is dead due to going up the inside of a lorry. Left behind a young family. Made a post here about 12:30 one day and was dead before 6PM

Never go up the inside of a lorry/bus etc, unless it is an extremely long, straight and stationary line of traffic with no left turns.

Safety first, always.

Did you see the boards.ie user cycle up the inside of a lorry? It is often said that someone has done this, when in fact the lorry has driven up the outside of the cyclist.

Corca Baiscinn wrote: »

That's true re drink driving, also re smoking ban and plastic bags and smokeless fuel to a great extent but all backed up by legislation and enforcement. Think approach has to be multi-pronged. Definitely infrastructure too.

Enforcement to some extent, but I think more important is the societal acceptance of these laws. There isn't a garda waiting at the supermarket door to see if you've paid for your plastic bags. But it's much more acceptable by the community to use shopping bags - a change that only happened after the ban.

Smokeless fuel; a neighbour has a visitor from Wexford, and he said that as soon as he got to the city centre he started getting a gritty feeling in his lungs - he says Dublin is getting much more polluted lately.

We need to make unnecessary driving just as societally unacceptable as smoking or strewing plastic bags across the countryside. 40% of journeys are under 4km; we need those made by bike. The News today said we were using more wind power and yet polluting more - it blamed electricity generators for buying more coal and oil because they're cheap now, but surely the pollution given off by cars is equally huge.

Beasty

Posts moved from Cyclist down thread

Please do not use incidents like that to start wider discussions on cycling safety. Any questions PM me - do not respond to this post in-thread

Thanks

crosstownk

Chuchote wrote: »

There isn't a garda waiting at the supermarket door to see if you've paid for your plastic bags. But it's much more acceptable by the community to use shopping bags - a change that only happened after the ban.

My guess is the 22c cost for the bag was as good as the Garda at the door.

Chuchote wrote: »

We need to make unnecessary driving just as societally unacceptable as smoking or strewing plastic bags across the countryside. 40% of journeys are under 4km; we need those made by bike.

Why should driving be societally unacceptable? It's a perfectly acceptable mode of transport.

Harmony between all modes of transport is what is needed. No us, No them.

Leroy42

crosstownk wrote: »

Why should driving be societally unacceptable? It's a perfectly acceptable mode of transport.

Harmony between all modes of transport is what is needed. No us, No them.

They said unneccessary driving, not all driving. The 40% within 4kms should be frowned upon. Of course there will be times when it is necessary, but if people are honest with themselves that i many cases it is just lazy.

They we need to build/provide parking spaces at either end. Think of all the wasted space that is taken up by parking spaces. They could be used to create better pavements or wider cycles tracks.

As a society we have yielded completely to the car. I've banged this drum before but go to any row of shops and there will always be parking available but usually nothing for bikes.

Many pubs have car parks but you are lucky to get even a basic bike rike.

Close to where I live, the main raod is almost impassable because on both sides people park their cars. If you want a car provide your own parking space. If that means losing your front garden then so be it. It would certainly put people off having two, three, even four cars in one household.

tomasrojo

Whatever about "acceptable", I think that many aspects of driving are substantially "mispriced", to use the economists' term. The cost of driving doesn't reflect the negative externalities in the case of pollution, not just NOx emissions but also CO2, or the starkly inefficient use of road capacity at times of peak use in urban settings.

Not much chance of anyone who needs votes pricing it correctly though. A congestion charge is just about imaginable, maybe.

Leroy42

But you don't even have to go that far as a congestion charge.

Just make it illegal to stop and park on a road. Straight away the school run will be knocked on the head. Spread out the payed parking zones to further out and get rid of all parking on main roads. For example, why is there car parking on Fairview Strand on the way out of town? It makes no sense. It holds up buses,means cyclists have to cycle out of the cycle lane for fear of being doored etc.

But it is there for the convenience of car drivers. It is this social cost that is never taken into account. Car ownership is only seen as the cost to buy and run the car, but society pays a much higher price than that. If you remove these conveniences suddenly the hassle of car ownership becomes far more apparent. Would you take to the car to the local shops if you knew the possibility was that you would be waiting ages for the few parking spaces still left or run the risk of getting a ticket? No, you'd walk of cycle.

And before anybody gives examples of how it couldn't possibly work, of course I acknowledge that there has to be some leeway and that one size doesn't fit all, but its amount changing the mindset from the car being seen as the ultimate convenience to the actual hassle item is should be.

tomasrojo

Taking away parking spaces is politically risky too. At the very least, you'll get lobbied aggressively for trying.

I quite like the "carbon credits"-style idea of trading car-road-use credits. Those who drive indirectly pay those who don't. I haven't though it through though.

crosstownk

I do agree that too much road space is afford to motorised vehicles - especially when it comes to parked cars on public streets. Surely private off street car parks are a better answer and the parking charges associated with them.

I also agree that many <4km journeys by car could be made by other means - walking, cycling, public transport. But if someone chooses to drive because they simply prefer that means of transport then they are fully entitled to do so. Encouraging some of these <4km folks to take alternative forms or transport is the key.

There's no easy answer. People like their cars and to the majority it's a much better choice to sit in the car with the heater on listening to the radio rather than taking another form of transport. Why? Well I don't know because I prefer to be out on the streets commuting by bike.

The idea of applying BIK to company parking is something that might help - an enhancement to BTW of sorts.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

how long ago did that happen?

When did what happen? If you were asking about my post and the big building truck, it was the week before last; I think the truck was going down to that big building project on the Dodder. I'd looked at the truck and worked out that it couldn't possibly get up beside me and I'd be safe to go into the right-hand lane to cut into Beatty's… Lane(?), next thing the damn thing was up beside me and looming over me and way up above the driver was gazing away into space while I waved frantically.

Annie get your Run wrote: »

On the whole behavior issue we managed to change attitudes to drink driving, it took a while but it's completely unacceptable now. It can be done but it needs the backing of every government department & relevant agency's, the gardai, the likes of the AA etc.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/irish-news/road-accident-death-toll-reveals-devastating-effect-of-drinking-34764996.html

Road accident death toll reveals 'devastating effect' of drinking
01/06/2016

Drink played a part in almost 40% all fatal road accidents in a five-year period, research has revealed.
Analysis of forensic reports from crashes between 2008 and 2012 found alcohol was a factor in collisions in which 366 motorists, their passengers, motorbike users, pedestrians and cyclists were killed.
And the study showed men are far more likely to get behind the wheel after drinking and were involved in nine out of 10 alcohol-fuelled accidents.

average_runner

Ideas all sound good but you got get the following in place beforehand

1)Public Transport for 4k distance should cost a family of 8 return ticket, no more than 5 euro if not free. Buses also need to run every 5 mins.

2)All housing estates and apartment blocks must have a playground facility within 10 mins walk. Reason for Fairview Park road park is because its a park that is used alot by people.

3) Shops, chemists, doctors etc should be no more than 5 mins from houses

4) And the big one for schools, only go to the schools in your parish boundary. Not a religion boundary just the parish area.

jive

Some of the bike lanes in Dublin should actually be removed, they are not fit for use and cause motorists to become less tolerant resulting in close passes, beeping, etc.

Dublin needs to look at introducing more segregated cycle lanes like the one on the canal. It's good and literally every cyclist uses it unless they need to exit the cycle lane to turn off at a junction.

Why we even persist at putting down a strip of white paint and painting a bicycle inside the white line is beyond me. I'd rather save the money on 100s of those for a handful of proper cycle lanes.

Moflojo

average_runner wrote: »

Ideas all sound good but you got get the following in place beforehand

1)Public Transport for 4k distance should cost a family of 8 return ticket, no more than 5 euro if not free. Buses also need to run every 5 mins.

2)All housing estates and apartment blocks must have a playground facility within 10 mins walk. Reason for Fairview Park road park is because its a park that is used alot by people.

3) Shops, chemists, doctors etc should be no more than 5 mins from houses

4) And the big one for schools, only go to the schools in your parish boundary. Not a religion boundary just the parish area.

Each issue you've outlined simply needs an administrative or legislative solution, not an infrastructural one. Cycling requires investment in infrastructure, in protected separated cycleways. Put those in place and every single journey under 4km will be free, apart from the initial investment in the bicycle.

Chuchote

average_runner wrote: »

Ideas all sound good but you got get the following in place beforehand

1)Public Transport for 4k distance should cost a family of 8 return ticket, no more than 5 euro if not free. Buses also need to run every 5 mins.

2)All housing estates and apartment blocks must have a playground facility within 10 mins walk. Reason for Fairview Park road park is because its a park that is used alot by people.

3) Shops, chemists, doctors etc should be no more than 5 mins from houses

4) And the big one for schools, only go to the schools in your parish boundary. Not a religion boundary just the parish area.

Hmm. 4km only takes 10 minutes to cycle. In the immortal words of Van Morrison (slightly rephrased), have yiz all broken yere legs?

What is a parish boundary? Sorry to be ignorant, but I don't know.

Moflojo

Chuchote wrote: »

What is a parish boundary? Sorry to be ignorant, but I don't know.

A parish is just your local townland, borough or hinterland, but 'parish' specifically relates to the area under the domain of a local church. GAA clubs tend to use 'parishes' to designate their areas of influence too.

Church + State 4evs xx

CramCycle

average_runner wrote: »

Ideas all sound good but you got get the following in place beforehand

1)Public Transport for 4k distance should cost a family of 8 return ticket, no more than 5 euro if not free. Buses also need to run every 5 mins.

100% agree, with my family I would be far better hailing a taxi over a short distance than getting a bus or simply driving if not planning to stay long.

3) Shops, chemists, doctors etc should be no more than 5 mins from houses

Needs the planning authority to designate appropriate planning in certain areas and not allow them to be changed but I think the 1st point addresses this one in that getting PT to these facilities is reasonable if it is free upto a certain distance.

4) And the big one for schools, only go to the schools in your parish boundary. Not a religion boundary just the parish area.

A far harder one to do, we have to go outside our parish boundary as the ones inside of it are already full. At the very least it must be the first selection criteria (if not the only selection criteria) afforded to all schools in receipt of state funding. They must give preferential places to those within a certain area, to be decided upon in conjunction with the local council and other schools.

average_runner

Chuchote wrote: »

Hmm. 4km only takes 10 minutes to cycle. In the immortal words of Van Morrison (slightly rephrased), have yiz all broken yere legs?

What is a parish boundary? Sorry to be ignorant, but I don't know.

But not every one wants to cycle, so you got to provide the transport for these people.

Otherwise lets scrap cycling and force everyone to run the distance. Won't need cycling lanes etc.

That's the solution:D

Moflojo

average_runner wrote: »

But not every one wants to cycle, so you got to provide the transport for these people.

Otherwise lets scrap cycling and force everyone to run the distance. Won't need cycling lanes etc.

That's the solution:D

In fairness, I don't think anyone here has ever argued against bus lanes or public transport - they go hand-in-hand with the development of cycling infrastructure.

Personally, and I think the majority of cyclists would agree, I think we should be reducing the number of lanes for private vehicles and the amount of parking lanes and putting that space to good use as protected cycleways.

Your "bus lanes first" argument doesn't wash because nobody's disagreeing with it. Is there anything else you want to put ahead of bike lanes? Flower baskets on every lamp post perhaps?

average_runner

CramCycle wrote: »

100% agree, with my family I would be far better hailing a taxi over a short distance than getting a bus or simply driving if not planning to stay long.

Needs the planning authority to designate appropriate planning in certain areas and not allow them to be changed but I think the 1st point addresses this one in that getting PT to these facilities is reasonable if it is free upto a certain distance.

A far harder one to do, we have to go outside our parish boundary as the ones inside of it are already full. At the very least it must be the first selection criteria (if not the only selection criteria) afforded to all schools in receipt of state funding. They must give preferential places to those within a certain area, to be decided upon in conjunction with the local council and other schools.

Oh i understand schools in your area could be full, but that could be because they are great schools and people outside the area are going to them!

average_runner

Moflojo wrote: »

In fairness, I don't think anyone here has ever argued against bus lanes or public transport - they go hand-in-hand with the development of cycling infrastructure.

Personally, and I think the majority of cyclists would agree, I think we should be reducing the number of lanes for private vehicles and the amount of parking lanes and putting that space to good use as protected cycleways.

Your "bus lanes first" argument doesn't wash because nobody's disagreeing with it. Is there anything else you want to put ahead of bike lanes? Flower baskets on every lamp post perhaps?

I didnt say "bus lanes first", i said that public transport needs to drop in price and buses every 5 mins need to happen first. People were saying they wanted unecessary driving to stop, but for that to happen you got to improve the public transport first by more often and alot cheaper.

buffalo

average_runner wrote: »

3) Shops, chemists, doctors etc should be no more than 5 mins from houses

Is that 5mins by foot, bike, car or PT? With suburban sprawl, what is the size of population that would live within this radius, and would they be enough to sustain these businesses without public subsidies?