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No rental agreement guest won't leave

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  • 27-11-2016 12:52pm
    #1
    HonestM
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭


    Hi All,

    I am hoping someone may be able to help. I have a family member who allowed a local woman to stay in his property whilst he was working abroad. She gave him some sob story and needed somewhere to stay urgently. He agreed as a short term measure just to help her out. There is no rental agreement and she insisted on paying him something which is a nominal fee certainly not full rent. He needs to sell the house. Placed it on the market but she made it difficult for the agent and kept refusing viewings saying it was inconvenient. It was taken off the market as it was pointless not being able to show it. She has agreed to move out but then doesnt. She keeps dictating what she will and won't do and basically says she is not leaving. What can he do? I have suggested changing the locks and packing her stuff into a van and taking it to her parents home. He is at his wits end. Any advice would be appreciated.


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    #2
    HonestM
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭HonestM


    He is an older man and still working abroad. came back here for two weeks to try and sort it. He is just being met with abuse and attitude.


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    #3
    lollsangel
    Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭lollsangel


    Why have I got a feeling bcos he took that nominal fee it constitues a contract of rental.....


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    #4
    HonestM
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭HonestM


    Thats what my concern was and she probably done that to imply there was a contract. he is getting legal advice on Monday but I worry the solicitor will just make money and no action will be taken.


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    #5
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,336 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    He's screwed; accepting any sum of money in return for the use of the property renders it a tenancy for RTA. This is why people have safeguarding/guardianship arrangements when they want a property occupied but want the ability to terminate on a whim.

    He should speak to whatever solicitor he proposes using for the house sale laying out all the facts and get advice as to what he needs to do to serve a termination notice on "intent to sell" grounds.

    Never accept money unless you intend to grant full tenancy rights.


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    #6
    Riva10
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭Riva10


    Ask her or tell her to leave. Ensure there is a witness so she does'nt accuse him of any wrong doing. If she refuses then she is trespassing. Call the Gardaí and let them deal with it.


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    #7
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Does the woman have the use of the entire property or has your friend kept a room for himself? If he has, he could argue that she is a licensee. This puts him in a much stronger position as he can enter the house and ask her to leave at any time.

    If not a licensee, I too would be worried that the acceptance of a payment would have created a rental contract. As he wants to sell the property, he is entitled to evict her and sell with vacant posession. However, if this lady is difficult and plays silly buggers it could take him a year, and lots of expense, to get her out by this route.

    Is there any correspondence between them before (or even after) he let her stay that would evidence their arrangement? As there was only a verbal contract between them, such correspondence could provide background to what was actually agreed and her true status.


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    #8
    newacc2015
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,379 ✭✭✭newacc2015


    I would say he will have to call a big law firm as in someone in the big 5 who is an expert on tenancy law to see how he can get her out. If he does something stupid it maybe considered an illegal eviction and he could be fined thousands. I am going to assume he hasnt registered this individual with the RTB and if she does go to them he will be fined regardless.

    I think your friend just needs to call an excellent law firm tomorrow. Your jack of all trades and master of none family practice will be no use to him IMO.

    Have you considered giving her a cash payment to leave? I know it isnt ideal, but it could be the cheapness option between an illegal eviction (your suggestion of putting her stuff in a van) and waiting to evict her legally. I say she will go down the RTB route of hearing etc and could end up living there for up to a year with no rent.

    Have you gone to her parents to explain the situation? You might be able to get her parents to get her to leave


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    #9
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,965 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    He almost certain needs to pay her to leave. Will be cheaper than lawyers.


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    #10
    MarySmyth
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭MarySmyth


    Sad story for all concerned - including the defacto 'tenant'. I agree with option number 1- this happened us when we were in college many moons ago- the landlady (a fellow student) decided in act of madness that she wanted free house- we arrived home and all our worldly belongings were in black bags on the street! Obviously we had 'rights'- but our immediate problem was a roof over our heads and continuing with our college classes, etc. So we did not pursue- expect it would have taken months/ years to get any satisfaction from the authorities.
    <mod snip>


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    #11
    TheChizler
    Registered Users Posts: 9,455 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    If he can demonstrate that she didn't have exclusive use of the property, i.e. if he used the house when he was back and his stuff was everywhere then he should be fine. If she did have full use of it and it is a tenancy and she's there less than 6 months he can serve her with a valid notice of eviction immediately. She will then have a few weeks to move out. If she doesn't it may get difficult but that's what the lawyer's for.


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    #12
    ED E
    Registered Users Posts: 36,167 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Riva10 wrote: »
    Ask her or tell her to leave. Ensure there is a witness so she does'nt accuse him of any wrong doing. If she refuses then she is trespassing. Call the Gardaí and let them deal with it.

    This is the problem with boards, terrible advice like that.


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    #13
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    Mod note

    Money has changed hands, creating a tenancy. Suggesting illegally evicting the tenant is not permitted in this forum.


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    #14
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #15
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    It's grounds for termination of a tenancy, not free reign to evict someone.

    There are steps involved in the legal process of getting a tenant to leave and the OP's friend was ignorant of the mess he got himself into by allowing this person to stay.


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    #16
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    This post has been deleted.


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    #17
    kala85
    Registered Users Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭kala85


    what happens if a house is sold and the tenants have received the due notice , but they are refusing to leave? Is the landlord within their rights to enter the property and take it back.

    What happens if they are refusing to leave?


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    #18
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    kala85 wrote: »
    what happens if a house is sold and the tenants have received the due notice , but they are refusing to leave? Is the landlord within their rights to enter the property

    No. They have to go through RTB


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    #19
    Michael D Not Higgins
    Registered Users Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Patww79 wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    A termination does not give the right to evict. If the tenant disputes it or overholds, the landlord must go through the RTB to get a determination order. Even then, they can only forcibly remove the tenant if the determination order is brought to court to be made enforceable by the sheriff.


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    #20
    kala85
    Registered Users Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭kala85


    Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »
    A termination does not give the right to evict. If the tenant disputes it or overholds, the landlord must go through the RTB to get a determination order. Even then, they can only forcibly remove the tenant if the determination order is brought to court to be made enforceable by the sheriff.

    So how long more would that take.
    Just worried about buying a house that is presently rented and that the tenant wont move out when the notice has expired.

    Could I move into the property if I then own it and their notice has expired. Surely as the new owner, I could move in even if they are still there.


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    #21
    athtrasna
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,420 ✭✭✭✭athtrasna


    kala85 wrote: »
    So how long more would that take.
    Just worried about buying a house that is presently rented and that the tenant wont move out when the notice has expired.

    Could I move into the property if I then own it and their notice has expired. Surely as the new owner, I could move in even if they are still there.

    You won't own it if you are taking out a mortgage as banks require vacant possession before they will release the funds

    It can take up to a year and sometimes even more to evict an overholding tenant. That's the vendor's problem at the moment


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    #22
    davindub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    HonestM wrote: »
    Hi All,

    I am hoping someone may be able to help. I have a family member who allowed a local woman to stay in his property whilst he was working abroad. She gave him some sob story and needed somewhere to stay urgently. He agreed as a short term measure just to help her out. There is no rental agreement and she insisted on paying him something which is a nominal fee certainly not full rent. He needs to sell the house. Placed it on the market but she made it difficult for the agent and kept refusing viewings saying it was inconvenient. It was taken off the market as it was pointless not being able to show it. She has agreed to move out but then doesnt. She keeps dictating what she will and won't do and basically says she is not leaving. What can he do? I have suggested changing the locks and packing her stuff into a van and taking it to her parents home. He is at his wits end. Any advice would be appreciated.


    Short term < 6 months or longer? what period of time are we talking about?

    Agree to move out - oral or written?


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    #23
    hytrogen
    Registered Users Posts: 952 ✭✭✭hytrogen


    Was it continuous payments or a once off?
    Is it or was it then his primary residence and has subsequently returned after his travels to eventually sell?


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    #24
    kala85
    Registered Users Posts: 1,894 ✭✭✭kala85


    athtrasna wrote: »
    You won't own it if you are taking out a mortgage as banks require vacant possession before they will release the funds

    It can take up to a year and sometimes even more to evict an overholding tenant. That's the vendor's problem at the moment

    How frequent does this happen?

    Whats the procedure for this , is it through the courts. Could the county council not find emergency accommodation for this tenant.

    They will have to get 24 weeks notice I think as they have been there six years). If the tenants delay moving out and it goes in overholding for another period of time,

    a I worried how long will it take to get into the property

    b Even though I have gone sale agreed on the property , in nine months time it could be worth more and the vendor could put it back on the market, meaning I have missed out on bidding on another property because of the debacle.


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    #25
    4ensic15
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    newacc2015 wrote: »
    I would say he will have to call a big law firm as in someone in the big 5 who is an expert on tenancy law to see how he can get her out.

    Most of the Big 5 won't deal with private clients and certainly don't specialise in residential property lettings. The fees would be more than the cost of an illegal eviction. I know someone who got a bill for 6k for writing a 2 page letter! Any solicitor can get a specialist barrister to sort it out at a much more reasonable cost.


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    #26
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    Hi there.

    Contact a solicitor is the first route to go.

    There are many ways to start and eviction process but the most important thing is that it is done lawfully.

    You wont get proper legal advice for free online that you can rely on.


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    #27
    testaccount123
    Registered Users Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    davindub wrote: »
    Short term < 6 months or longer? what period of time are we talking about?

    Agree to move out - oral or written?

    First person to ask a sensible question. If the tenant is in place less than six months landlord can terminate the tenancy for any reason.


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    #28
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,995 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    testaccount123 wrote: »
    First person to ask a sensible question. If the tenant is in place less than six months landlord can terminate the tenancy for any reason.

    But if the tenant doesn't leave, you have to evict through the proper measures.

    He needs to speak to a lawyer to be sure if it is or isn't a tenancy. If it isn't he can turf her out. If not, he has to go through the process.


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