I'm sick to death of being taxed to death !

RayCun

holyhead wrote: »

How else would describe handing over sums of money to the government for no reason?

Getting a large sum of money and having to give a small part of it to the government is not punishment. It's taxation.

Professor Moriarty

holyhead wrote: »

Once you pay income tax and vat it's should be none of the states business.

Wealth redistribution is the state's business. Successive governments have seen inheritance tax as an equitable way of redistributing wealth. That's how it rolls.

MeatTwoVeg

holyhead wrote: »

Once you pay income tax and vat it's should be none of the states business.

So presumably the State should up income tax and VAT or cut services to make up the shortfall?

No thanks, I'm happy that those inheriting more than the generous thresholds continue to make a modest contribution to society.

RayCun

holyhead wrote: »

Once you pay income tax and vat it's should be none of the states business.

why is income tax okay?
why is VAT okay?

holyhead

I didn't mind the water tax because, luckily I could afford it and I was getting something for it. I wouldn't mind the property tax if lets say it paid my waste collection for the year etc. This wealth redistribution is all well and good. But how about those that pay in getting something back. It seems like that those who don't pay in get the benefits. Hardly fair is it.

holyhead

RayCun wrote: »

why is income tax okay?
why is VAT okay?

Both are once off RayCun!

Professor Moriarty

holyhead wrote: »

I didn't mind the water tax because, luckily I could afford it and I was getting something for it. I wouldn't mind the property tax if lets say it paid my waste collection for the year etc. This wealth redistribution is all well and good. But how about those that pay in getting something back. It seems like that those who don't pay in get the benefits. Hardly fair is it.

An important word, 'seems'.

I'm going to guess that everyone contributing to this thread is doing quite well. I'm going to guess that they don't know what true deprivation is like and have never experienced real poverty.

RedPandaDan

holyhead wrote: »

Once you pay income tax and vat it's should be none of the states business.

Inheritence is income though.

When I work, I get paid, I get wealthier, and pay tax on it.
When I inherit, I get wealthier. Why shouldn't I pay tax on it?

Like, I can understand not liking taxes, but have some consistency here.

holyhead

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

An important word, 'seems'.

I'm going to guess that everyone contributing to this thread is doing quite well. I'm going to guess that they don't know what true deprivation is like and have never experienced real poverty.

That's an interesting point you raise. The theory goes that once someone is born they are entitled to at minimum a basic standard of living from cradle to grave. Completely agree. If I had my way everyone would have free health care, free education until 17/18, at minimum the right to a basic roof over their head either free or for a nominal weekly figure, free old folks and free decent burial.

I'm sure some would disagree but if we had those five principles then I think I would be happy to call Ireland a fair place to live for all.

Professor Moriarty

holyhead wrote: »

That's an interesting point you raise. The theory goes that once someone is born they are entitled to at minimum a basic standard of living from cradle to grave. Completely agree. If I had my way everyone would have free health care, free education until 17/18, at minimum the right to a basic roof over their head either free or for a nominal weekly figure, free old folks and free decent burial.

I'm sure some would disagree but if we had those five principles then I think I would be happy to call Ireland a fair place to live for all.

Absolutely. Obviously there would be some grey areas, but any society founded on those principles could be considered a fair society.

holyhead

RedPandaDan wrote: »

Inheritence is income though.

When I work, I get paid, I get wealthier, and pay tax on it.
When I inherit, I get wealthier. Why shouldn't I pay tax on it?

Like, I can understand not liking taxes, but have some consistency here.

Because the tax has already been paid on the money that put the inheritance together.

RedPandaDan

holyhead wrote: »

Both are once off RayCun!

holyhead wrote: »

Because the tax has already been paid on the money that put the inheritance together.

The money you pay in vat was money that was already taxed as income.

The money you pay in income tax was money someone paid you, and they would have paid tax when they earned that money, and received that money from someone who would have paid tax when they earned the money, and so on.

All money has been taxed at multiple stages along the line. Inheritance should be no different.

holyhead

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Absolutely. Obviously there would be some grey areas, but any society founded on those principles could be considered a fair society.

A gray area would be the free housing/education/health. Maybe limit it to those with or entitled to an Irish passport?

As much as I think inheritance tax is a nonsense I would happily pay it if those 5 principles we in place.

In all seriousness why is it not in place?

holyhead

RedPandaDan wrote: »

The money you pay in vat was money that was already taxed as income.

The money you pay in income tax was money someone paid you, and they would have paid tax when they earned that money, and received that money from someone who would have paid tax when they earned the money, and so on.

All money has been taxed at multiple stages along the line. Inheritance should be no different.

Multiple taxation is only justifiable in a fair society, principles of which I set out in an earlier post.

relax carry on

Some figures for tax receipts per tax head if anyone is interested. 400 million euro generated by CAT in 2015 out of a total tax take of 45785 million euro. Could those who wish to abolish or reduce the CAT tax head let us know which tax head they will increase to make up its shortfall?

http://www.revenue.ie/en/about/statistics/net-receipts.pdf

Professor Moriarty

holyhead wrote: »

A gray area would be the free housing/education/health. Maybe limit it to those with or entitled to an Irish passport?

As much as I think inheritance tax is a nonsense I would happily pay it if those 5 principles we in place.

In all seriousness why is it not in place?

Well, our constitution was an attempt to create a just society. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it's past its sell-by date.

Regarding limiting access to housing to those entitled to an Irish passport, for a start, we'd have to vote for an Irexit.

holyhead

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, our constitution was an attempt to create a just society. Unfortunately, in my opinion, it's past its sell-by date.

Regarding limiting access to housing to those entitled to an Irish passport, for a start, we'd have to vote for an Irexit.

I have no problem in an EU citizen coming to Ireland and working. But they would have to have paid into the system before they get something out of it otherwise with free movement the system would collapse.

Godge

NovemberJersey wrote: »

People keep insinuating I've this awful sense of entitlement, my farm has been in my family for 200 years, all I want is to be able to make a half decent living off it and pass it on to my own son, that's not a whole pile to ask for

It is an awful lot to ask for.

It prevents those who have nothing to start with competing with your son who inherits €2.5m. Even when it comes to a field coming up for sale, he can outbid someone starting off with nothing because he has the security to back up his bid.

Nobody is saying that the farm should be taken off him, just that he has to pay a little, very little compared to someone buying the farm, for the privilege of getting it for nothing from you.

I don't see a problem with that.

Professor Moriarty

holyhead wrote: »

I have no problem in an EU citizen coming to Ireland and working. But they would have to have paid into the system before they get something out of it otherwise with free movement the system would collapse.

Well, at the moment, essentially they are entitled to much that an Irish citizen is entitled to. IMO, on balance, giving these rights to other EU citizens is outweighed by the benefits of our membership of the EU.

holyhead

Godge wrote: »

It is an awful lot to ask for.

It prevents those who have nothing to start with competing with your son who inherits €2.5m. Even when it comes to a field coming up for sale, he can outbid someone starting off with nothing because he has the security to back up his bid.

Nobody is saying that the farm should be taken off him, just that he has to pay a little, very little compared to someone buying the farm, for the privilege of getting it for nothing from you.

I don't see a problem with that.

Is it really the State's role to level the playing field between this guy's son and let's say the next door neighbour? Is that not interfering in the free market where people are free to pursue and accumulate wealth providing they pay income tax.

holyhead

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Well, at the moment, essentially they are entitled to much that an Irish citizen is entitled to. IMO, on balance, giving these rights to other EU citizens is outweighed by the benefits of our membership of the EU.

Fair enough. The other sticking point with my 5 principles would be that anybody receiving dole etc would have to tangibly contribute to society in exchange for the dole. Money for nothing would not be entertained.

Godge

holyhead wrote: »

Is it really the State's role to level the playing field between this guy's son and let's say the next door neighbour? Is that not interfering in the free market where people are free to pursue and accumulate wealth providing they pay income tax.

I wasn't suggesting a 100% inheritance tax which would be what is required to level the playing field, so we can tone down the language.

I see a flat 20% inheritance tax as a very fair way of improving equality of opportunity. That is actually quite low by international standards.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

RedPandaDan wrote: »

Inheritence is income though.

When I work, I get paid, I get wealthier, and pay tax on it.
When I inherit, I get wealthier. Why shouldn't I pay tax on it?

Like, I can understand not liking taxes, but have some consistency here.

If you give €50 to your niece or nephew, would you be ok with a 33% tax rate? Say the first €10 is tax free.

Professor Moriarty

holyhead wrote: »

Fair enough. The other sticking point with my 5 principles would be that anybody receiving dole etc would have to tangibly contribute to society in exchange for the dole. Money for nothing would not be entertained.

Not everyone is able to work, however willing. Also, though a quid pro quo would be desirable, it really isn't as simple as "Pick up that shovel or you'll get no dole".

holyhead

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not everyone is able to work, however willing. Also, though a quid pro quo would be desirable, it really isn't as simple as "Pick up that shovel or you'll get no dole".

I get that Prof. Again no matter you say in these scenarios there are buts. As for its not so simple. Work doesn't have to be physical in the shovel sense. It could be checking in on elderly neighbours etc. You get my point? There are a myriad of ways people can contribute to society. But, where realistic, those who recieve must contribute to society or not get there payment. It is only fair to those that do work and pay taxes.

holyhead

Godge wrote: »

I wasn't suggesting a 100% inheritance tax which would be what is required to level the playing field, so we can tone down the language.

I see a flat 20% inheritance tax as a very fair way of improving equality of opportunity. That is actually quite low by international standards.

Inheritance tax has nothing to do with equality of opportunity. It's simply the Government seeing someone has died and wants a piece of the leftovers. Instead of the Government respecting the rights of the private individual to have property and liquid wealth.

Galwayguy35

Nobody has a problem with people on welfare who are looking for employment or those who for health reason can't work but there is no denying the fact that some sections of society are scamming the system and these need to be rooted out and told to get a job or lose the dole.

I've always worked and have no problem paying my fair share of tax and I'd pay more if the money was used to create a system like in the UK where there was free health care and services like rubbish collection etc.

NovemberJersey

Godge wrote: »

It is an awful lot to ask for.

It prevents those who have nothing to start with competing with your son who inherits €2.5m. Even when it comes to a field coming up for sale, he can outbid someone starting off with nothing because he has the security to back up his bid.

Nobody is saying that the farm should be taken off him, just that he has to pay a little, very little compared to someone buying the farm, for the privilege of getting it for nothing from you.

I don't see a problem with that.

Look that's your opinion but the law dictates my son won't have to pay any tax on our farm when he gets it… my son's forefathers including myself will have slaved all their lives away to hang onto our farm so I don't feel one bit aggreaved over the favourable tax laws

Farmland is Ireland is by far and away the most expensive in the world and it's price is in no way related to the profit that it generates. To be farming full time now you'd want 200 acres of land in my opinion and that would cost €2mn+ so a fella who started out with nothing doesn't have a chance of buying a worthwhile farm in the first place anyway

Godge

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Look that's your opinion but the law dictates my son won't have to pay any tax on our farm when he gets it… my son's forefathers including myself will have slaved all their lives away to hang onto our farm so I don't feel one bit aggreaved over the favourable tax laws

Farmland is Ireland is by far and away the most expensive in the world and it's price is in no way related to the profit that it generates. To be farming full time now you'd want 200 acres of land in my opinion and that would cost €2mn+ so a fella who started out with nothing doesn't have a chance of buying a worthwhile farm in the first place anyway

Oh I agree, that is the law. That doesn't stop me for hoping that it will be changed.

NovemberJersey

An awful lot of people have this childish idea in their heads that life is suppose to be fair, what's wrong with ye? Ye should all be old enough to know life isn't fair.

Some people get born into the right family, others happen purely by luck to be highly intelligent and thus have a massive advantage in life… others happen to be tall, small, fat, slim, good looking or ugly - nobody has much conrtrol over any of those things and some people just get fortunate and I don't see any reason to try drag down those who have luck on their side

I'd have no problem with someone inheriting €1 Billion and not having to pay any tax on it, my outlook would be best of luck to them

RayCun

holyhead wrote: »

Both are once off RayCun!

In what sense?
I pay income tax every month. I'll only pay inheritance tax a handful of times in my life, if at all.
If I pay for someone else's services, then I will have paid tax on my income and he will pay tax on his income, so both of us will have paid income tax on the same money.

RedPandaDan

NovemberJersey wrote: »

An awful lot of people have this childish idea in their heads that life is suppose to be fair, what's wrong with ye? Ye should all be old enough to know life isn't fair.

Some people get born into the right family, others happen purely by luck to be highly intelligent and thus have a massive advantage in life… others happen to be tall, small, fat, slim, good looking or ugly - nobody has much conrtrol over any of those things and some people just get fortunate and I don't see any reason to try drag down those who have luck on their side

I'd have no problem with someone inheriting €1 Billion and not having to pay any tax on it, my outlook would be best of luck to them

And post like that and talking about others have childish ideas?

How embarrassing.

Yourself isit

NovemberJersey wrote: »

An awful lot of people have this childish idea in their heads that life is suppose to be fair, what's wrong with ye? Ye should all be old enough to know life isn't fair.

Some people get born into the right family, others happen purely by luck to be highly intelligent and thus have a massive advantage in life… others happen to be tall, small, fat, slim, good looking or ugly - nobody has much conrtrol over any of those things and some people just get fortunate and I don't see any reason to try drag down those who have luck on their side

I'd have no problem with someone inheriting €1 Billion and not having to pay any tax on it, my outlook would be best of luck to them

Sure but that's because you inherited a €2.5M farm.

Also your farm isn't viable. You seem to be a libertarian who doesn't refuse government handouts.

marienbad

NovemberJersey wrote: »

An awful lot of people have this childish idea in their heads that life is suppose to be fair, what's wrong with ye? Ye should all be old enough to know life isn't fair.

Some people get born into the right family, others happen purely by luck to be highly intelligent and thus have a massive advantage in life… others happen to be tall, small, fat, slim, good looking or ugly - nobody has much conrtrol over any of those things and some people just get fortunate and I don't see any reason to try drag down those who have luck on their side

I'd have no problem with someone inheriting €1 Billion and not having to pay any tax on it, my outlook would be best of luck to them

And on top of all that you get nearly a 1000 euro a week in grants , how unfair can it get !

RedPandaDan

Yourself isit wrote: »

Sure but that's because you inherited a €2.5M farm.

Also your farm isn't viable. You seem to be a libertarian who doesn't refuse government handouts.

Hey, listen to the man. If you have a problem with this you should have had the foresight to have rich parents like he did! :rolleyes:

holyhead

RayCun wrote: »

In what sense?
I pay income tax every month. I'll only pay inheritance tax a handful of times in my life, if at all.
If I pay for someone else's services, then I will have paid tax on my income and he will pay tax on his income, so both of us will have paid income tax on the same money.

Let's say I earn 500e a week. I spend every penny every week but on this friday pay check I have a cheque in my hand for 400e. I have paid my 20% tax.
You and I are out shopping. I take a bad turn and die suddenly but my will is such you are to get any remaining money in my estate. Lets pretend there is no threshold on inheritance tax. You would theoretically have to give the Govt 80e based on 20%.

I get people don't see the punishment argument. I also hear people when they say well the person inheriting is better off than before the person died.

My essential point is once the tax has been paid on the money while the person was alive then the subsequent recipient shouldn't be penalised for inheriting.

RedPandaDan

holyhead wrote: »

Let's say I earn 500e a week. I spend every penny every week but on this friday pay check I have a cheque in my hand for 400e. I have paid my 20% tax.
You and I are out shopping. I take a bad turn and die suddenly but my will is such you are to get any remaining money in my estate. Lets pretend there is no threshold on inheritance tax. You would theoretically have to give the Govt 80e based on 20%.

I get people don't see the punishment argument. I also hear people when they say well the person inheriting is better off than before the person died.

My essential point is once the tax has been paid on the money while the person was alive then the subsequent recipient shouldn't be penalised for inheriting.

But why is that only for inheritance and not for other taxes?

holyhead

RedPandaDan wrote: »

And post like that and talking about others have childish ideas?

How embarrassing.

In fairness to him I think his essential point is correct albeit perhaps clumsily stated maybe. Life isn't fair. The Priest might stand at the altar and say we are all created equally but only in death are we truly equal.

holyhead

RedPandaDan wrote: »

But why is that only for inheritance and not for other taxes?

What other taxes RED?

TheAnalyst_

I was in the same place a few years ago. There is only one way out of this mess and that is to leave. Can you imagine having all that tax money as spare cash in a similar cost country. It's every bit as good as you imagined. 
So much stress just lifts and you can buy whatever you like.

NovemberJersey

Does anyone remember the character Malvolio from William Shakespeare's play "The Twelfth Night"? He ever so eloquently sums up the quandary we have on our hands "some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them" - I was one of those who was born great and it's not my fault quite frankly

musicfan1ie

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

holyhead wrote: »

How else would describe handing over sums of money to the government for no reason?

The reason is wealth redistribution. It's wealth redistribution.

How do you propose they pay for it? Where does a family just find this massive amount of cash. They'd have to sell the farm etc and who knows how long that would take. Unless they have a spare 100k sitting in a bank account. Wealthy does not mean cash rich or vast incomes to pay it.

Governments make social decisions all the time - why give child benefits, income tax allowances to married couples, pensions, social housing, transfer of assets between spouses etc. Some benefit me, some don't!!

But I'd rather not go back to days where a wife or husband had to sell the family home in order to pay a big Inheritance tax bill because their partner died. Not a nice way to treat people at the lowest point in their life

Jimmy Garlic

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Look that's your opinion but the law dictates my son won't have to pay any tax on our farm when he gets it… my son's forefathers including myself will have slaved all their lives away to hang onto our farm so I don't feel one bit aggreaved over the favourable tax laws

Farmland is Ireland is by far and away the most expensive in the world and it's price is in no way related to the profit that it generates. To be farming full time now you'd want 200 acres of land in my opinion and that would cost €2mn+ so a fella who started out with nothing doesn't have a chance of buying a worthwhile farm in the first place anyway

There is definitively artificial manipulation of land value in this country. I recently inquired about a 12 acre holding that would be handy for me as it would connect my farm together as it is in two parts. Really low wet rushy stuff, marginal land, not good for much really, about one third of it floods every winter. They are looking for 150 grand for it! over ten grand an acre. The mind boggles.

RedPandaDan

holyhead wrote: »

What other taxes RED?

Say, the income tax I pay.

The money that I earn was already taxed before I received it. The guy who paid me would have paid income tax on the money when he received it.

When I pay income tax, that money being taxed a second time.

NovemberJersey

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

There is definitively artificial manipulation of land value in this country. I recently inquired about a 12 acre holding that would be handy for me as it would connect my farm together as it is in two parts. Really low wet rushy stuff, marginal land, not good for much really, about one third of it floods every winter. They are looking for 150 grand for it! over ten grand an acre. The mind boggles.

They know they've got you over a barrel for it since it would connect up your farm, probably best off you get a solicitor to bid on it for you and you personally tell everyone that you've got no interest in it as they'll obviously have to set their sights lower if they think your not interested

holyhead

RedPandaDan wrote: »

Say, the income tax I pay.

The money that I earn was already taxed before I received it. The guy who paid me would have paid income tax on the money when he received it.

When I pay income tax, that money being taxed a second time.

Your money/assets are just that yours. You should be entitled to give it to whom you want without the recipient being taxed on it. It should be none of the State's business how you disperse your assets or who recieved them provided they were accumulated legally.

RedPandaDan

holyhead wrote: »

Your money/assets are just that yours. You should be entitled to give it to whom you want without the recipient being taxed on it. It should be none of the State's business how you disperse your assets or who recieved them provided they were accumulated legally.

Sorry, are you arguing that in addition to not having inheritance tax, I shouldn't have to pay income tax either?

holyhead

RedPandaDan wrote: »

Sorry, are you arguing that in addition to not having inheritance tax, I shouldn't have to pay income tax either?

Yes there should be no inheritance tax. Income tax yes. Everyone should pay income tax in order to pay for essential services etc. I can understand vat and corporation tax as well. To an extent I can understand capital gains.

I get that taxation is a redistribution of wealth. Though to what purpose? We don't live in a fair society. We should have free healthcare, free education to 17/18, basic housing for all either free or at worst at nominal weekly rent, free old folks and free decent burial. Until we have those five basic provision for all citizens then we, in my opinion can't call ourselves a fair society.

If we had a fair society I could reluctantly tolerate the principal of inheritance tax.

marienbad

NovemberJersey wrote: »

Does anyone remember the character Malvolio from William Shakespeare's play "The Twelfth Night"? He ever so eloquently sums up the quandary we have on our hands "some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them" - I was one of those who was born great and it's not my fault quite frankly

and on top of all that the government gives you a 1000 euro a week because I am so great and it is still not your fault .

RedPandaDan

holyhead wrote: »

Yes there should be no inheritance tax. Income tax yes. Everyone should pay income tax in order to pay for essential services etc. I can understand vat and corporation tax as well. To an extent I can understand capital gains.

Inheritance tax can be used to pay for essential services too.