Should parents stop pretending that Santa is real?

xzanti

Ah the miserable bastards thread.

You're right on schedule.

Fluffy Cat 88

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Ever year this thread.


Leave kids be kids.

No harm or foul with Santa. Lovely time of year.

Last year's thread was my fault. I've spawned a monster

I think telling the children mammy and daddy pays santa for the gifts is a brilliant idea though.

LordSutch

DredFX wrote: »

Should parents stop pretending that Santa is real?

NO.

DredFX

LordSutch wrote: »

NO.

/thread.

LordSutch

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=101768211&postcount=151

bobomollard

Do Atheists tell their children that Santa isn't real right away as soon as they can talk?

They make such a fuss on the forum about making fun of people following someone that doesn't exist baptism, , getting their children out of religion in school, AA been religious along with hundreds of other areas

DredFX

bobomollard wrote: »

Do Atheists tell their children that Santa isn't real right away as soon as they can talk?

They make such a fuss on the forum about making fun of people following someone that doesn't exist baptism, , getting their children out of religion in school, AA been religious along with hundreds of other areas

One can partake in holidays/events with religious origins without being a proponent of the religion.

Baptism and religious education aren't comparable to such an event because the former is a Christian rite and the latter is designed to teach children about a subject matter that the parents object to.

You'd be surprised by the amount of people who gather round the tree and eat their turkey without paying a moment of attention to the Christian side.

nice_guy80

It also prepares them for the fact religions are a sham

DredFX

nice_guy80 wrote: »

It also prepares them for the fact religions are a sham

Bit behind schedule, bud. Already seen that line like forty times in this thread.

HS3

Absolutely not. But I think the annual 'Santa tracker ' and videos from the north pole are a stretch too far. It's not about factual proof, it's about magic! It's about using your imagination.

gctest50

DredFX wrote: »

.

You'd be surprised by the amount of people who gather round the tree and eat their turkey without paying a moment of attention to the Christian side.

And how about the Pagan side ? "stolen" from them anyway - as in the new Christian shower had their celebration at the same time of year

DredFX

gctest50 wrote: »

And how about the Pagan side ? "stolen" from them anyway - as in the new Christian shower had their celebration at the same time of year

Well, child sacrifices have been on the rise...

_Brian

_Brian wrote: »

This **** comes up year after year.

Kids are only kids for a very short time, where's the harm in a bit of make believe that reaches into their home and makes them happy.

I'm overwhelmingly greatful to my parents for all the fun Christmases we had as a family, proper magic times to look back on.

I'm on a position where my eldest is just a few years out of santa but my younger is a believer. My eldest was also greatful for the Christmas gifts she godly and enjoys being part of the magic helping he sister get ready for santa coming.

Far as I can see is only miserable pricks want to destroy the whole santa magic for young kids and I think they should be ashamed.

Brilliant post. I look back at the Santy days as the only christmasses i really really enjoyed and as a mature adult today im able to appreciate and accept they had to end at some stage. im certainly not traumatised or damaged from the experience as the 'research' seems to find.

Thinking about it, the opening of presents on Christmas morning with the belief that they were delivered by some magical means was probably the closest thing to the good endorphin's for a child that only sex or drugs could deliver in later years. Its a shock to the system when you first find out the truth and i admittedly cried. i found out at 10.

There are more traumatic things that happen to children in life and yet 'experts' trivialise the one good positive thing. Incompetent teachers or parents probably have a bigger impact on Childrens mental well being

mickoneill31

bobomollard wrote: »

Do Atheists tell their children that Santa isn't real right away as soon as they can talk?

They make such a fuss on the forum about making fun of people following someone that doesn't exist baptism, , getting their children out of religion in school, AA been religious along with hundreds of other areas

Atheist means you don't believe in a deity. I don't think there's a rule saying you can't tell kids fairy stories. You should have been able to figure that out for yourself.

gctest50

DredFX wrote: »

Well, child sacrifices have been on the rise...

800 to the sewer god in tuam : Christian nuns

doolox

Santa and the whole Christmas commercial theme is a ploy to get people to spend more than they can really afford. The ideal response would be to keep a very close eye on spending at this time of year to avoid debt and extending credit card bills but most people will give into their children and buy overpriced rubbish and be stretched in the new year.

Most people are only one, or at most two pay cheques away from homelessness.

In todays uncertain world, with the bosses unable or unwilling to lend certainty to the modern job, it is very unwise to spend recklessly and leave oneself vulnerable to bankruptcy, insolvency or homelessness.

So all ordinary people should extend a big middle finger to the over commercialisation of Christmas.....remember that he is the prophet who went mad with money changers in the temple......

Happy Christmas.

2forjoy

please think of the children

DredFX

doolox wrote: »

Santa and the whole Christmas commercial theme is a ploy to get people to spend more than they can really afford.

Jesus, you'd swear corporations had mind-control technology or something, the way these anti-commercial loonies are behaving.

Eimee90

newacc2015 wrote:

I don't think it is harmless fun though. There is plenty of studies that find children develop their spending habits at a very young age. I dont think it is particularly helpful for someone to be telling their 10/11 year old that a non-existent man brings them whatever they want rather than their parents hard work. How is a child supposed to be conservative around money when they dont know where it is being spent?

newacc2015 wrote:

It is important to keep Christmas magical etc. But it is more important that your children learns from a young age how to manage money. Christmas is a few days a year, bad spending habits **** you up for life.

Dear god, I'm lost for words.

BorneTobyWilde

Chris Mrs is aye bout Bibi G'sUs ,knot aye bout San Tee claws.

_Jamie_

ScumLord wrote: »

The people who thought they could vote for Brexit then change their mind afterwards?

Millennials voted overwhelmingly to remain in the EU.

FortySeven

I wish people would stop using santy and mammy. Such infantile use of language makes me cringe.

D0NNELLY

GLaDOS wrote: »

I've never heard of anyone resenting their parents over Santa......

.......until boards.....

D0NNELLY

gctest50 wrote: »

And how about the Pagan side ? "stolen" from them anyway - as in the new Christian shower had their celebration at the same time of year

Pagans stole it from the Egyptians.. watyagonnado eh?

HellSquirrel

I don't have any problem with parents playing Santa with their kids. From the pov of a total dreamer of a child who really wanted the fairies at the bottom of the garden to be real and had all sorts of imaginary worlds to play in, I figured it out and there was no trauma to it. Let kids be kids and don't worry too much if they stay kids a bit longer than eight or nine. Children mature at different ages (and while on average they mature mentally/emotionally and physically more or less together, some of them don't. For me, I matured in the order of mind - body - emotional intelligence was later; I was mentally younger than my age).

Sure, for their own sanity in school, you might have to gently nudge them to accept that either a) certain things aren't real or b) it's okay to hang onto them a bit longer, just be cautious about talking about it too much. They do have to share the world with other people and it's kinder to help them fit into their community rather than be isolated.

Don't actually remember when "Santa" finished when I was growing up. Maybe nine-ten? I hung on to the fairies for another few years though and I don't regret it!

Chocolate fiend

I don't mind the whole Santa lie, I can get behind it but, it's not a huge deal for us because my kids go to a school where 75% of their classmates don't speak English as a first language and where at least that percentage don't have Santa in their lives. We do Santa because my husband and I enjoy doing it for the kids but, we don't go to any unusual lengths, there are no videos of him in our living room, there are no footprints or reindeer droppings in the garden.

Our children are 8, 7 and 4. The 8 year old doesn't believe, never really did, he is a dreamer in his own way, but, this one was never really for him. The 7 year old is totally invested in the whole thing, and the 4 year old can hardly sleep and it is still a month until Christmas day.

What I cannot get on board with is the stupid nonsense that is "Elf on the shelf" that is something that really gets on my nerves and just seems to add another layer to the already overhyped time around Christmas. An Elf watching to see if you are "good" and who does all sorts of naughty things while you are asleep? Oh and you can't touch him or the magic goes??? such absolute codswallop.

_Jamie_

FortySeven wrote: »

I wish people would stop using santy and mammy. Such infantile use of language makes me cringe.

I'm 32 and my mother is Mammy to me. Anything else sounds contrived. My mother called her mother Mammy even when her 'Mammy' was 79. There is no age to stop using the term, much like any term for mother.

Irish Guitarist

Or alternatively you could respect your parents for all the years of spending a fortune on presents and not taking any credit for it.

_Jamie_

Irish Guitarist wrote: »

Or alternatively you could respect your parents for all the years of spending a fortune on presents and not taking any credit for it.

Well, my parents used to make sure they got some credit, they used to tell us that they had a chat with Santa over the phone about our presents.

nozzferrahhtoo

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

What I like to do is go down to Smyths and when I see kids in the aisles at least ten feet from their parents, I kneel down beside them as if I'm tying my laces and tell them there is no Santa and that their parents are just liars. Once their bottom lip starts quivering, I'm outta there.

Actually what I do enjoy doing around Christmas is going into stores and making some passing comment about the Christmas Music to the staff there.

See the reaction to Christmas Music for most people working in such stores is they hate it more and more and more until their brain finally tunes it out. They simply stop hearing it. That is until some malicious git comes along and reminds them it is there, which resets their filters for awhile.

One of those little joys in life that makes Christmas shopping bearable.

JeffKenna wrote: »

Just because all of you are miserable bas*ards that's no excuse to destroy children's childhood.

Who is doing that, and how exactly?

Deleted User wrote: »

This is the part that gets me. Surely it's only special and magical because it's not true.

Not sure I understand that sentence to be honest. Probably my failing. But are you saying that the only things that can be special and magical.... are things that are not true?

I can only offer my genuine sympathy if that is indeed your view of this world and universe of wonder and awe that we live in.

DredFX wrote: »

Yes, for the months of November and December, because hey they're kids omg they're so excited but they're on their best behaviour because no gifts if they're bold.

And I am sure that is great and nothing particularly wrong with that. I just know I prefer to implement discipline methods that A) work all year around rather than just in the winter months and have my children behave and act morally and ethically for the sake of acting morally and ethically, not for the sake of maximizing their monetary and material gains.

Perhaps THAT approach is not for everyone, but I certainly see no fault in it at this time.

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Leave kids be kids.

Who is NOT doing that exactly, and how? This sounds a little assumptive as if "If you do not do childhood the way I do, then you must not be doing childhood". Exactly how, regale us on this, is someone not doing the santa narrative failing to "let kids be kids"?

DoozerT6 wrote: »

Is it any worse than scaring a child having a tantrum that 'The Man' will come and throw them out of the place if they don't stop screaming?

Actually I think that is ALSO a bad idea. It is ceding authority and is not a good move if you want your children to respect your authority and the discipline you lay down. Anyone taking that approach is risking undermining their own authority and effectiveness. It is similar to what many people call the "Just wait until daddy gets home" syndrome.

bobomollard wrote: »

Do Atheists tell their children that Santa isn't real right away as soon as they can talk?

I do not call myself, or identify myself, by the term "Atheist" but it is a term OTHER people strongly identify with. And to answer your question from my perspective.... because I certainly do not talk for all atheists, and many atheists DO do the Santa thing...... I did not so much tell them there is a Santa..... as I simply never told them, or implemented any pretense, that there was one.

bobomollard wrote: »

They make such a fuss on the forum about making fun of people following someone that doesn't exist baptism, , getting their children out of religion in school, AA been religious along with hundreds of other areas

Well in fairness baptism and religion in school and so forth are things that affect our children FOR LIFE. Whereas the Santa thing, whether you do it or not, is merely a game played at home for a short period of time. So the "fuss" is hardly comparable really.

HS3 wrote: »

Absolutely not. But I think the annual 'Santa tracker ' and videos from the north pole are a stretch too far. It's not about factual proof, it's about magic! It's about using your imagination.

It is, but the great thing about children is they are VERY much capable of using their imagination.... often much more than we adults can..... without them ever having to believe the thing they are imagining is actually true/real.

And I think this subtle fact is one that many people miss when they rail judgemental derision on the parents who simply choose to not do the santa thing.

nozzferrahhtoo

seamus wrote: »

I doubt it is "mostly" down to just diverting from the narrative, but certainly a fair amount of it is.

I certainly can not figure out what else it is. But that of course could simply be my failing. But it is something I see quite often in so many other realms.... where diverging from the narrative most people live their lives by wins you suspicion, derision and even outright hatred.... that I can only imagine it is a significant factor here too.

seamus wrote: »

In most cases it's not that they're angry with you for diverting from the narrative or jealous that you can, but they're genuinely trying to understand why and how you could ever feel that way.

I am sure there are such genuine people but I wonder if a cursory read over this thread would suggest they are anything but a minority. Not that this thread is representative of course, but still. Where are the people "genuinely trying to understand why and how" we feel that way? Which posts are they? nelly17s comes close I guess but I am struggling to find more.

I timed myself here. A random 180 second read over the thread shows that it is not THIS selection of posts anyway.....

• One post with a random unprovoked attack on atheists.
• "only miserable pricks want to destroy the whole santa magic"
• "Bunch of festiviphobes."
• a couple of posts with snide sarcastic "You must be great crack" and "You sound like mighty craic, buck." type comments.
• assumptions that they "must have had a **** childhood."
• "The amount of buzz kills around here.. Christ.. must have been miserable and joyless around Christmas time in your houses."
• "You'd want to be some miserable prick to even suggest taking that away from children."
• "You'd have to be some killjoy to never let them experience that."
• "Just because all of you are miserable bas*ards that's no excuse to destroy children's childhood."
• Can these fcukwits perhaps consider doing something useful with their funding?
• And popping up MULTIPLE times the absolute wanton assumption behind the comment "Leave kids be kids." as if somehow by not doing Santa you must OVERALL be a parent who is not doing exactly that.
• "Ah the miserable bastards thread."

..... because that sounds like the opposite of genuinely wanting to understand anything. That sounds like people who have STRONGLY already made their mind up on it and have little interest in what the other side have to say or why they do (or do not do) what they do.

Not so many posts there saying "Oh interesting you are doing things differently, and how is it you achieve the same level of joy and wonder at Christmas without doing the things we do?"

So yea not seeing this "genuine interest" myself. But I have long suspected you see the good in people a lot more readily than I :-)

Poor Uncle Tom

_Jamie_ wrote: »

Well, my parents used to make sure they got some credit, they used to tell us that they had a chat with Santa over the phone about our presents.

The internet put paid to the notion that any child over 6 still believes, if anything can be done about the whole christmas debacle can it be to restrict it to a week at the end of December only please, the whole fu**in mess is sprawled over 3 months now......

Advbrd

D0NNELLY wrote: »

Pagans stole it from the Egyptians.. watyagonnado eh?

Would the Egyptians not be classified as pagans?

iguana

nelly17 wrote: »

Its something I've been wondering myself recently - would my children appreciate knowing that all of this stuff actually came from me and my wife and we worked hard to provide it. Honestly I don't know.

They do figure that out eventually you know. My parents had very, very little money when we were growing up but my mum was a budgeting genius and both my parents were great at making things or turning broken crap back into something of value. (Which made my dad's job as a binman a bit of a goldmine.) And when I look back on my childhood Christmas now, I think of my mum putting away an untouchable £2 each week for Christmas. Of my dad scouring the dump for fixable toys or missing parts of broken toys he'd already found. Of the two of them putting us to bed at night in December and getting out their tools, paintbrushes and sewing kits to make and refurbish the toys they couldn't afford to buy new. They worked so hard, so cleverly and so carefully, probably half stressed out that they'd get it wrong and half filled with glee at the thought of out faces on Christmas morning.

And then they gave all that credit to someone else. All that work without any expectation of even a thank you. That's one of the purest forms of love I can imagine. I'm in total and utter awe every time I think about it.

The Bishop Basher

Ah back here again. Hard to believe it's been a year already :-)

Love Christmas. Love Santa. It was such a magical part of growing up and has been for my own kids too. They're past it now but he still comes every year and they'd go nuts if we ever stopped.. they don't get anything extra as they only ever got Santa presents anyway so it's not about greed or anything. They never asked for much. it's just a tradition they love and hold very dear..

But I do resent the insinuation from this article that we've done something wrong and damaged our relationship with them by carrying this on. That's just complete and utter bollox.

I get all the other magical stuff too by the way. We used to visit nursing homes and sing carols for the old people. The way their faces lit up was magic. We still have carol singers where we live and there's magic in the air when they come round. The sights, the smells, the sounds of Christmas, making decorations, putting up the tree, baking, cooking, spending time with loved ones, playing games etc etc. It's all magic and we enjoy all of that that too..

But based on my own experience, my siblings experience, that of my wife and our kids and all of our nieces and nephews and anyone else i've ever spoken to about it.. Nothing comes even remotely close to creating the same magic as was created by the belief that Santa was coming to visit when we were young enough to still believe..

Would a kid be damaged or at a loss because they don't get to experience this ? Of course not. Each to their own. But let's not pretend that it's the same.. For most kids Santa is a massive part of the magic and always will be. That magic lives on as we get to witness it through subsequent generations and i'll be forever grateful to my parents for making it part of our Christmas..

Advbrd

iguana wrote: »

They do figure that out eventually you know. My parents had very, very little money when we were growing up but my mum was a budgeting genius and both my parents were great at making things or turning broken crap back into something of value. (Which made my dad's job as a binman a bit of a goldmine.) And when I look back on my childhood Christmas now, I think of my mum putting away an untouchable £2 each week for Christmas. Of my dad scouring the dump for fixable toys or missing parts of broken toys he'd already found. Of the two of them putting us to bed at night in December and getting out their tools, paintbrushes and sewing kits to make and refurbish the toys they couldn't afford to buy new. They worked so hard, so cleverly and so carefully, probably half stressed out that they'd get it wrong and half filled with glee at the thought of out faces on Christmas morning.

And then they gave all that credit to someone else. All that work without any expectation of even a thank you. That's one of the purest forms of love I can imagine. I'm in total and utter awe every time I think about it.

There you go, that's Christmas. Fcuk the begrudgers.

nozzferrahhtoo

Swanner wrote: »

Would a kid be damaged or at a loss because they don't get to experience this ? Of course not. Each to their own. But let's not pretend that it's the same.. For most kids Santa is a massive part of the magic and always will be.

I think the comparison that jumps to mind is an analogy to color blindness. For those of us with the "full" color spectrum it is hard to imagine life without it. We would say things similar to what you say above. "Its not the same" and "it is a massive part of our sight and always will be" and so on.

And while all that is 100% correct, I do not think we would turn around to people who can not see a particular color and tell them they are somehow missing out, or that they are not enjoying sight and life as much as we are, that somehow life and sight are things that are more special for us than for them. Because the majority of that would simply be nonsense judgemental and assumptive tosh.

But I fear that is what many people on this thread ARE doing. They are, through the comments I summarized for seamus above, assuming exactly that. That somehow Christmas without Santa, or Families without Santa, are missing out, or could not possibly have the same quality of joy or memories or experience that they have/had. To the point of outright insulting them with comments like "miserable ****es" and worse.

And this is simply is not true. At all. Even a little bit. And I think phrases like "Well it just is not the SAME" are phrases that while pedantically 100% accurate and true.... still manage to say absolutely nothing at all or actual worth. relevance or utility.

DredFX

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Not so many posts there saying "Oh interesting you are doing things differently, and how is it you achieve the same level of joy and wonder at Christmas without doing the things we do?"

So yea not seeing this "genuine interest" myself. But I have long suspected you see the good in people a lot more readily than I :-)

Many of the folks with grievances about Christmas have explained themselves, and the consensus (from what I've gleaned, obviously not everyone is the same) is that the fantastical side of Santa damages children and rewarding good behaviour with gifts teaches them the wrong values.

It is presumptuousness of that level that warrants disagreement. Sure, the sarcasm (which I have partaken in) went too far at times, but it really is ridiculous that some people believe that the Santa myth will turn them into selfish, unappreciative curmudgeons, when in reality the real culprit will always be bad parenting. Parents can decide whether to spoil their kids, whether to encourage generosity, whether to tell them to lighten up if they get whingey that their new iPhone arrived white instead of pink.

It is rhetoric we see every year, and it almost always follows the same questionable logic. If you won't tell your kids about Santa, fine; do what you want, disregard those who think you're being mean. But if you come along insisting that Christmas tales will hurt the youth of today, you're going to be rebuked, because many people here have great childhood memories of said tales, and most have grown up to be rational folk capable of sympathy and altruism. (Most, anyway.)

Also,

One post with a random unprovoked attack on atheists.

I'm struggling to sympathise with this because a lot of atheists in this thread have come along with the usual platitudinous crap about religion being like Santa because hur it's also fake. And they don't do it to express their opinion. No, they do it in the hope that some ardent bible-thumper will come along and condemn them to hell, so they can smile under their breath and praise themselves for refuting another brainwashed fool who believes in a fairy in the sky, yay, good for them.

nozzferrahhtoo

DredFX wrote: »

It is presumptuousness of that level that warrants disagreement. Sure, the sarcasm (which I have partaken in) went too far at times, but it really is ridiculous that some people believe that the Santa myth will turn them into selfish, unappreciative curmudgeons

Indeed as I said earlier in the thread: "I think what these "scientists" are saying is hyperbolic at best."

But at the same time I can at least see some truth in the CORE of what they are expressing.

For example children look to us as a source of education and safety and truth and learning. So to find out that that source has been lying to them..... I can see how SOME children could be shaken by that even if the vast majority get over it.

Or for example there is at least SOME truth to what one user said that thinking the toys come from some infinite unseen power might not help them along the path towards understanding where toys come from, what they cost, what the limits are, and what the value of them is.

Similarly where Santa is used to control good behavior, is it possible that SOME children will get the message that the goal of being good is not for goodness sake, or for the benefit of others, or for any moral or ethical reasons.... but to maximize their monetary and material gains?

Again, there is hyperbole galore on the part of the original article, but it hides a few minor truths at least worth of consideration as a parent if nothing else.

DredFX wrote: »

disregard those who think you're being mean.

As my record on the forum shows I am rarely one to merely "disregard" people or their positions. I tend to explain at some (perhaps often nauseating ) length how I have considered their position and found it to be problematic at best.

I think I have not disregarded the people who think I am being mean, but explained quite clearly and logically as to why their appraisal is an error and there is not only no "meanness" in play, but no valid reason to expect there is. And in fact despite the length of my posts, I suspect I might be one of the more moderate between the two extremes on the thread so far

HellSquirrel

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

[*] And popping up MULTIPLE times the absolute wanton assumption behind the comment "Leave kids be kids." as if somehow by not doing Santa you must OVERALL be a parent who is not doing exactly that.
[/LIST]

I think in general it was referring to the article itself, rather than other speakers with the "let kids be kids". Wrote it myself and it wasn't a jibe at anyone else. But I do think that magic and stories are a part of childhood and I don't see it as damaging to children to have Santa when they're young. They'll grow out of it eventually themselves and a bit of the magic will die.

I don't think it's intended to be a dig.

iguana wrote: »

And then they gave all that credit to someone else. All that work without any expectation of even a thank you. That's one of the purest forms of love I can imagine. I'm in total and utter awe every time I think about it.

All of that post is just a lovely story. Your parents are/were wonderful people.

DredFX wrote: »

I'm struggling to sympathise with this because a lot of atheists in this thread have come along with the usual platitudinous crap about religion being like Santa because hur it's also fake. And they don't do it to express their opinion. No, they do it in the hope that some ardent bible-thumper will come along and condemn them to hell, so they can smile under their breath and praise themselves for refuting another brainwashed fool who believes in a fairy in the sky, yay, good for them.

Well, yeah, there's always a couple of asses. I'm fairly atheist-leaning myself, but I don't see the point of having a go at people's honest beliefs, so long as they're not hurting people. Admittedly, some of the Christians can be pretty arsish as well and you'd think they were being fed to lions with the whole "Happy Holidays" business, but people are..well, people. Some are idiots.

razorblunt

My Dad's best stories are not around the hassle of saving up over the year to afford our presents (we always got we wanted, though I'm sure we were probably coaxed away from things that were too hard hitting on the pockets), but around the pain to actually assemble things.

The GI Joe Command Center is his favourite one, took him 3 nights after work to get it done, had to start early in September as he knew the run up would mean he'd get no time at home to do it. Turns out my uncle left it until 5 am Xmas Eve to build my cousin's one. He was half pissed and was up until 3am trying to do it. To say it just about held together is an understatement.

The uncle made the same mistake the next year with the Ghostbuster house.

nozzferrahhtoo

HellSquirrel wrote: »

I think in general it was referring to the article itself

Not sure either way to be honest. A few people have said it and I do not think it was always directed at the article. One user saying it for example prefaced it with a comment about how this thread comes up every year. Which suggests the comment was not directed to the article, but in general.

HellSquirrel wrote: »

But I do think that magic and stories are a part of childhood

As do I, which I have said in most of the posts I have written on the thread so far. But I also think it remarkable and wonderful how children do not actually have to be convinced magic and stories are REAL for them to glean every bit of imagination, wonder, joy and excitement for them.

And the great thing, I feel, about that is when done right there is no need for the "magic to die" as they grow older therefore. Quite the opposite. Some people grow up NEVER losing their sense of wonder and imagination and magic and awe at the world and universe around us.

When you see the likes of Brian Cox and Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Bill Nye.... they pratically wet themselves with excitement and wonder and joy at the wonder and magic in the world they find themselves in.

And almost invariably when they do public talks..... one of the first questions they get asked in the Q+A pretty much EVERY time.... is how to stimulate or resurrect that wonder and joy in science and reality.

I wrote earlier for example about another boards user who wrote how he is doing "egg windowing" with his little Daugther who is around 6/7. This is where you meticulously cut a window in a developing egg and re-seal it with something transparent.

So now they are literally watching as an embryo develops into a little fluffy cute yellow chick.

Now THAT is a foray into wonder and awe and magic and imagination.... wholly based in the real world..... and I doubt that experience will ever "die" in quite the same way you describe. That for me is wonderful parenting and amazing stuff. One of those "Why did I not think of that" kinda things.

_Jamie_

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

The internet put paid to the notion that any child over 6 still believes, if anything can be done about the whole christmas debacle can it be to restrict it to a week at the end of December only please, the whole fu**in mess is sprawled over 3 months now......

That's nice but I'm not sure what it has to do with my post.

The Bishop Basher

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

But I fear that is what many people on this thread ARE doing. They are, through the comments I summarized for seamus above, assuming exactly that. That somehow Christmas without Santa, or Families without Santa, are missing out, or could not possibly have the same quality of joy or memories or experience that they have/had. To the point of outright insulting them with comments like "miserable ****es" and worse.

And this is simply is not true. At all. Even a little bit. And I think phrases like "Well it just is not the SAME" are phrases that while pedantically 100% accurate and true.... still manage to say absolutely nothing at all or actual worth. relevance or utility.

People are just relating it to their own experiences though. Speaking for myself, my Christmas's wouldn't have been anything like as magical as they were had we not had Santa so i feel my kids would have missed out if we hadn't carried on the tradition.

That doesn't mean I think your kids are missing out. Only you can decide that for yourself and sure as long as you're happy there's no issue. I'm not going to judge and i've no reason whatsoever to doubt that your kids have an equally amazing and special Christmas.. albeit in different ways..

And that was all i meant when i said it's not the same. Because it can't be. Santa is such an integral part of the magic of Christmas for so many of us and our kids that it's not possible to create that genuine super natural magic without him. Just as it would be impossible to create it if your child doesn't believe. You can certainly create wonder and joy and special moments and call them "magic" like the egg windowing you mention which is a beautiful idea, but it's not genuine magic and it's certainly not the same magic as experienced by a kid on Christmas eve who genuinely believes in Santa.

Also worth mentioning that many of us do create the magic you speak of as well as the magic of Santa so we do see this from all sides.

RoboRat

if anything can be done about the whole christmas debacle can it be to restrict it to a week at the end of December only please, the whole fu**in mess is sprawled over 3 months now......

Why? I have kids and its 2 months of the year where they are absolute angels... come Nov 1st, better be good and do what you're told as Santa is watching.

BBDBB

RacoonQueen wrote: »

No. My parents were great at the Santa/Easter Bunny/Tooth Fairy things.

And gingerbread men...when they go us gingerbread men as after dinner treats they used to hide them around the house for us to find and tell us the gingerbread men had run away so we couldn't eat them.

Such innocent times.

My Gran used to hide sweets under a small ornament of a leprechaun stood on a plinth, a few times a day when visiting Id be urged to go a check to see if he'd left me anything and he always did. It also kept me quiet to be told to sit and watch him to see if he moved. I never caught him getting the sweets but as soon as I took my eye off him, a sweet would appear




Looking back now, I realise it was a cheap and nasty trick to play on a 15 year old and I am definitely seeking compensation for my damaged childhood

Cupcake_Crisis

DredFX wrote: »

Article on the Telegraph today (also published on the Irish Examiner, though they deleted it within hours of posting it) reports on a suggestion by a psychologist and social scientist that parents should stop pretending Santa Claus exists because it could hurt their relations with their children.



A professor from the University of New England in Australia also made the rather insightful claim that:



So, lying about Santa can bring progenitor-offspring relations into a serious penumbra.

Anybody here resent their parents for maintaining the great Christmas masquerade? I sure as hell do.

No. Not a bit. I always loved Christmas, still do. And when my niece was born as I got to watch her enjoy it all I loved it even more. Christmas can be magical for kids, and they've only so many years to enjoy it. Leave them be ffs!

nozzferrahhtoo

Swanner wrote: »

People are just relating it to their own experiences though.

No doubt. That is exactly the point of the analogy I used. And in and of itself there is nothing really wrong with that. But it does go to show how it can lead you to some pretty erroneous conclusions.

Swanner wrote: »

Speaking for myself, my Christmas's wouldn't have been anything like as magical as they were had we not had Santa so i feel my kids would have missed out if we hadn't carried on the tradition.

And I think that assumption is the heart of the error. Because what we do as humans, not your fault at all, is simply imagine two partitioned scenarios. The one we had.... and the one we had MINUS some element (in this case Santa) and we assume those to be the options. And almost by definition therefore one comes out worse than the other.

However you have NO IDEA really.... short of going back in time and prepping your parents not to do the Santa thing..... how that experiment would run under the new parameters.

But I think it highly likely there would not have been a Santa shaped vacuum in the narrative it would leave you sitting here with today. I would say....... as the many parents on here are telling you who do not do the Santa thing....... that it would have been filled with other equally wonderful replacements.

And the error is thinking any one of them better or worse than the other. They are all paths that lead to the same goal and there is no reason to think the children without Santa are "missing out" on anything at all. But I fear many people on a thread like this genuinely do think that. And I can see how and why they end up in that error.

Which is what I mean when I say the phrase "it is not the same" really does not say much at all when one sits down and unpacks it to see what is in there. It is one of those 100% pedantically correct phrases that somehow manages to say nothing in the end. It is one of those things that are "not the same" but every bit as equal anyway.

kunst nugget

iguana wrote: »

They do figure that out eventually you know. My parents had very, very little money when we were growing up but my mum was a budgeting genius and both my parents were great at making things or turning broken crap back into something of value. (Which made my dad's job as a binman a bit of a goldmine.) And when I look back on my childhood Christmas now, I think of my mum putting away an untouchable £2 each week for Christmas. Of my dad scouring the dump for fixable toys or missing parts of broken toys he'd already found. Of the two of them putting us to bed at night in December and getting out their tools, paintbrushes and sewing kits to make and refurbish the toys they couldn't afford to buy new. They worked so hard, so cleverly and so carefully, probably half stressed out that they'd get it wrong and half filled with glee at the thought of out faces on Christmas morning.

And then they gave all that credit to someone else. All that work without any expectation of even a thank you. That's one of the purest forms of love I can imagine. I'm in total and utter awe every time I think about it.

Ah, stop… I shouldn't have read that in work. You have wonderful parents.

LordSutch

FortySeven wrote: »

I wish people would stop using santy and mammy. Such infantile use of language makes me cringe.

Agreed. Although we must accept that (for whatever reason) some Irish people just talk like that. I think the whole concept of Santa visiting on Christmas Eve is magical for children, long may the tradition last.